American Conservative Republican Jesus

[FireDragon76]

If we truly understand Jesus, we should be able to see Him in the law and the prophets.

That's exactly how we read the Scriptures. But we should never read Jesus in light of the Law and Prophets. As Luther said, we should not turn him into "another Moses".

 

[RaymondG]

Then yes, I would say you are probably correct. We have generally taught this in this fashion... but remember, this is just a picture.

Before Adam fell it was 'as if' he was plugged into God. God was his source for everything including information. But when Adam ate of the tree of good and evil and his eyes were opened to BOTH... it was 'as if' he unplugged and he then began to have to choose between the two. We still have to choose today... God sets before us life and death, blessing and cursing... and we are expected to choose life. But we have to be able to judge between good and evil or light and darkness in order to make the right choice.

I am not suggesting we run around in judgement of one another, I am simply saying that the bible reveals that we do live having to judge (righteously) so that we make sure WE are on the correct path. Why haven't I dropped everything and run to Islam, Free Masonry, or anything else? Because I have studied and judged that those two I mention (as examples) are not in line with the harmony of Scripture. I had to judge to make that determination BUT I judged without condemning those who are currently Muslims.

I understand what you are saying now.

I see judging and condemning as separate. First you judge good vs evil.....then you reward or condemn. I cant find fault in either one, or I'd be a hypocrite.....I do, however, state which side I feel the blessings and curses are on.

I like the plugged in analogy....yet I believe this is possible and the goal of man today...... We got unplugged when we started eating of the forbidden fruit. Now we must learn to put down the fruit and search for and eat of the tree of life......after which, we shall die no more.

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

 

[Ken Rank]

I like the plugged in analogy....yet I believe this is possible and the goal of man today...... We got unplugged when we started eating of the forbidden fruit. Now we must learn to put down the fruit and search for and eat of the tree of life......after which, we shall die no more.

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Well the end of the teaching shows that when we come in faith to the Lord and submit to him "as LORD" then we are really plugging back in and allowing Him to determine our path. What is good or evil is defined by Him, we accept those definitions and abhor and avoid the evil.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think a relationship with Jesus is about "defining evil". I think its more about showing the same hospitality to strangers, the oppressed, and the vulnerable that he did. Our ethics must therefore be personalist and relational. No bronze age law, no matter where it comes from, can circumscribe that.

 

[Ken Rank]

I don't think a relationship with Jesus is about "defining evil". I think its more about showing the same hospitality to strangers, the oppressed, and the vulnerable that he did.

That is fine and also not what I am talking about. We live having to choose between good and evil. Each and every day sin is shoved in our faces... on TV, radio, magazines we have to look at while checking out of the grocery store. It is in the conversation of those around us, and so much more. And we have to endure that, and choose righteousness over it. That means we have judged between righteousness and unrighteousness and didn't condemn the sinner, just chose the path of light over the path others walk on.

Be blessed.
Ken

 

[Grip Docility]

John 7:24 Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."

I can certainly list off many verses like the above. We are judged as we judge and we are not to judge unto condemnation... but are to judge.



Psalm 75:7 But God is the Judge; He puts down one and exalts another.

Psalm 50:6 And the heavens declare His righteousness, For God Himself is judge. Selah.

2 Tim 4:8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

Again, I can list many more... God is judge, that is Scripture.

Aha!

God is Judge! We aren’t to reach for His tree of wisdom.

He is He and we are we.

I do believe the accuser of the brethren was a moral judge... and Jesus called moral judges of the time He was first physically with us... serpents.

This ties to your earlier discussion. After all Isaiah 14:14 “to be like God”

 

[Grip Docility]

That is fine and also not what I am talking about. We live having to choose between good and evil. Each and every day sin is shoved in our faces... on TV, radio, magazines we have to look at while checking out of the grocery store. It is in the conversation of those around us, and so much more. And we have to endure that, and choose righteousness over it. That means we have judged between righteousness and unrighteousness and didn't condemn the sinner, just chose the path of light over the path others walk on.

Be blessed.
Ken

Now, this is well! We have enough of a Plank to focus on, we need not look beyond to others “specs”.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think we are capable of choosing true righteousness. Good and evil are above our pay-grade. God gave the people holy to him alone, a holy law and... the Son of God was executed anyways. Exposing a deep sickness in humanity that goes all the way back.

It seems to me there is a new covenant based on grace, inagurated in Jesus own flesh and blood. We live in acordance with that when our lives proclaim God's loving reign. Not when we "live the right way".

 

[Grip Docility]

I don't think we are capable of choosing true righteousness. Good and evil are above our pay-grade. God gave the people holy to him alone, a holy law and... the Son of God was executed anyways. Exposing a deep sickness in humanity that goes all the way back.

It seems to me there is a new covenant based on grace, inagurated in Jesus own flesh and blood. We live in acordance with that when our lives proclaim God's loving reign. Not when we "live the right way".

The very fact that our righteousness is equated with filthy rags, is enough to drive this home. I agree.

 

[FireDragon76]

The very fact that our righteousness is equated with filthy rags, is enough to drive this home. I agree.

It's ironic because yesterday at church was the reading from Isaiah, the lamentation prayer to God, where the "filthy rags" came up. Advent, the period before Christmas, is a penitential season for us.

I don't think we can choose to do good in the world, but we do good when it is "spontaneous" or arises naturally, when our left hand does not know what our right hand is doing. Asceticism definitely has a place in the Christian life to prepare us for this, to train us, we do not deny this, but it is not an end in itself, and it is not the measure of a Christian.

 

[Grip Docility]

It's ironic because yesterday at church was the reading from Isaiah, the lamentation prayer to God, where the "filthy rags" came up. Advent, the period before Christmas, is a penitential season for us.

I don't think we can choose to do good in the world, but we do good when it is "spontaneous" or arises naturally, when our left hand does not know what our right hand is doing. Asceticism definitely has a place in the Christian life to prepare us for this, to train us, we do not deny this, but it is not an end in itself, and it is not the measure of a Christian.

I do believe we can choose one or the other, but I believe deprivation pulls us towards evil.

Your left hand not knowing correlation makes sense.

 

[Grip Docility]

Like so many mainline Protestant denominations, Presbyterians are also divided especially in modern times into conservative and liberal categories and not that I agree, but a person may embrace conservativism in politics, while embracing liberalism on religion. I do not think our President has lived as a conservative for a substantial amount of time, and I have no clue how long he has claimed to be a Presbyterian. In short, it is disgusting and distasteful to use our president and his claims as a springboard to hurl insult at Calvinists, as though he were the model Calvinist the model Presbyterian. There is little question he is a good businessman, which had far more to do with his election into office, than his religious claims. Finally we should not be so ignorant as to blame the president for everything that goes wrong in the country.

I will say this; Calvinism begets more Calvinism and defends the right to judge more ardently than any other sect.

Calvinism immediately splits humanity and no matter how ardently it sweeps Hebrews 2:9 and 1 John 2:2 under the rug... or attempts to burry them under 3000 pages of puritanical writing, they remain a reminder that there’s a reason something isn’t okay there.

 

[Ken Rank]

I do believe the accuser of the brethren was a moral judge... and Jesus called moral judges of the time He was first physically with us... serpents.

No, Yeshua called SOME rulers of the day serpents and hypocrites. There were two schools of Pharisees in that day, one taught letter if the law and the other taught spirit of the law. The Pharisees who taught spirit of the law were in agreement with Yeshua on everything but divorce, that is the one instance where he sided with Beit Shammai, the School of Shammai, which taught letter of the law. Just sharing this to say be careful not to attribute an evil intent/motive as a blanket statement. Some fit the bill, some didn't.

 

[Ken Rank]

I don't think we are capable of choosing true righteousness. Good and evil are above our pay-grade. God gave the people holy to him alone, a holy law and... the Son of God was executed anyways. Exposing a deep sickness in humanity that goes all the way back.

It seems to me there is a new covenant based on grace, inagurated in Jesus own flesh and blood. We live in acordance with that when our lives proclaim God's loving reign. Not when we "live the right way".

The entire law was based on loving God and loving neighbor so love, grace... all of that, has ALWAYS been what God's promises were/are built on. Anything less means He changed. And when we choose God's ways, we are choosing righteousness. I can prove that in the definition of the words if you're interested. But anytime we choose God's path over the world's path we are choosing righteousness. That said, I do admit, we are not capable of doing it 24/7/365 which is why God is going to write His law in full on our hearts.

 

[Grip Docility]

No, Yeshua called SOME rulers of the day serpents and hypocrites. There were two schools of Pharisees in that day, one taught letter if the law and the other taught spirit of the law. The Pharisees who taught spirit of the law were in agreement with Yeshua on everything but divorce, that is the one instance where he sided with Beit Shammai, the School of Shammai, which taught letter of the law. Just sharing this to say be careful not to attribute an evil intent/motive as a blanket statement. Some fit the bill, some didn't.

Interesting ... was Nicodemus a spirit of the law type?

 

[Ken Rank]

Interesting ... was Nicodemus a spirit of the law type?

It doesn't say but I have always assumed so. I do know for a fact that Paul was. His teacher was Gamaliel (mentioned twice in Acts) who was the grandson of Hillel, for whom that school (Beit Hillel) was named. Beit Hillel was known to teach spirit of the Law and Beit Shammai the letter of the Law. The difference? The spirit of the law considers the intent, the depth, the heart behind the letters. For example... Yeshua said that to even look and lust in the heart at a woman is to have already committed adultery... the commandment was broken in essence, in the intent behind the letter. He did the same when he said that to hate your brother is to murder him (paraphrased). Once hate entered the heart, you might as well taken a pistol and fired. Neither example negates the physical... it is still a sin to kill or sleep with a woman outside of marriage... but to break the command one doesn't even have to get as far as the physical.

His true point Grip... wasn't to show us that it is actually harder to live by the Spirit (it is) but that we need God to circumcise our minds and hearts, fully write His instructions so that we can't ever sin. Until that day brother... we do the best we can.

Incidentally... the Acts 15 letter is really the reversing of a decision that happened 50 years earlier when Shammai's position was accepted as halacha (Jewish law) over Hillel's in a debate they had on what was expected of a proselyte.

 

[Grip Docility]

It doesn't say but I have always assumed so. I do know for a fact that Paul was. His teacher was Gamaliel (mentioned twice in Acts) who was the grandson of Hillel, for whom that school (Beit Hillel) was named. Beit Hillel was known to teach spirit of the Law and Beit Shammai the letter of the Law. The difference? The spirit of the law considers the intent, the depth, the heart behind the letters. For example... Yeshua said that to even look and lust in the heart at a woman is to have already committed adultery... the commandment was broken in essence, in the intent behind the letter. He did the same when he said that to hate your brother is to murder him (paraphrased). Once hate entered the heart, you might as well taken a pistol and fired. Neither example negates the physical... it is still a sin to kill or sleep with a woman outside of marriage... but to break the command one doesn't even have to get as far as the physical.

His true point Grip... wasn't to show us that it is actually harder to live by the Spirit (it is) but that we need God to circumcise our minds and hearts, fully write His instructions so that we can't ever sin. Until that day brother... we do the best we can.

Incidentally... the Acts 15 letter is really the reversing of a decision that happened 50 years earlier when Shammai's position was accepted as halacha (Jewish law) over Hillel's in a debate they had on what was expected of a proselyte.

Thank you. I have learned something.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

I will say this; Calvinism begets more Calvinism and defends the right to judge more ardently than any other sect.

Calvinism immediately splits humanity and no matter how ardently it sweeps Hebrews 2:9 and 1 John 2:2 under the rug... or attempts to burry them under 3000 pages of puritanical writing, they remain a reminder that there’s a reason something isn’t okay there.

How similar to atheists your comment is, allow me to demonstrate by changing one word..."Christianity begets more Christianity and defends the right to judge...Christianity immediately splits humanity." Do you not see how that in itself is hate speech? I suppose you're entitled to it. ALL Christians should defend not just some truth, but the whole truth, and if that means being hated, well it's nothing new, goes back almost as long as man has been on the earth.

 

[Grip Docility]

How similar to atheists your comment is, allow me to demonstrate by changing one word..."Christianity begets more Christianity and defends the right to judge...Christianity immediately splits humanity." Do you not see how that in itself is hate speech? I suppose you're entitled to it. ALL Christians should defend not just some truth, but the whole truth, and if that means being hated, well it's nothing new, goes back almost as long as man has been on the earth.

How similar to Atheists your comment is.

You deny biblical inerrancy by making 1 John 2:2 and Hebrews 2:9 mere suggestions that have zero biblical authority.

You can flip the tables, but it is I and many others that count all Humanity our brethren and count all humanity including self... reprobate and in need of Christ... equal need.

It is you that divide humanity through theological Sophistry.

I do not hate you. I love you and all people. I, however, unapologetically... do not approve of any rhetoric that marginalizes scripture and claims supreme authority over theology, while simultaneously claiming to be sola scripture.

Spoiler

You chose to connect my words to a person who says there is no God in their heart and made this a personal attack. There are people who believe they’re atheists, but simply don’t believe in the God of Calvinism. I simply reused your phrase because it was out of place and was ad hominem.

 

[Grip Docility]

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