Obedience for Obedience' Sake

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Many think the counterpart to the parable of the two sons is found in Isaiah 5, the complete chapter. It's a parable about the care God provides for His people Isaiah 5:1-7. He asks them to judge for themselves whether He had done everything for them and why the vineyard had not brought forth good fruit, Isaiah 5:8-23 and the reasons why He threatens to break down its hedges to destroy it. Isaiah 5:24-30

Church attendance wasn't one of the reasons.

 

[Tree of Life]

This is related to when the call for obedience is actually an example of new testament phariseeism as was mentioned in the OP.

I still don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

This is what I mean by "obedience for obedience' sake".

I don't really see it that way, God incorporated it into the way I live and breathe, obedience doesn't come to mind.

 

[RDKirk]

If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.-- John 14

If someone says, "I love God," but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is a liar; for if we don't love people we can see, how can we love God, whom we can't see? -- 1 John 4

There are people who say, "I obey God, but I don't obey men."

The problem with that concept is that in the eyes of God, obedience=love.

If there is no person you can see that you submit to, that you obey, then you're likely fooling yourself if you think you are obedient to God. The fact is that obedience takes practice, and if one isn't practicing obedience with someone he can see, he's probably not able to obey someone he can't see.

That's why submission is a basic practice preached by scripture to Christians. We should all be in submission to someone. Scripture gives specific examples common to the 1st century culture, but we should all practice submission to someone.

It was easy for me in my military culture to stay in practice. It's harder for civilians.

 

[Tree of Life]

Many think the counterpart to the parable of the two sons is found in Isaiah 5, the complete chapter. It's a parable about the care God provides for His people Isaiah 5:1-7. He asks them to judge for themselves whether He had done everything for them and why the vineyard had not brought forth good fruit, Isaiah 5:8-23 and the reasons why He threatens to break down its hedges to destroy it. Isaiah 5:24-30

Church attendance isn't one of the reasons.

You're missing the point of the OP.

 

[Tree of Life]

I don't really see it that way, God incorporated it into the way I live and breathe, obedience doesn't come to mind.

You don't see "doing what God says, even though I don't want to" as "obedience to God"?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

You're missing the point of the OP.

One said he would obey but didn't, the other said he wouldn't but did. I don't think God has a lot of people that obey Him first off unless they're in need of it for some reason.

 

[Shetel]

There's a false teaching floating around out there in evangelicalism that obedience for obedience' sake is a bad thing. Or that duty for duty's sake is a bad thing. An example would be someone who's unwilling to go to church or read the Bible because they don't want to. And if they don't want to do it, it would be somehow bad or perhaps Pharisaical to do it just because it's the right thing to do. They suppose that until they really want to do it, it would be better to refrain from doing it entirely.

But this is a bunch of hogwarsh.

The ideal is obedience from the heart. That we love God and obey his commands because it is our heart's deepest desire. But even when we do not desire to obey God's commands we still ought to obey them. Indeed, that's what makes it obedience! When we do it even though we don't want to do it we are submitting ourselves to the Lordship of Christ.

Do any of Y'ALL subscribe to this false teaching?

 

[fide]

There's a false teaching floating around out there in evangelicalism that obedience for obedience' sake is a bad thing. Or that duty for duty's sake is a bad thing. An example would be someone who's unwilling to go to church or read the Bible because they don't want to. And if they don't want to do it, it would be somehow bad or perhaps Pharisaical to do it just because it's the right thing to do. They suppose that until they really want to do it, it would be better to refrain from doing it entirely.

But this is a bunch of hogwarsh.

The ideal is obedience from the heart. That we love God and obey his commands because it is our heart's deepest desire. But even when we do not desire to obey God's commands we still ought to obey them. Indeed, that's what makes it obedience! When we do it even though we don't want to do it we are submitting ourselves to the Lordship of Christ.

Do any of Y'ALL subscribe to this false teaching?

No, it is your understanding that is correct. We ought to do what is true and right, whether we want to or not. Truth deserves obedience because God, who is truth, deserves obedience.

Especially in the early days and years of our life in Christ, we ought to be in a period of guarding the grace that God has given us in Baptism and Confirmation - guarding that grace against its enemy which is sin. Later, as we grow (if we grow), so also does our heart grow in more mature love for God because He is God, and all-good, and deserving of all our love. THEN, it becomes more and more possible to do His will because we DO really want to. And that is better - and is expected of us - as we grow, more and more.

 

[W2L]

There's a false teaching floating around out there in evangelicalism that obedience for obedience' sake is a bad thing. Or that duty for duty's sake is a bad thing. An example would be someone who's unwilling to go to church or read the Bible because they don't want to. And if they don't want to do it, it would be somehow bad or perhaps Pharisaical to do it just because it's the right thing to do. They suppose that until they really want to do it, it would be better to refrain from doing it entirely.

But this is a bunch of hogwarsh.

The ideal is obedience from the heart. That we love God and obey his commands because it is our heart's deepest desire. But even when we do not desire to obey God's commands we still ought to obey them. Indeed, that's what makes it obedience! When we do it even though we don't want to do it we are submitting ourselves to the Lordship of Christ.

Do any of Y'ALL subscribe to this false teaching?

Its ok to to obey for the sake of obedience. Thats called faith.

 

[RDKirk]

You don't see "doing what God says, even though I don't want to" as "obedience to God"?

Obedience is not the same thing as agreement.

Once when I was active duty, I was engaged in conversation with our unit chaplain, an Orthodox rabbi. I started to mention how the dietary rules of the Mosaic Law made sense, but he immediately cut me short: "We don't obey God because it makes sense; we obey God because He is God."

The Jewish community has noted the statues of the Mosaic Law that "make sense" and those that don't "make sense." Those that don't "make sense" are called the chukkim.

I've heard people speak of "duty" as though it were something bad. That's the American concept of individualism talking.

This is what "duty" is: Duty is a football player seeing his position noted in the playbook. "Duty" means he has a part in the game, he's not sitting on the bench.

"Duty" for a soldier means that when his platoon goes into combat, he's got to be there or his buddy will have nobody at his shoulder.

"Duty" means you're in the plan. They need you, they want you, you're in the game.

 

[W2L]

Here Paul gives two reasons to obey. There is a third too, which is love.

Romans 13:5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake.

 

[aiki]

There's a false teaching floating around out there in evangelicalism that obedience for obedience' sake is a bad thing.

Well, it is. Not once do you see such obedience urged in the New Testament. The believer's obedience is always to be arising out of his/her love for God. In fact, the First and Great Commandment is to love God with all of one's being. (Matt. 22:36-38) Your very first act of obedience ought to be to this command. And when it is, obedience for the sake of obedience to God's other commands won't happen.

The ideal is obedience from the heart.

This is not merely an ideal; it is the very first and great command of God! Obedience from a heart of love for God is the starting point for all Christian living. This is why we read what we do in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3:

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

As the apostle Paul makes very clear here our obedience and sacrifice as Christian believers is spiritually useless whenever it is disconnected from a love for God (and others).

About the primacy of love in the Christian's obedience, however, Christ said it first:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

What is the fundamental will of the Father in heaven for each of us? To love Him with all of our being. As Jesus said, this is the FIRST and GREAT commandment. Those who obey God's other commands and attempt to serve Him without obeying this prime command will find themselves one day standing before the Lord hearing from his lips, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

But even when we do not desire to obey God's commands we still ought to obey them. Indeed, that's what makes it obedience! When we do it even though we don't want to do it we are submitting ourselves to the Lordship of Christ.

Inasmuch as God's commands to us protect us as we obey them, it is worthwhile obeying them even when a heart of love does not prompt that obedience. But as I've explained, such obedience should never become the norm for a true disciple of Christ. In fact, I would go so far as to say that what fundamentally distinguishes a true believer from a false one is a heart of love for God.

 

[Kenny'sID]

There's a false teaching floating around out there in evangelicalism that obedience for obedience' sake is a bad thing. Or that duty for duty's sake is a bad thing. An example would be someone who's unwilling to go to church or read the Bible because they don't want to. And if they don't want to do it, it would be somehow bad or perhaps Pharisaical to do it just because it's the right thing to do. They suppose that until they really want to do it, it would be better to refrain from doing it entirely.

I was with you until I read the example. Yes, those things can be important, all depending if you have already read the bible several times, but not even commandments if you mean appearing at a church building once a week.

I don't go to church, I learn here, and usually only read the bible if I need to reference something. As far as obedience to do the things we are told not to do, and the things we are told to do, yes, I agree, in spite of some saying it makes one guilty of legalism to insist obedience is a requirement of salvation...which often just makes me laugh. The things they will say to defend that just tickle me.

It's controlling the flesh, but not because you're doing it to be saved. You are already saved.

Wrong.

 

[FireDragon76]

You don't see "doing what God says, even though I don't want to" as "obedience to God"?

It's at best its a joyless obedience, not the christian ideal. And one fraught with the danger of losing ones integrity as a human being.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Well, it is. Not once do you see such obedience urged in the New Testament.

That makes the point I just mentioned of the things people will say to back their easy way illusion.

I believe these are all New Testament and if they don't "urge" obedience, or else, I don't know what does.

Here then are five lists. they are not exhaustive and there are other sins mentioned elsewhere (e.g. refusal to forgive, cf Matt 6:15) Please reflect on, and share these lists.

1 Cor 6:9-10 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexual offenders, nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were.

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3-6 But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. For of this you can be sure: No sexually immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.

Rev. 22:12-16 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

Matt 25:41-46 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

And finally just a general warning from the Lord:

John 5:28-29 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

 

[Phil 1:21]

If one does not take joy in doing God's will, one had to wonder if they have true love for God.

 

[Almost there]

Wrong.

No. Right. Unless you disagree with me, which is your God given right. Opinions vary.

 

[Tree of Life]

It's at best its a joyless obedience, not the christian ideal. And one fraught with the danger of losing ones integrity as a human being.

I granted in the OP that this is not the ideal. But if it's between this and utter disobedience, obedience (however imperfect) is always better.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No. Right. Unless you disagree with me, which is your God given right. Opinions vary.

See my next post and the scripture therein, and explain how it's just my opinion and not fact...please.