Liberal Christians

Vicomte13

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True - lol - but I figure with the number of people that believe sincerely stuff like Obama was born in Kenya and that Hillary ran a child sex ring out of the basement of a pizza joint - the courtesy of attaching "alleged" (considering the comparative weight of the allegations) is not one I feel like granting. :)

Trump is a birther. I certainly hope that he has ordered the CIA and the FBI and ther Justice Department to produce to him every record concerning Obama's birth, and that if he discovers that Obama was born in Kenya that he takes very dramatic legal action.

I keep hpoing the Justice Department will indict Hillary for her server and Bill for the money they accept from foreign governments

But then, I keep hoping that Trump will fire various people and he keeps not doing it, so I figure that I.m always going to be disappointed.
 
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Vicomte13

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My dad used to say “if wishes were horses, then beggars might ride” lol

If wishes were horses then beggars would ride.
If turnips were watches I'd wear one by my side.

And if pigs had wings, they'd be eagles.
 
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DZoolander

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Trump is a birther. I certainly hope that he has ordered the CIA and the FBI and ther Justice Department to produce to him every record concerning Obama's birth, and that if he discovers that Obama was born in Kenya that he takes very dramatic legal action.

I keep hpoing the Justice Department will indict Hillary for her server and Bill for the money they accept from foreign governments

But then, I keep hoping that Trump will fire various people and he keeps not doing it, so I figure that I.m always going to be disappointed.

Gotta admit - the whole email server thing never really resonated with me as an issue.

Probably because I work with computers, and I set up and run my own private email server too. Heck, give me $100 for the half hour of work, and $20.00 mo, and you can have your own, too. lol So for me having one just feels like "big whoop".

Then you get into the fact that it must have been the worst kept secret in Washington. I mean, it isn't like people were emailing her at a state.gov address - and it was surreptitiously being routed to her server. Rather - people were emailing her at clintonemail.com. Every time you sent her an email - there it is. There ya see it...right in front of your eyes on every email! What did ya think that was? Clintonemail.com? Of course that's a private email server...and if it was such a risk or concern...why didn't ya make a huge stink about it when it was actually happening?
 
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Vicomte13

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Gotta admit - the whole email server thing never really resonated with me as an issue.

Probably because I work with computers, and I set up and run my own private email server too. Heck, give me $100 for the half hour of work, and $20.00 mo, and you can have your own, too. lol So for me having one just feels like "big whoop".

Then you get into the fact that it must have been the worst kept secret in Washington. I mean, it isn't like people were emailing her at a state.gov address - and it was surreptitiously being routed to her server. Rather - people were emailing her at clintonemail.com. Every time you sent her an email - there it is. There ya see it...right in front of your eyes on every email! What did ya think that was? Clintonemail.com? Of course that's a private email server...and if it was such a risk or concern...why didn't ya make a huge stink about it when it was actually happening?

The problem isn't just that she had it (she's not a private citizen, like you, and has no right to "do it her own way" with government information) The problem is that it was loaded with government secrets, including classified information, and foreign governments hacked it and got that information. People go to jail for a long, long time for that sort of thing. There's no "I didn't know" defense when it comes to national secrets. She knew. She set the system up. It was illegal to have it. It was illegal to have ANY of that e-mail on that. And she and her surrogates denied everything - we only found out what was on that server because of what was on WIENER'S server from Huma Abedin, which contained a portion of what was on Hillary's server.

Good old Wiener... but then, that's really the subject of this thread, isn't it?
 
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Major1

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The Ten Commandments are part of a contract between YHWH and the Hebrews. They never applied to anybody else.

That's not to say that God didn't elsewhere tell the world not to kill people or commit adultery. He did.

Jesus did not tell the world that statuary was evil. So Catholic Churches are full of statues and pictures that depict Jesus and saints, the Father, the Holy Spirit, etc.

Our Protestant opponents tell us that these are graven images in violation of the Ten Commandments.
If we were Hebrews, they'd have a point. We're not, so that's that.
God performs miracles at Lourdes right under the noses of statutes and images. If he were offended by them, you'd think he wouldn't. But he does. So apparently HE'S not offended by Catholic statuary. That's good enough for me and us Catholics.
It doesn't satisfy the Protestants, though.

I guess they needn't worry about it, since Lourdes is a place where Mary showed up, and she doesn't seem likely to get a friendly reception if she shows up a Protestant Church - she'd be dismissed as a visiting demon seeking to mislead!

So God doesn't send her there. Which is fine. But if you have an incurable disease, it's nice to have Lourdes to go to and Mary's statue to gaze upon and Mary to pray to while you are being miraculously healed. Prots don't have to worry about any of those problems. And they never will.

I have heard of and read more excuses from Catholic believers than I can remember, to account for their choices in life but I have never heard the one you just came up with.

You just said that because YOU are not a Jew, YOU do not have to keep the 10 Commandments.

Talk about "LIBERALISM" in the world of Christianity!!!!

I for one, instead of believing that YOU came up with that theology on your own, am going to believe that you copied and pasted it from a Catholic website. That way you will have an excuse when I correct your theology.

The bottom line Biblical truth of this is actually very simple. Man has always been under law.

Didn't God mark Cain for killing Abel in Gen. 4:15?

Now answer this one ....wasn't it God who destroyed all but Noah and family because man was wicked in Gen. 6:5?

Then what about Sodom and Gomorrah? Wasn't it God who destroyed both cities for their gross immorality and homosexuality????

Now consider this fact.........These examples were before the Ten Commandments were given.

Now then, according to the Bible Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law, including the Ten Commandments, with his death on the cross.

Gal 3:23-26.......
"But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor (to bring us) unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus."

With your own Bible open, when you read that isn't it contradicting what you said????

Now consider the actual words of God in Mat 5:17......
"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil."

Then Paul's words in Col 2:14 ........
"having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross".

What about Heb 8:6-7 .....
"But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. 7 For if that first (covenant) had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second."

Even though we are not under the Law of Moses, we are still under law.

Jesus said, Mat 5:27 ......
"Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery: but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart'.

YOU have said that the Law is not for us today, but the world is filled with hatred, murder, violence, wars, lying, cheating, and sexual perversion and promiscuity, yet you as a professing Christians claim that we are not required to keep the Ten Commandments. Few seem to realize that the problems of the world are a direct result of not keeping these laws.
 
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Vicomte13

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You just said that because YOU are not a Jew, YOU do not have to keep the 10 Commandments.

Talk about "LIBERALISM" in the world of Christianity!!!!

No, talk about correctly reading the Scripture and parsing it properly. You are not subject to the Ten Commandments. It is part of the Hebrew Covenant, which was between YHWH and the Hebrews, and nobody else.

You ARE subject to the commandments of Jesus, which overlap somewhat with the Ten Commandments, and with the commandments visible in Genesis to Noah (against shedding blood) and through Pharaoh and Abimelech.

I stopped reading after your first sentence, because you were getting yourself into high moral dudgeon about Catholics, but you immediately crossed the line of reality by refusing to read the limits in the Sinai Covenant. You want to add to the Covenant by putting yourself under it. You go ahead and do that, but you're breaking it by doing so - by adding yourself to the coverage of the law.

No matter how much you bloviate about how the law applies, if you READ IT you will see that it DOES NOT. So you will have to look elsewhere in your book for law. The only place that you will find the law that binds ME (and you, though you don't realize it), is in the words of Jesus, the entirety of which are found in the four Gospels, the beginning of Acts, and Revelation.

Have a nice a day.
 
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Major1

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I know. I reject that. God is the final authority, and he has revealed many important things since the last book of the Bible was written. The Bible is good, but it is neither necessary nor complete.

The Quakers, who listen directly to the Holy Spirit together as individuals and share what they hear, are more right than anybody else as to dealing with God.

But their one dogma, of pacifism, which they DO enforce, had it been the Christian doctrine they make of it, would have meant that the Catholic Church would have had to roll over and let the Muslims conquer all of Europe, instead of standing and fighting them off in France, in Spain, in Portugal, in Italy and at Vienna.

And then this would all be moot because we'd be talking about Allah and the Koran.

If it was NOT for the Bible.......YOU would not be able to call yourself a Christian.
You in fact would not be a saved person at all.
No one would be.

Your thinking shows a real lack of thought and learning and I do not mean to harm you by saying that. It is that it is very clear that you do not understand some very basic things of life and spiritual matters.

I say that due to your comment of........
'The Bible is good, but it is neither necessary nor complete."

That and along with the comment of not having to obey the 10 Commandments as they are only for Jews, pretty much says it all for me.
 
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Vicomte13

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YOU have said that the Law is not for us today, but the world is filled with hatred, murder, violence, wars, lying, cheating, and sexual perversion and promiscuity, yet you as a professing Christians claim that we are not required to keep the Ten Commandments. Few seem to realize that the problems of the world are a direct result of not keeping these laws.

Nobody is under the Ten Commandments. Those were for the Hebrews. We are definitely under law: the Law of Jesus. Everything we're under, Jesus said. So look at Jesus. The Ten Commandments is historical law for another tribe. There is overlap, but it is not law for you and me. And that will remain true.

It's an important distinction. In your error of believing that the Ten are for you, you then have the problem of wriggling out from under the kosher laws, the sex laws, the clothing laws, etc. Wrapping up the laws we don't want to follow and calling those "mere ceremonial laws" is a pure tradition of Christians who make the error you make. Jesus never said that.

Trying to bootstrap Paul, a mere minister, into the role of God so that we are "no longer under the Law" doesn't work, because (a) Paul is not God, and (b) you say we're still under the Ten Commandments, which is just part of the Law.

No matter how you twist and turn to try to save parts of the Hebrew Law, you're wrong. That Law was for the Hebrews, in Israel and headed there, just there, just them. It never reveals life after death, nor promises salvation for following it: absolutely silent on that. ALL that the Law promises, to Hebrews, is a secure farm, in Israel, in this life, if they follow all of it. That's it.

What you want to do is cut and paste the parts you want of it onto Jesus' promise of life after death in Paradise and the City of God. Which is massively adding and subtracting from the Law - something Jesus said you cannot do.

Truth is, that law was for them, over there. A different law and covenant are for us - the Law of Jesus, and Jesus does not adopt the Sinai Covenant as a requirement of salvation. Indeed, the very opposite: Jesus says that nothing can be changed in the law until the end of time.

I realize that you don't understand these things, and I'm pretty sure you're going to disregard everything I just wrote. You're going to just yell your head off about Catholics like me, and you're not going to engage your critical thinking faculties and see it, even though it's plain as the nose on your face if you just look.

But we've been around the mulberry bush twice. I'm tired of it. Believe what you want.

We can't kill people because Jesus said not to, not because YHWH said it to the Hebrews.
We don't have to keep the Sabbath because we were never given the Sabbath
 
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rjs330

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Actually there are different degrees of sinfulness and guilt, though one sin makes you a transgressor like the rest, which i could show by God's grace, but its not a big issue here.

Well that may be true, particularly to a believer. That is a different discussion. However, the sinner is lost regardless of his category of sinfulness. A serial killer is no more lost than the man who does not kill and lives a typical life committing sins such as lying or taking the Lords name in vain. They are equally lost and equally guilty before God. A homosexual is no more lost that the man who lies.
 
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rjs330

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If we don't enforce the social welfare state (the impulse to take care of the poor, sick, orphan and old is Christian) through taxation, people will not voluntarily give enough to prevent starvation and utter penury at the bottom. We know this from all of the thousands of years of history everywhere in the world BEFORE the social welfare state.

So, while it would be grand if everybody gave enough of their own free will, they do not, they never have, and they never will.

Our choices, really, are to leave everybody free to do as he pleases - and accept the desperation, lack of medical care, starvation - and periodic violent revolutions - from the bottom, or to use the power of government to take about a third of income from everybody so that nobody starves or dies in the streets or for want of medicine, we don't have revolutions, and all we have to do is listen to people in general whine about their taxes, and Christians in particular whine about their freewill being violated through mandatory charity.

It is true: everybody's free will IS being violated, to an extent, in order to feed everybody. Christianity had 1600 years as the official, established religion everywhere, and nowhere did Christians ever voluntarily give enough to stop the hunger and stop the penury.

The mandatory, involuntary, enforced-by-the-gun social welfare state has done a much, much better job educating everybody, feeding everybody (including foreigners in crisis), establishing universal health clinics (they're not great, but they get the job done), social security to provide income to all of the old, disability insurance.

The social welfare state is imperfect, but it is two orders of magnitude superior to anything the Christians ever cobbled together on their own. Voluntary Christianity failed its mission, and so the government had to take over and add compulsion to accomplish that which Christians SHOULD HAVE, but NEVER DID, on their own. Christianity in ideal is wonderful. In practice if falls far, far short of what it should do. And when it comes to charity, that means high death rates, sickness and utter destitution for lots of people. It also means those secret graveyards and mass rapes in the old orphanages and poorhouses, where unsupervised Christians abused their charges.

Christianity failed in this duty, so the democratic state stepped up, largely took it over, and compels its people, including Christians, to provide what is NEEDED to meet the minimum requirements of the poor, not merely what people gave out of the goodness of their hearts.

People always did give out of their good hearts, but it was never enough.

To many Christians that is good enough. They don't want the mandatory charity of the state. They want to be left with more of their money, so THEY can choose what and whom to give to.

No.

No, that does not work.

All history in all Christian countries shows that Christians never give enough to address the problem.
Addressing the problem is more important than Christian liberty. Christian liberty makes you feel good about giving, while people literally stay illiterate and starve. Not good enough, not sufficient.

Social welfare has been the solution. We tried relying on Christian welfare and generosity for a millennium and a half. It was never enough. Also, not everybody is a Christian. There is no reason to let the atheist escape also having to pay a third of his income to keep his fellow countrymen alive.

People don't like it? So what? Obey, pay, or rot in prison. It isn't voluntary because people never will voluntarily give enough. So they have to be coerced by force - or we can let the poor die in larger numbers and have periodic bloody revolutions as of old.

I do understand that people don't want to pay taxes that high, that they feel that it is violative of their consciences, that it's not "Christian charity". I hear it and I feel for them. My taxes are also too high and I don't like it either.

Nevertheless I, and everybody else, have to be coerced to give more than we want to as taxes, so that everybody can live, and read, and the sick be cared for, and the old poor not all thrown back on the resources of their children (if they have any). That's the way it is, it isn't going to change because it CAN'T change unless we're willing to tolerate massive suffering, and in the end responsible Christian people know that. So we voted, as a people, to have a social welfare state. This was Christian, it was the right thing to do. Those who think otherwise can whine and moan and point to passages in their book, but they will be ignored, by everybody, including the rest of us Christians, because they're wrong.

For all the protests, we know, in our hearts, that their motivation is always narrow-minded greedy self-interest, so we discard all of the "Christian" arguments against social welfare as exactly what they are: dishonest, untrue, and pointless. They're never going to get anywhere and make themselves out to be immoral by making the arguments. The best answer is to man up, shut up, pay the taxes, and be grateful you live in a Christian country where enough people understand that we all have to be coerced to pay more than we would ever give voluntarily, so that we all have that safety net if life throws us off the horse.

That's just the truth. It's unfortunate that it has to be said, but apparently it does.

It's like young people whining about Social Security. No, you will not be able to save up more yourself to cover you in all the ways that Social Security does. The young all think they are much smarter than they are. They all think they can do better. They're all wrong. Perhaps we remember making those arguments ourselves. As we get older and realize how aleatory life really is, how we're not in charge, and how difficult it is to keep things together for the long haul, those of us with any wisdom come to thank our lucky stars that society ignores the opinions of greedy young people in their ignorance. If we did end Social Security, 90% of the old would end up dependent on welfare. If we did away with welfare also, they would end up dependent on their children. And millions of them would starve.

No, we're not going back to that. Yes, we will have redistributive social welfare and the taxation that goes with it. Yes, it is Christian. No, the Churches cannot, and will not cover the gap: they never did before, and the society is much less Christian than it used to be. Yes, we've all heard the whingeing and moralizing. No, we don't listen to a word of it. Yes, when YOU whinge and moralize about social welfare and taxes, you sound unchristian, uncharitable and foolish, because you are. Suck it up, be quiet, and pull at the oars with everybody else. Social welfare is part of the burden of Adam. And yes, it's Christian.

Forcing people to give is not Christian. It is not a Christian value. Christians are to give, but there are not enough Christians to be able to support all the needs. There are far more unbelievers than there are believers. The government is a force. It forces people to give. Neither Jesus nor the apostles said anyone should be forced to give. It is not biblical in any fashion. The bible does tell us to pay our taxes. But that is all it says. It doesn't say that we should not participate in a political process or want out taxes lowered.

In fact if you are a christian you are under a harsher law than if you are not. A Paul said, you should not take advantage of your fellow believers. He who does not work, should not eat. If you do not take care of your family you are worse than an infidel.

However, that does not apply to the world. We as believers should give to those in need. And we do. Far more than anyone else does. But we cannot do it all. But as I said, it is NOT BIBLICAL to force people to give.
 
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Major1

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Nobody is under the Ten Commandments. Those were for the Hebrews. We are definitely under law: the Law of Jesus. Everything we're under, Jesus said. So look at Jesus. The Ten Commandments is historical law for another tribe. There is overlap, but it is not law for you and me. And that will remain true.

It's an important distinction. In your error of believing that the Ten are for you, you then have the problem of wriggling out from under the kosher laws, the sex laws, the clothing laws, etc. Wrapping up the laws we don't want to follow and calling those "mere ceremonial laws" is a pure tradition of Christians who make the error you make. Jesus never said that.

Trying to bootstrap Paul, a mere minister, into the role of God so that we are "no longer under the Law" doesn't work, because (a) Paul is not God, and (b) you say we're still under the Ten Commandments, which is just part of the Law.

No matter how you twist and turn to try to save parts of the Hebrew Law, you're wrong. That Law was for the Hebrews, in Israel and headed there, just there, just them. It never reveals life after death, nor promises salvation for following it: absolutely silent on that. ALL that the Law promises, to Hebrews, is a secure farm, in Israel, in this life, if they follow all of it. That's it.

What you want to do is cut and paste the parts you want of it onto Jesus' promise of life after death in Paradise and the City of God. Which is massively adding and subtracting from the Law - something Jesus said you cannot do.

Truth is, that law was for them, over there. A different law and covenant are for us - the Law of Jesus, and Jesus does not adopt the Sinai Covenant as a requirement of salvation. Indeed, the very opposite: Jesus says that nothing can be changed in the law until the end of time.

I realize that you don't understand these things, and I'm pretty sure you're going to disregard everything I just wrote. You're going to just yell your head off about Catholics like me, and you're not going to engage your critical thinking faculties and see it, even though it's plain as the nose on your face if you just look.

But we've been around the mulberry bush twice. I'm tired of it. Believe what you want.

We can't kill people because Jesus said not to, not because YHWH said it to the Hebrews.
We don't have to keep the Sabbath because we were never given the Sabbath

You are correct............believe as you wish to believe. Forget the Scriptures and do want you want to do. There for a moment I forgot that you are a Catholic believer so that is what you do anyway.

But for everyone else, the fact is that we CAN NOT KEEP the 10 Commandments..............
However we are certainly supposed to try. There is the rub.

It is true that the Law does not save anyone, and the Law never saved anyone, however the 10 Commandments apply to ALL people because Jesus taught us clearly that He came to FULFILL the Law right down to every little dot and comma.

There is always someone raising that stale old argument that the Law is a sign only for the Jews.

But even when it is pointed out that Law can not be only for the Jews when there were no Jews when the Ten Commandments were given. There were in fact no Jews in the world for at least 2,000 years after creation so it is in fact impossible for the law to be only for them.

Well, enough said. As my friend said, "Believe as you wish".
 
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Major1

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Forcing people to give is not Christian. It is not a Christian value. Christians are to give, but there are not enough Christians to be able to support all the needs. There are far more unbelievers than there are believers. The government is a force. It forces people to give. Neither Jesus nor the apostles said anyone should be forced to give. It is not biblical in any fashion. The bible does tell us to pay our taxes. But that is all it says. It doesn't say that we should not participate in a political process or want out taxes lowered.

In fact if you are a christian you are under a harsher law than if you are not. A Paul said, you should not take advantage of your fellow believers. He who does not work, should not eat. If you do not take care of your family you are worse than an infidel.

However, that does not apply to the world. We as believers should give to those in need. And we do. Far more than anyone else does. But we cannot do it all. But as I said, it is NOT BIBLICAL to force people to give.

Agreed!

I also think that you would agree that the job of the Church and Christianity itself IS NOT to reform the world and government.

The mission of the church is to get out the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ so that men will here it, believe it and get saved and then they will be able to do the work need for social reform.

Thoughts?
 
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Major1

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Well that may be true, particularly to a believer. That is a different discussion. However, the sinner is lost regardless of his category of sinfulness. A serial killer is no more lost than the man who does not kill and lives a typical life committing sins such as lying or taking the Lords name in vain. They are equally lost and equally guilty before God. A homosexual is no more lost that the man who lies.

I here you. Since that is your thinking, I do need to ask you your thoughts on several Bible quotes.

Matt. 12:31-32 is of course the so called "unpardonable sin"..............
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come."

Does that indicate that some sin is worse than another by the words......"Every sin & blasphemy".

1 Corth. 6:18..........
"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body."

That seems to me to be saying sexual sins are different than "other" sins.

John 19:11............
"Jesus answered, “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.”

Does that validate your thinking or contradict it???

Matthew 7:3 ....................
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

The idea that "all sins are equal in God's eyes" comes from the idea that any one sin will lead to death. If we commit a single sin, we are as guilty (in God's eyes) as if we had committed the worst sin--regardless of which sin we committed.

It's based on the idea that God's holiness is so extreme, that even one transgression is greater than he can accept. This idea is supported with two key verses

James 2:10 ................
"For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it".

Romans 3:23 ............
"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God".

The argument goes, therefore, that if even the smallest sin prevents us from attaining the perfection that God calls us to seek, then that one single sin is as great as the worst sin.

We can reconcile these two seemingly opposing viewpoints: we can clearly see that some sins are greater than others, but that any sin will prevent us from going to heaven without the saving grace and sacrifice of Jesus.

Essentially, any one sin is sufficient to keep us from God, but all sins are not the same.

Can one sin be worse than another sin, or are all sins equal?
 
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Yonny Costopoulis

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so tell me why would a president who has all the money anyone could possibly want ALREADY, want to become president at age 71?

This is demonstrably incorrect. If Trump had all the money he wanted he would not have ran conman game with Trump University, scamming last dollars from desperate people, sometimes leaving them deep in debt.

Trump University: It's Worse Than You Think
Trump University Suit Settlement Approved by Judge
Trump University: Yes, It Was a Massive Scam | National Review
Trump settles fraud case against Trump University for $25M
 
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redleghunter

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All history in all Christian countries shows that Christians never give enough to address the problem.
Christians can (and do in many cases) great work in their local communities in the US. It's the horrible poverty and famine we see in third world nations where there needs to be a united national and international effort to bring relief. Even the millions the Vatican provides does not buy huge cargo aircraft and bodies to deliver the greatest need. You do need standing governments to that piece.

My observation (and some experience) has been that Christian national and international relief efforts work best when combining with other NGOs and government.
 
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FireDragon76

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Alot of the issues in the third world are structural. Flying airplanes full of food over there could actually destroy their rural, farm based economies.

Micro-loans are a better idea.

I've been to Episcopal churches that collected money to purchase solar panels. I actually thought of suggesting we give bicycles to Africans at our church, rather than just focusing on buying animals. A bike could improve an African's standard of living alot, it's an investment in ways that is difficult for Americans to appreciate. A bicycle creates more potential free time for the typical African family, who spend alot of time walking to towns or villages.
 
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