Lesbian bishop installs Muslim prayer space

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Kenny'sID

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No. My Church accepts LGBT people including as candidates for ordination. Jesus fellowshipped with all kinds of people not once did he declare anyone beyond the pale except, interestingly, those religious people who felt sure they were right.

That's too bad.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ans/5-11.htm&usg=AOvVaw3nXc1zcEIwz7dtlKjVUw-h
1 Corinthians 5

11But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
 
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FireDragon76

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Is not being obedient to God part of the Gospel?

As Lutherans understand it, strictly speaking, no. We distinguish between Law and Gospel. Law is God's demands on us based on the moral law, Gospel is God's promises of forgiveness and eternal life. Christ fulfilled the demands of the moral law for us, and God imputes to us his righteous status.

We emphasize the Gospel, because that is what Christians have tended to minimize historically.

FWIW, I know people who stick strictly to the part of the word/bible that allows them to do as they wish and either ignore or exlpain away, if they must, the rest of it.

We don't view ourselves as doing that. The Scriptures are the highest authority in our tradition ,but we obviously understand them differently.
 
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Kenny'sID

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Jesus fellowshipped with all kinds of people not once did he declare anyone beyond the pale except, interestingly, those religious people who felt sure they were right.

The wording there is quit interesting...

So you're saying those of us who believe what the Bible says about homosexuality, and think we are right because the Bible says we are right, we are the ones declared beyond the pale, not the homosexuals?
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. KJV

Would this also apply to womenkind ?

ie

Thou shalt nor lie with womankind as with mankind: it is abomination

That seems likely, considering:

Romans 1:
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:​

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.​
 
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prodromos

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People here are defending this? Man, this world is weird..
The evil one has been working towards this for decades, subtly getting people to accept the abominable as good and blasphemy as praiseworthy.
 
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FireDragon76

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Good honest answer, and the way you worded it, you seem to understand completely where you are at.

I am sorry I was snippy earlier with people. It is difficult to explain the influence Lutheranism has been on my life. I get defensive sometimes. Lutheranism has a great treasure and I don't want it to be hidden away, so you must forgive my zeal.

Sometimes Lutherans are accused of being antinomian, because we do not emphasize God's law the same way other Christians do. But I think we just understand God's law differently. We believe in doing good in the world, but not in a particularly religious way. We don't emphasize using the Law as a guide for Christian behavior in the same way as other churches do.

I am formerly Eastern Orthodox and I left the church because me and my partner are disabled, so we could not marry, and my priest told me I was excommunicated. I made my way to the Lutheran church through alot of prayer, and a little bit of study. It has been great because I have found Christians who are not legalistic, and understand what it is like to feel broken and powerless.

It might be hard to understand where we are coming from, if you are used to other Christian traditions. We Lutherans believe human beings are by nature powerless and helpless to please God, to love God and serve him as he deserves. It's not a matter of just not willing to do good, but unable to be good enough. So we needed God himself to step into our broken humanity and do what we could not do, to bridge the gap between God and us. As a result, we have an ethic of compassion, and we are willing to put aside moral scruples much of the time in the name of helping people, especially helping people to feel loved and accepted by God. Because that is exactly what God has done in Christ ,he has set aside the demands of the moral law because he loves us, and because Christ has fulfilled all righteousness for us. We look to things like sciences and humanities to help us guide us in our ethics, but our primary example is always Jesus.

The Lutheran understanding of the Gospel is an important thing in today's spiritually confused world. It has set me free from the dark side of religion, and that is why I am so particular about it.

So... I can understand where Bishop Brunne is coming from. I too want Muslims to feel safe and loved. If that means giving Muslims a space to worship in a way that they can understand, I do not see it as a heinous sin. I would prefer a cross to be there, but I don't see how its bad to be kind to strangers who may be very far away from home.

My discomfort with evangelicals worshipping at my church is because I know exactly how this sort of Christian religion works, and it very far from how I understand the Gospel now as a Christian. In fact I would say it has more in common with Islam than with my faith. Sure, it has Jesus, but its not usually the Jesus I know, the one that came for the least, the lost, and the last, and he gives them the Kingdom as a free gift. It is not an offer of salvation, it is a gift.

In comparison most evangelicals preach a message of moralism, if not legalism, just as the Orthodox do, not that different from the Muslim. The Muslim knows no better, but the christian claims to know Jesus. So, I am tempted to judge the Christian more harshly.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Because that is exactly what God has done in Christ ,he has set aside the demands of the moral law because he loves us, and because Christ has fulfilled all righteousness for us. We look to things like sciences and humanities to help us guide us in our ethics, but our primary example is always Jesus.

You may have set aside the moral law but Jesus did not
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
 
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prodromos

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Jesus also said, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".
We are called to be transformed by the Gospel and become holy, not to remain in our sins.
 
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FireDragon76

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You may have set aside the moral law but Jesus did not
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Jesus commandment in that passage was that we love one another. It is important to not take that verse out of context.

The people in my church love effortlessly, if not perfectly, at least their love is genuine. I've had too much of fake love in other Christians, enough to last me a lifetime.

Jesus also said, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".

Law, meet Gospel.

We are called to be transformed by the Gospel and become holy, not to remain in our sins.

The Lutheran understanding of the Gospel is the only Gospel that can truly transform. Not perfectly in this world, but perfectly in the next.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Jesus commandment, his mandate (hence the name Maundy Thursday), in that passage was that we love one another. It is important to not take that verse out of context.

I disagrre with you statement above as later in the chapter it says

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jesus wrote the ten commandments (MY WORDS) with his own finger. He also spoke them.

The two love commandments are a summary of the ten. The first four show how to love GOD and the last six shows us how to love our neighbor.

Are you taking it out of context?
 
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FireDragon76

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I disagrre with you statement above as later in the chapter it says

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Matthew 4:4
But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Jesus wrote the ten commandments (MY WORDS) with his own finger. He also spoke them.

The two love commandments are a summary of the ten. The first four show how to love GOD and the last six shows us how to love our neighbor.

Are you taking it out of context?

I reject that sort of biblicism. We need to look at each book in its own context and try to gather the themes present, then we try to link the overall themes of the Scriptures together. Jesus, in John, is talking about love as the commandment he leaves the disciples. That is how we show forth to the world we are his disciples, by our love. He is not telling us to all become Seventh Day Adventists.
 
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Original Happy Camper

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I reject that sort of biblicism. We need to look at each book in its own context and try to gather the themes present, then we try to link the overall themes of the Scriptures together. Jesus, in John, is talking about love as the commandment he leaves the disciples. That is how we show forth to the world we are his disciples, by our love. He is not telling us to all become Seventh Day Adventists.

I will not respond to futher posts by you.

May GOD Bless you
 
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FireDragon76

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When a liberal cannot defend they go on the attack. That is how I see your last sentence.

It has nothing to do with me being a liberal, and everything to do with you attacking the basis of my faith. The distinction between Law and Gospel is basic to the Lutheran approach to reading the Scriptures. In regards to Law, we always see demands that condemn us and make us dead. Demands that are only perfectly fulfilled in Christ, who can make us alive. Christ makes us alive through preaching the word of forgiveness and the healing of the sacraments.

To make dead men live does not ask for more Law, but more Gospel.

Only a heart that is freed from the condemnation of the demands of the law is free to do real good works pleasing to God. So when you emphasize only the Law, you do not preach the Gospel rightly and your hearers will have no good fruit. You will create religious robots, not freed souls who willingly follow Jesus.
 
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prodromos

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Law, meet Gospel.
Without repentance, how can there be forgiveness? God is patient, but if we obstinately remain in our sin, we are not able to receive the Grace of God's forgiveness.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Eva Brunne is the world's first openly lesbian bishop. She was promoted to her position by the Church of Sweden in 2009. Obviously, this means the Church of Sweden is apostate and appears to be a politically correct, social club that is stripped of biblical truth. Nevertheless, in Sweden, there is a church is located on the waterfront in Stockholm1. Being a international waterfront location sometimes Muslims enter the port. So, Eva's misguided attempt to accomodate the Muslims is to remove Christian crosses and establish a prayer space for Muslims - in the Church located in Stockholm. She said that airports and hospitals have accommodations for Muslims, so it's only natural to have the same thing in their waterfront church.

Sounds nice doesn't it. But, maybe she doesn't know what it means to be a Christian. But of course not given her outright rebellious sin of lesbianism.

Lesbian bishop in Sweden calls for church to remove crosses and install Muslim prayer space | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry


The cross was removed from that place a long long time ago.
 
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FireDragon76

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Without repentance, how can there be forgiveness? God is patient, but if we obstinately remain in our sin, we are not able to receive the Grace of God's forgiveness.

To repent is to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the messianic age has dawned. We should live in accordance with that. We should feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick, and welcome the stranger. My church does those things. They certainly welcomed me as a stranger. That is how I know they are true Christians.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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I'm saying what you are talking about is not truely biblical. Worshipping the one true God, and having the correct beliefs about him, are separate issues. Jesus said even the Samaritans worship what they do not know, meaning it is possible for people outside the faith to worship God.


No, clearly Jesus was rebuking their worship and the fact that they had lost the way entirely. Then he points back to himself directly.

John 4: 20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.
 
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