American Conservative Republican Jesus

Judge not lest ye be judged means;

  • Just that. We all sin and to judge by the law is to be condemned by the law

    Votes: 14 73.7%
  • Christians can judge everyone, but everyone can’t judge Christians

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Whatever it needs to mean. It’s just a guideline

    Votes: 1 5.3%
  • Jesus meant we should judge others!

    Votes: 4 21.1%

  • Total voters
    19

Grip Docility

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About that Luke text about getting a sword. Jesus clearly states that the instruction to buy a sword fulfills a prophecy that Jesus would be seen as numbered with transgressors. If the instruction to get the sword was for self defence, how does this make Jesus "numbered among transgressors"?

It doesn't. Therefore, this cannot be what Jesus is getting at.

If, on the other hand, the instruction is given so that Jesus would be seen as a member of an armed band of rebels, the prophecy is clearly fulfilled.

The only question here is whether you ignore the prophecy and force Jesus to be promoting armed self-defence. Or you go with what the text actually says.

I initially missed the depth of your post! This is food for thought!
 
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RadiantGrace

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Judge not lest ye be judged... said “American Conservative Republican Jesus” Never!
Why is biblical Jesus thrown to the side and why does judge not get trampled so frequently?

The US has had a strong Calvinist influence. In this view, God makes people He decides in his "glory" to enter the world in poverty and to suffer in hell forever, or to enjoy financial success, be saved and enjoy whatever thing Calvinists imagine is Heaven, without any choice of their own.

Calvinist God isn't weird enough, he likes to let everyone on Earth know who he favors by having them prosper, and show those he destined for hell by suffering and poverty. So, if you are saved, you are financially well off. Poor people, they aren't saved, especially the brown ones, probably a further rubbing it in on God's part. That explains why all those Baptists in the south whipped their slaves. It was a favor, to prepare them for the hell Calvinist God prepared for them.

It just so happens that God favors rich white people. So, you combine this religious view and politics and you have the Republican party. Poor people suffer because God hates them, so to please God and do the best thing economically, you find ways of punishing them for being poor. You help make the rich richer, and you do so in the name of Calvinist God.

Then you make sure everyone knows how unbalanced you are by opposing serious gun control measures and denying global warming.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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The only question you need to ask to trap a person who presents this out of it's context is "Am I wrong for judging?"

No matter the answer, they will restore the correct context of the command themselves, saving you the time. Is it wrong to judge because God commanded us not to? Should we not do it because we will condemn ourselves? Are you allowed to disclose to me that God commanded me not to judge and the consequences if I continue to do so? If you even address the issue of judging and those who engage in it, you show the ignorant or pretended understanding of the context to be self-defeating, as you will be engaging in the same manner of moral criticism as one who criticizes any other sin on the basis of God's commands and warnings.

The nail has already been put in the coffin on this issue regardless. The context is made clear by Christ Himself and other Scriptures which tell us to judge right judgments, to discipline, to warn, etc. We are told to test the spirits, to identify pigs and dogs, to examine people by their fruit, all of which has been mentioned and referenced countless times. This issue should be resolved, but overly soft Christians who want to isolate the wrath of God from the grace of God refuse to allow Scripture to say what it explicitly says in its entirety and in its context.
 
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RadiantGrace

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The nail has already been put in the coffin on this issue regardless. The context is made clear by Christ Himself and other Scriptures which tell us to judge right judgments, to discipline, to warn, etc. We are told to test the spirits, to identify pigs and dogs, to examine people by their fruit, all of which has been mentioned and referenced countless times. This issue should be resolved, but overly soft Christians who want to isolate the wrath of God from the grace of God refuse to allow Scripture to say what it explicitly says in its entirety and in its context.

People are pigs and dogs to you? You identify people by their 'fruit'?

Scripture says a lot of things, mostly dealing with compassion, understanding, redemption, and things very much opposed to the twisted evils people pervert the bible into saying to justify seeing people are pigs and dogs to be measured by their fruit.

Thank you for the appropriate juxtaposition to my post.
 
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Thir7ySev3n

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People are pigs and dogs to you? You identify people by their 'fruit'?

Scripture says a lot of things, mostly dealing with compassion, understanding, redemption, and things very much opposed to the twisted evils people pervert the bible into saying to justify seeing people are pigs and dogs to be measured by their fruit.

Thank you for the appropriate juxtaposition to my post.

Curious you think I was the one making the designations when I was clearly (to anyone who has read their Bible) alluding to Scripture. More specifically, to what Jesus said:

"Do not give dogs what is holy, and do not throw your pearls before pigs, lest they trample them underfoot and turn to attack you." (Matthew 7:6)

"For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, or each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush. (Luke 6:43-44)
 
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Norbert L

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Judge not lest ye be judged... said “American Conservative Republican Jesus” Never!

Why is biblical Jesus thrown to the side and why does judge not get trampled so frequently?
The fourth choice is the closest correct answer. Verse one shouldn't be taken out of the context spoken of in the 2nd verse, "with the measure you use it will be measured to you.". Putting it in other terms it's about when you point your finger at someone, you'd better beware of the three fingers pointing back towards yourself James 2:10. That funnels right into verse 3, the kind of approach a person needs to take in order to resolve the situation John 7:24.

However when this gets taken into the political realm, it becomes a much bigger animal when dealing with large groups rather than a smaller individual basis. Large groups are about consensus and compromise, judge not lest ye be judged starts wading into muddy waters.

What I would be concerned about is having the freedom to voice ideas about this world being shut down by implying that it's unchristian to do so 1 Corinthians 6:2.
 
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Ken Rank

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Judge not lest ye be judged... said “American Conservative Republican Jesus” Never!

Why is biblical Jesus thrown to the side and why does judge not get trampled so frequently?
The idea that we cannot judge is simply a non-biblical and overly emotional response to a verse that is taken out of context. The bible says that "after the first or second admonition (firm rebuke), reject." So I ask, how is it possible to know that a person needs to be rebuked, and that we go through with it, AND that we reject them when they don't respond... if we can't judge the need for the rebuke or judge the need to reject when they don't repent? Here is another example... do we allow our children to play with other children who cuss or are engaged in immoral behavior? Or do we righteously judge the need to protect our children from unrighteousness and perhaps find others to fellowship with? Do we allow atheists to have positions of authority in our churches? Or do we judge the need to protect the flock and not allow one to teach who could cause the flock to be led astray?

We are not to judge "unto condemnation," which means, we can't determine their eternal destiny; that is up to God alone. But we are to judge whether or not one is walking with a desire to please God, or in pure hypocrisy causing others (or themselves) to stumble.
 
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Brian Mcnamee

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The stereotype of American conservative Christians would have to be that of the Westboro Baptist church. This group is a very small church most all related to the pastor who fly around the country and protest funerals and hold signs that say things like God hates f...s and all. This is really a slanderous job of what conservative Christians represent as this small group gets incredible international coverage as their obvious hypocritical message is used to paint all fundamentalist Christians with the same brush as haters.
A fundamentalist would be one who believes what the Bible says. In my church we have about 1500 members and have received no news coverage which makes us 30 times larger than Westboro. Here we teach what the Bible teaches that the gospel is repentance for the remission of sins. John the Baptist taught this and so did Jesus. Faith is believing in the gospel and repenting of your sins. Being born again is not just setting down your sins but it is putting on Christ instead. This is adding things to your life that as scripture says the church should be equipping the saints for the work of the ministry.

I can share Romans 1 as truth and the gospel to a gay person. The scriptures are clear that this behavior is being given over to a debased mind and clearly states the wrath of God is upon all those who practice and approve of these things. I would tell the hetero luster that this is adultery in Gods eyes too. And make no distinction as to some sin being worse than others. The message is God loves you and the repentance from evil will bring you acceptance to God.
The churches with rainbow flags and all are an abomination as they have taken Luciferian ideas such as do what thy will is the whole of the law and made no distinction as to what scriptures have taught that is right and wrong. If I recognize a person caught up in sin I know that they need to receive the love of God through faith and repentance. I cannot tell them their is acceptance apart from repentance. I have not judged them, that is condemn them in my eyes because I too was lost and was found and this is the big difference between Fundamentalist who follow the Bible and those who are haters.
The great example is the woman caught in adultery thrown naked before Jesus and condemned to stoning threw the law. Jesus said, "He who is without sin may cast the 1st stone at her." This is it right here we cannot throw stones at anyone as we are all guilty but we can share the next line of Jesus. which is "I do not condemn you. go and sin no more.". This is the message I would share with all those who are living in sin. Go and sin no more.
Mathew 9
12 When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
 
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redleghunter

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To answer the question, the problem, based on my collective experiences of mingling with people, is so many ungodly people with very little knowledge of Scripture, can be found quoting that passage to shut Christians up and at the same time in a twisted fashion as an excuse to (in their defiled minds) justify or excuse their sinful words, deeds, behavior, etc. To twist things even further, are those calling themselves Christians whom would have the least compassion, mercy, and love for their bruised, downtrodden, suffering, lonely, struggling with sin brothers and sisters in Christ. In other words, many would rather walk a mile with hopes of a convert rather than walk next door to comfort a suffering brother or sister in Christ. These type of things can produce a hardening effect on even the most faithful.

My experience has been the misguided notion of Jesus embracing what post-modern society defines (several definitions mind you) as 'love.'

We are taught to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:14-15).
 
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W2L

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Christians are supposed to judge sin. I am the last person who has the right to say this because I still have a problem with sin. But I do know that Christians are supposed to judge sin as long as they take the log out of their own eye. But Christians are not supposed to judge sin to condemn people, but to restore them to Jesus Christ.

I actually don't know if I understood the op right.

But actually from what I understood from Paul we are not supposed to judge people outside the church by Christian standards. We are actually supposed to judge the things inside the church. It is actually Christians that we are supposed to judge whether they are truly Christians or not. That's what I understood what Paul meant when he said people outside the church he leaves them up to God, it is the matters inside the church that we are supposed to judge.

But the only focus I am trying to focus on is myself. I do not have the right to judge anyone because I still have a problem with sin. But I'm just saying those whose hearts are blameless. My heart is not blameless. So I'm not making an excuse of becoming judgmental. I'm just saying what I understood what Paul was saying.
Good post.
 
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FireDragon76

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Because judging is so much fun and it has numerous benefits. But that hardly makes it right.

My experience has been the misguided notion of Jesus embracing what post-modern society defines (several definitions mind you) as 'love.'

We are taught to speak the truth in love (Ephesians 4:14-15).

It's not all that loving to narrowly define love.
 
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redleghunter

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Christians are supposed to judge sin. I am the last person who has the right to say this because I still have a problem with sin. But I do know that Christians are supposed to judge sin as long as they take the log out of their own eye. But Christians are not supposed to judge sin to condemn people, but to restore them to Jesus Christ.

I actually don't know if I understood the op right.

But actually from what I understood from Paul we are not supposed to judge people outside the church by Christian standards. We are actually supposed to judge the things inside the church. It is actually Christians that we are supposed to judge whether they are truly Christians or not. That's what I understood what Paul meant when he said people outside the church he leaves them up to God, it is the matters inside the church that we are supposed to judge.

But the only focus I am trying to focus on is myself. I do not have the right to judge anyone because I still have a problem with sin. But I'm just saying those whose hearts are blameless. My heart is not blameless. So I'm not making an excuse of becoming judgmental. I'm just saying what I understood what Paul was saying.
Yes a very insightful post.

And with good cause as we are to correct and reprove our own brethren in Christ to bring them to restoration:

in Matthew 18:15-20
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, it shows up in passages like Romans 16:17-18
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, 1 Corinthians 5:1-13
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, 2 Corinthians 2:5-11
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, Galatians 6:1-3
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, 2 Thessalonians 3:6
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, 14-15
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, and Titus 3:9-11
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.
 
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FireDragon76

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People take the woman at the well example out of context all the time. To fully explain why, we'ld have to delve into ancient near-eastern culture. Needless to say, Jesus is being compassionate to her. She comes to the well alone in the hottest part of the day because she is the butt of jokes. Jesus is not necessarily some psychic reader here. He sees her coming alone to a well in the middle of a hot day, it must be because she has some secret that shames her. Jesus accepts her despite her shame and tells her the good news, and she goes away happy. It has nothing to do with telling sinners the law.
 
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RaymondG

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Everyone is free to judge if they so choose. The command not to judge is just like all the other commandments in the bible: It is to teach us how to live and what to do and not do to be blessed.

When you judge, you are judged. period. The same measure you give will be measured back to you, period.....no ifs. .e.g. not only if you do the same thing as the person you are judging does....it is measured to you immediately at the time you make the judgment.

So by all means if you choose to judge, it would be wise to make it good and righteous judgments.....e.g. judge that someone is doing something good.... Judge that someone has what they have because God blessed them with it because the are living right in the eyes of God......Judge that God has delivered someone from their situation because they asked Him to, and that God gives to all those who ask.

But if you choose to point out and judge negatively.....just be prepared to experience the same.

I see these commands as help for the judgers.....not the judged. This is not to stop people from feeling bad because their sins are pointed out by others..... It is to help the one judging understand what is coming to them and why. Everyone is free to choose how they want to live.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live"
 
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FireDragon76

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I am convinced Jesus was the least judgmental person to ever walk the earth. christians that assume judgmentalism is compatible with christianity are just wrong. they are reading the Bible in the wrong way, seeing in it a Jesus who reflects their own prejudices. Which is why I believe so much in the Law and Gospel distinction. We always need to look for the good news in the text. We cannot simply find bad news for sinners. If all we find is bad news for other people, then there is something wrong with how we are reading the text.
 
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FireDragon76

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The fact is that Jesus WAS quite judgmental in some cases, even while he seems to be wonderfully non-judgmental in others.

Only towards the sort of people that were going around hurting the marginalized folks in his society with their religion.
 
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As Hedrick has pointed out before, Jesus was not interested in moralism in the unusual sense. That is usually what we commonly mean by saying someone is judgmental, that they apply their own moral sensibilities to other people indiscriminately.
 
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