Do we have an obligation to criminalize murder?

[Jackson Cooper]

There are certain well known politicians (I will not name them for they are found in multiple parties) that claim to be Christians while also believing that it is a sin to force someone to not murder someone else. This applies to infants, children, and adults.
Do Christians have an obligation to do so?

Some are pacifists, thinking it's wrong to use force on anyone, even a Jeffrey Dahmer or the Sutherlands church shooter.
Others believe that criminalizing murder is interfering with the murderer's free will to commit sin. If they want to commit sin, that is their choice.

 

[FireDragon76]

I don't think they think it is right per se, I think they think it's unwise in a pluralistic society where not everyone has the same beliefs.

Government in a democracy is always going to involve compromise.

 

[eleos1954]

Others believe that criminalizing murder is interfering with the murderer's free will to commit sin. If they want to commit sin, that is their choice.

This is absurd thought. Yes, all have free choice, but if that choice is against the will of God .... then there are consequences.

Romans 13

1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

However,

Romans 13

8Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Many people do not know how to love. Those who can not love in this manner are subject to "civil law". Those who can love in this manner will be in harmony with civil law ---- for the most part.

If the two conflict, serve God

Galatians 1

10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Acts 5

29 But Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than any human authority.

God Bless.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

I don't think they think it is right per se, I think they think it's unwise in a pluralistic society where not everyone has the same beliefs.

Government in a democracy is always going to involve compromise.

I think it is foolish of the United States to try to cater to Moslems, Hindus, Christians, and atheists. It's impossible. The US is simply too large for that. I'd be fine with breaking it up.

 

[FireDragon76]

We tried a breakup before. It ended in one of the worst wars prior to WWI.

The Lutheran in me doesn't celebrate civil disorder.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

This is absurd thought. Yes, all have free choice, but if that choice is against the will of God .... then there are consequences.

Romans 13

1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

However,

Romans 13

8Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Many people do not know how to love. Those who can not love in this manner are subject to "civil law". Those who can love in this manner will be in harmony with civil law ---- for the most part.

If the two conflict, serve God

Galatians 1

10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Acts 5

29 But Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than any human authority.

God Bless.

Paul is always the most hated in the New Testament. Liberals don't like what he said about female church leaders, adulterers, fornicators, and sodomites. I politicians I was referring to probably believe that Paul's writings are not Divine word. Did Peter accept them as Divine word?

 

[Jackson Cooper]

This is absurd thought. Yes, all have free choice, but if that choice is against the will of God .... then there are consequences.

Romans 13

1Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

However,

Romans 13

8Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Many people do not know how to love. Those who can not love in this manner are subject to "civil law". Those who can love in this manner will be in harmony with civil law ---- for the most part.

If the two conflict, serve God

Galatians 1

10For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Acts 5

29 But Peter and the apostles replied, “We must obey God rather than any human authority.

God Bless.

Ok, so Paul says it's fine for there to be authority since it ultimately comes from God. God wants us to criminalize murder?

 

[FireDragon76]

Paul probably didn't write half of what is attributed to him. It is believed a disciple of Paul wrote many of those epistles.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

We tried a breakup before. It ended in one of the worst wars prior to WWI.

The Lutheran in me doesn't celebrate civil disorder.

Oh no, I am totally opposed to rebellion. Rebellions by Mao, Lenin, Washington, Earl of Essex were horrible. I meant a peaceful breakup. That has happened before.

 

[FireDragon76]

Oh no, I am totally opposed to rebellion. Rebellions by Mao, Lenin, Washington, Earl of Essex were horrible. I meant a peaceful breakup. That has happened before.

I think most people in the US are still believing in America as a unified country. There is a vocal minority that is upset and they have access to disproportionate political power, but they are not the majority.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

I think most people in the US are still believing in America as a unified country. There is a vocal minority that is upset and they have access to disproportionate political power, but they are not the majority.

I believe it is due to the extreme wealth of the US. When the majority vote for a secession, it is usually due to economic dissatisfaction, not moral dissatisfaction.

 

[jgarden]

Do we have an obligation to criminalize murder?

Early Christians tended to be pacifists - they discouraged fellow members from holding government positions or military service, based on the premise that one
cannot serve 2 masters!

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)

Put your sword back in its place… for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.
— Hippolytus of Rome

One soul cannot be due to two masters—God and Cæsar ..... how
will a Christian man war, nay, how will he serve even in peace, without a sword, which the Lord has taken away? For albeit soldiers had come unto John, and had received the formula of their rule; albeit, likewise, a centurion had believed; still the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbelted every soldier. No dress is lawful among us, if assigned to any unlawful action.
— Tertullian
..... have learned from His teaching and His laws that evil ought not to be requited with evil, that it is better to suffer wrong than to inflict it, that we should rather shed our own blood than stain our hands and our conscience with that of another
— Arnobius

Consider the roads blocked up by robbers, the seas beset with pirates, wars scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood; and murder, which in the case of an individual is admitted to be a crime, is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale.
— Cyprian of Carthage

Christian pacifism - Wikipedia

 

[Brotherly Spirit]

People have a right to their lives as it's not others who possess it. I believe the old phrase; "Your rights end where mine begin". All societies have an obligation to ensure life is valued, else the attempted pacifism allows an environment for violence. I think if life is valued, it should be defended; it's not the same as offending the lives of others (self-defense vs. murder etc). Especially if it's other people's lives endangered, even if you would rather die than defend your life; the least you could do is accept society's need for other's lives to do something about it.

 

[Jackson Cooper]

John the Bap

Do we have an obligation to criminalize murder?

Early Christians tended to be pacifists - they discouraged fellow members from holding government positions or military service, based on the premise that one
cannot serve 2 masters!

Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. (Matt. 5:43-48, Luke 6:27-28)

Put your sword back in its place… for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matt. 26:52)

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. (Matt. 5:9)

A soldier of the civil authority must be taught not to kill men and to refuse to do so if he is commanded, and to refuse to take an oath. If he is unwilling to comply, he must be rejected for baptism. A military commander or civic magistrate must resign or be rejected. If a believer seeks to become a soldier, he must be rejected, for he has despised God.
— Hippolytus of Rome

One soul cannot be due to two masters—God and Cæsar ..... how
will a Christian man war, nay, how will he serve even in peace, without a sword, which the Lord has taken away? For albeit soldiers had come unto John, and had received the formula of their rule; albeit, likewise, a centurion had believed; still the Lord afterward, in disarming Peter, unbelted every soldier. No dress is lawful among us, if assigned to any unlawful action.
— Tertullian
..... have learned from His teaching and His laws that evil ought not to be requited with evil, that it is better to suffer wrong than to inflict it, that we should rather shed our own blood than stain our hands and our conscience with that of another
— Arnobius

Consider the roads blocked up by robbers, the seas beset with pirates, wars scattered all over the earth with the bloody horror of camps. The whole world is wet with mutual blood; and murder, which in the case of an individual is admitted to be a crime, is called a virtue when it is committed wholesale.
— Cyprian of Carthage

Christian pacifism - Wikipedia

John the Baptist was highly praised by Jesus. He told centurions that he had just baptized to continue being centurions.
I could understand discouraging someone from joining a pagan and anti-Christian military as you would likely either have to disobey God, or be executed for treason. I wouldn't recommend a Christian join North Korea's or Iran's military. Other militaries are fine since those countries are either in peace or not ordering their soldiers to commit murder.