Monty python banned, Mein Kampf approved!

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AlexDTX

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Hitler repeatedly professed himself to be Christian, does that make Nazism a Christian creation?
In Mein Kampf he makes no such claims. He believed in some kind of God, for sure, but blends many religious thoughts in his writings. The Germans never called their party Nazism, by the way. That was an epitaph created by a Jewish writer. The Nationalists Socialist Workers Party.

There is a difference between being Christian and being Jewish. Jewish is a family first, not a religion. Jews are supposed to be descendants of Judah and other Israeli tribes that remained with Judea. Now Jewish is a term for all Israelis. Judaism is a culture a well. A Jew can be an atheist and still be regarded as a Jew or an Hindu and still be regarded as a Jew. Cat Stevens is a Jewish musician who converted to Islam and he is still considered a Jew by the Jewish people. The only thing a Jew can not be and still be considered a Jew is a Christian. The Talmud has several directives on despising Christians. The Talmud claims that Jesus died and is in Hell boiling in excrement.

Being a Christian is not a matter of birth. Many think they are Christians because they grow up in "Christian" homes, but never had the new birth. Perhaps Hitler considered himself a Christian for this reason. I have also read in other reports that Hitler was a Jew himself who turned his back on the international Jewish bankers.

I don't know, but it is thoughtless, in my opinion, to merely accept what we are told.
 
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mindlight

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Mindlight... widespread secularism among Jews is easier to understand when you consider the fallout of messianic pretenders like Sabbatai Zevi. Then you can understand why an intellectually inclined Jew might want to avoid anything that looks like that kind of religious fanaticism, and might be attracted to more rational ways of viewing the world.

That would be a justification for rejecting the cities gods much as Socrates once did. When they are blatantly self serving and false.

Indeed, Nazi Germany was the most scientifically advanced nation at the time. The US only got lucky because alot of talent left Europe when Hitler came to power, they came to the US and helped build the atom bomb.

Werner von Braun and the Apollo Space programme, development of ICBMs etc. Yep America used its captured German scientists.

Most Americans can't understand the humiliation that Germany faced after WWI at the hands of the French, and how the economic sanctions and war reparations against Germany compounded the worldwide depression's acute impacts on the German people. Nazism is not really just a German tragedy because it could happen in any country if there is enough fear and insecurity. Indeed, this is why we should be cautious of listening to any leader who promotes blood and soil ideology.

Definitely lessons to be learned from the history here.
 
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mindlight

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I just finished reading a book by Israel Shahak, entitled, "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: the Weight of 3,000 years of History." Shahak was a Polish Ashkenazi Jew who escaped the concentration camps and made Aliyah to Israel. He served in the Israeli Defense Force and obtained his PHD in microbiology at the Hebrew University in Tel Aviv. He later came to the USA and lived and worked, then returned to Israel where he died in 2,001. He was an atheist and a humanist and a frequent critic of Israeli politics. As such he held no reverence for Judaism. As all critics of Israel, regardless of his Jewish pedigree, he has been denounced as a crackpot.

In the book he breaks Jewish history into 4 parts: biblical up to Babylonian exile; return to expulsion by Rome; a classical period of rabbinic control (900 AD to 1800 AD) and the modern period of today. It is the third period that his book is about. Jewish society around the world maintained its cohesiveness as a culture by totalitarian means. Jewish leaders saddled up to civil leaders to do their bidding in exchange for the use of civil power to control the Jewish people. Shahak points out that Jesus could not be crucified by the Jews which is why they persuaded Pilot to execute him. The rabbinical authorities taxed the Jewish people and gave a large percentage of that tax to the civil leaders, so it was profitable for the civil leaders to back the rabbinical leaders. This worked during the Classical period because the world was filled with kingdoms and empires which already had authoritarian governments. When the republics emerged in the 1800's rabbi's lost their power and Jews became free to think outside the Talmudic constraints.

His criticism of the Zionists (who are not necessarily religious, although the Orthodox and Hassadim want the totalitarian control again) is that they run Israel with the same totalitarian desire. He makes a distinction between Jews that are granted citizenship, hence have a type of democratic life, and the gentiles who are not allowed to vote, buy property or have any governmental office. The Zionists, according to Shahak, want a hegemony over all the Middle East, and, along with religious Jews, believe it is their divine call to conquer the Middle East and obtain all of the promised land from the Egyptian River to the Euphrates River. Shahak concludes that totalitarianism has a long streak in Jewish history and remains today.

Shahak critique of Zionism seems rather shallow to me and is handicapped by his secularism. It is easy to dismiss as totalitarian people whose agendas you oppose and whose values you do not share but are obliged to respect.

The Jewish strategy of working with the established authorities wherever they ended up also seems quite a wise one in the circumstances of pogroms and holocausts. Who else afterall could protect them in the countries they inhabited. Ironically however they often prospered a little too well in such arrangements and this made them vulnerable to the kinds of resentment and attacks they were so keen to avoid.

Basically there is a God, he has been looking out for the Hebrew people for more than 3500 years now and he has preserved them through all sorts of terrible tragedies including the Nazi Holocaust. Indeed this last terrible tragedy moved the world to compassion when it came to the recreation of the Jewish state of Israel. I see the return as a fulfilment of prophecy and await in expectation for a return of the Jews to God through their Messiah and ours. The essential idea of Zionism is that the land and the people have a bond which history and even millennia of separation cannot break. Since this bond is ultimately based on promises recorded in scripture I find the logic of that hard to resist. At the same time aspects of Zionism have been incredibly counter productive to their cause e.g. the bombing of the King David Hotel when the British were there, the sinking of an American ship monitoring atrocities during one of the Arab Israeli wars etc. Regarding the biggest issue of the day - the status of the Palestinians I must admit I side with Israel. The Palestinians are mainly people that should really be absorbed by the surrounding Arab nations and have no real home in Israel. That does not mean they should be treated unjustly and definitely not in the manner the Nazis did but the essential truth that the land belongs to the Hebrew peoples is incontrovertible here.
 
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AlexDTX

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As a German, I appreciate your comments. Thank you for your feedback.
Shahak critique of Zionism seems rather shallow to me and is handicapped by his secularism. It is easy to dismiss as totalitarian people whose agendas you oppose and whose values you do not share but are obliged to respect.

I don't think being secular or religious is the issue here. He is a Jew who came out the concentration camps. If anything, one would think he would be pro-Zionism, especially since he lived there. To think his view is rather shallow is a dismissive comment of a man who spoke Hebrew, as well as many other languages, and quotes the Talmud from the Hebrew and not the English. Anyone who criticizes Jews are automatically called anti-semitic which is a cheap evasion of the criticism. I take what a Jew has to say about other Jews more seriously just as I take what a German has to say about other Germans.

The Jewish strategy of working with the established authorities wherever they ended up also seems quite a wise one in the circumstances of pogroms and holocausts. Who else afterall could protect them in the countries they inhabited.

Shahak states that Germany is the only nation in history where persecution of the Jews was state sponsored (of course Spain expelled the Jews as a state, but did not sponsor the persecutions). All the other persecutions were the result of the populace rising up in frustration at the thieving an conniving they experienced by the Jewish leaders, not the Jewish peasants.

I do appreciate your knowledge and thank you for sharing it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Goonie

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Yeah, that is nuts. But then again, if a person can simply buy Mein Kampf from a bookstore or order a copy online, then why can't it be available to inmates at one's favorite local prison?
True except Monty python, the color purple etc are banned. Banning harmless works whilst allowing Mein Kampf is absurd.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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True except Monty python, the color purple etc are banned. Banning harmless works whilst allowing Mein Kampf is absurd.

...I had already edited my previous comment for clarification before you posted. Anyway, I agree. We both know the kinds of mind-sets that are often present within the walls of prisons, one of which is made up of racially charged Skin-Head allegiances, and it seems that making the availability of Mein Kampf in such a degraded social setting would be akin to pouring gasoline on a fire.
 
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Goonie

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...I had already edited my previous comment for clarification before you posted. Anyway, I agree. We both know the kinds of mind-sets that are often present within the walls of prisons, one of which is made up of racially charged Skin-Head allegiances, and it seems that making the availability of Mein Kampf in such a degraded social setting would be akin to pouring gasoline on a fire.
I wonder whether Das Kapital is also available to prisoners?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I wonder whether Das Kapital is also available to prisoners?
I imagine so. I suppose it can always be introduced into prisons under the otherwise innocuous guise of 'economic philosophy.' ;)
 
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essentialsaltes

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Kudos to you. At least you tried to read it.
I feel that I have a pretty good idea of the things hitler tried to convey. I just disagree with them and view them as a window into the mind of a deranged man instead of the justification for his actions.
 
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The only thing a Jew can not be and still be considered a Jew is a Christian.

Vladimir Ulyanov (Lenin) was not Jewish. His only clearly documented Jewish family member was his maternal grandfather. Who was a physician who converted to Christianity. So according to your comment, he would not be considered Jewish. And even if his grandfather hadn't converted, Jews wouldn't have accepted Lenin's mother as Jewish. Because Jews believe Judaism is passed down through the maternal line.
 
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mindlight

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I feel that I have a pretty good idea of the things hitler tried to convey. I just disagree with them and view them as a window into the mind of a deranged man instead of the justification for his actions.

Yes the whole Nietzsche / Nazi / Hitler experience was like a journey through madness.
 
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Isn't that illegal to own in Germany?
No, and it never was.

It wasn't sold in german stores because the holder of the copyrights (the bavarian government) didn't publish it except in a few, annotated versions. Now that the copyright has gone out a year or so ago, there have been various reprints.

There have always been ways to read it online.
 
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