If somebody practices a sinful life claiming to be saved, how would you minister to him/her?

[Halbhh]

I am at a point in my life where I get really dismayed going back and forth with some loved ones about right and wrong. I find myself disagreeing about topics I never thought I'd disagree with a fellow believer about.

When somebody says they are saved yet live like an unbeliever, I find myself wondering, "Do I believe the claim or the actions?"

I'm all the way burnt out on that go-to line "Well we're not to judge." I've long ago started to believe that a believer's way of judging should not be in pre-determining somebody's destination. But to instead discern the fruits of a person's lifestyle and treat that person as either a fellow disciple (sharing/communicating the Word mutually whether conversationally, instructionally, or correctively) OR treat him/her like someone who doesn't know Christ (sharing the gospel to evangelize the person regardless of their claim to salvation). Otherwise, I will find myself blindsided by my own assumption and end up in more heated discussions over issues I thought were pretty basic Biblically.

Does anybody ever find themselves feeling like you don't want to "judge" in humanly interpretation of the word but need to make some type of judgment call to determine how to communicate with a person in sin claiming salvation?

It's good enough to say something from scripture that you think needs to be said, and leave it at that, letting conscience and the spirit work.

Consider His way --

“Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?”
31 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.” (Luke 5)

It's sinners who need Christianity.

That's us of course, and 'them' too.

Here's the ultimate guide on how to talk with people:

"So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you" (Matthew 7:12)

If we tried to eject people that sin from churches, our churches would be mostly empty, and the remaining mostly hiding stuff, except for only the old.

Christianity is a walk, so that over time there is change.

The best way to help our brothers and sisters is for we ourselves to show Christ in our actions and words in a very real and true way.

So, the way to respond to other sinners is to love them, and show them Christ, and perhaps invite them to Bible study, and be patient, and pray for them.

In other words, instead of divorcing them, invite them into your home for dinner!

.

 

[Dave-W]

Funny how music becomes a totally a religious topic than any other kind of job situation..IMO the bible doesn't restrict Christians with gifts to commit that talent only to the Lord.

Those of us that grew up with Gothardism fought that fight 45-50 years ago. I was rebuked by my organ teacher for picking Bach fugues in minor keys. And for choosing rock-based christian songs.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

I would like to see this scripture ref. Are you saying that God only hears the Prayers of the Saved?

I believe the ONLY prayer HE hears from the UNSAVED is the prayer of repentance (not sure what verse on that one, but my pastor said it. I believe HE hears prayers of the SAVED, but maybe doesn't consider answering them if they are living in blatant, daily in-your-face sins .. based on

If I regard wickedness in my heart, The Lord will not hear; Psalm 66:18

If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, Heb 10:26

Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God. 1 John 3:9

Are you of the mind that God cant save unless the bible is read first? Or that to remain saved, you must start reading it? Are the sons God those who are lead by the spirit and who read the bible, Or was being lead by the Spirit the only given requirement?

Goodness.. No. He saves when we repent and put our trust in HIM as Lord and Savior. I believe once saved always saved. But, if you claim to be Christian, and haven't read HIS love letter to us, the divine revelation of HIMSELF, and express NO desire to do so - something is seriously wrong. Not saying not saved if you don't read your bible, just saying something is spiritually wrong.

 

[Kit Sigmon]

I agree. But we can't forget the many sins that offend others that we have to criticize in a sense just as John the Baptist as well as Paul criticized adultery.

My own personal experience with going back and forth with a proclaimed believer has been my friend's former husband who was physically abusing and threatening her yet boasting he was not out of line for it.

A couple of questions:Your friend, did she call the police and report the times she was physically abused?
Did she separate from her abusive husband?


A relative who is wrecking another man's family keeping company with the man's wife while proclaiming Christ. There has been alcohol abuse and driving under the influence. And so on... different people.

Was Matthew 18:15-17 done?The Word of God says to to do this in Matthew 18:15-17:"Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."


My point is not to find excuse to argue with any of them, tho I have with some. My point is, instead of passively retiring to a place of silence so as not to be "judgmental", when is the time to see the fruits of a person's life, roll up the sleeves and minister Christ to them as if they have never said the sinner's prayer?

The Word says not to do it hypocritically....that's the kind of judging were not to engage in.


Tomorrow is not promised. So, at what point does it become an urgent mission? Sure, be gentle. Be gracious. But have such terms like "gentle" and "grace" been so modernized and Americanized that we've really lost the definition of them and thus the effectiveness of them concerning how they tie into the sharing of the gospel?

Are our ministers preaching repentance and teaching God's Word as it was done in both the old testament and in the new testament?
Five times in the first eleven chapters of the Book of Acts, immediately after Christ's ascension, the Apostle Peter preached a bold, strong message of repentance, examples: Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19; Acts 5:31; Acts 8:22; Acts 11:1-18.

There's to be a breaking up "the ground" before you can "plant seed"...'watering", "tending" and "reaping".

This type of preaching/teaching usually leads to persecution and also martyrdom...as it is shown in the Bible.


Acts 20
16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
18 And when they were come to him, he said unto them, Ye know, from the first day that I came into Asia, after what manner I have been with you at all seasons,
19 Serving the Lord with all humility of mind, and with many tears, and temptations, which befell me by the lying in wait of the Jews:
20 And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

From chapter 6 of Jeremiah...15 "Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination?
nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the Lord.
16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls.
But they said, We will not walk therein."

 

[unfinishedclay]

It depends on what one is defining as leading a sinful life..If you're speaking of this person being a liar or being a fornicator or an adulterer or a thief or something else that that's effecting someone else then that's one thing..but if you're speaking of something like them listening to rock music or watching Mel Gibson movies or horror movies then that's something else entirely,as it affects at the most,only themselves and even then not necessarily..

In a way, from this point of view...yes.
Besides the confrontations like husband physically abusing my childhood friend, relative boasting of Bible knowledge while courting another man's wife, teens who are "saved" coming around high as a kite on marijuana... The other back and forth discussions I've been in have been when comments are made to me in conversations or if I make comments about some topic that I didn't know would offend the other believer - topics that I thought were black and white on whether they are wrong or not. Over the years, I've just concluded that, if a believer lives like a nonbeliever, minister to them as if I'm trying to win them to Christ. Not saying preach to them yet certainly share the Word with them gently. And at the same time, point out Biblically why I do see an issue differently as they do - trusting that those Words from the Bible will plant/water seeds in their lives, especially when I explain them. If I assume a person in sin to be saved just because they said they are, and I don't point them in the right direction, I really am held accountable by God, aren't I?

 

[unfinishedclay]

Jesus called out the religious leader s particularly. Jesus called out only those abusing His religion. Not common people

ToBeLoved, those money changers in the temple were not specified as religious leaders. In Revelation, He addressed activities going on in 5 of 7 churches that were going to be met with consequences.
He doesn't have to per se "call out somebody" if He tells us there will be those on the right and those on the left. Those on the left will be thrown in the lake of fire and brimstone. And in Matthew 7, He said "Not everybody who calls Me 'Lord, Lord' will enter the Kingdom of God. But he who does the will." That passage is not calling anybody out directly. But if gives a message of what will take place and urges us to fulfill the commission to spread His Word.

 

[lastofall]

Where what the person values is, is where their heart will be also: likewise the Lord Jesus Christ warns us that not everyone that calls Him Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but only they that do the will of His Father which is in heaven. There is indeed an exactness of the matter.
(Matthew 6:21)
(Matthew 7:21)

 

[disciple1]

I am at a point in my life where I get really dismayed going back and forth with some loved ones about right and wrong. I find myself disagreeing about topics I never thought I'd disagree with a fellow believer about.

When somebody says they are saved yet live like an unbeliever, I find myself wondering, "Do I believe the claim or the actions?"

I'm all the way burnt out on that go-to line "Well we're not to judge." I've long ago started to believe that a believer's way of judging should not be in pre-determining somebody's destination. But to instead discern the fruits of a person's lifestyle and treat that person as either a fellow disciple (sharing/communicating the Word mutually whether conversationally, instructionally, or correctively) OR treat him/her like someone who doesn't know Christ (sharing the gospel to evangelize the person regardless of their claim to salvation). Otherwise, I will find myself blindsided by my own assumption and end up in more heated discussions over issues I thought were pretty basic Biblically.

Does anybody ever find themselves feeling like you don't want to "judge" in humanly interpretation of the word but need to make some type of judgment call to determine how to communicate with a person in sin claiming salvation?

If you kept the law you could judge by it, but you don't keep the law.


Romans chapter 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


We're to try to love like Christ.

Proverbs chapter 10 verse 12
Love covers all wrongs.

 

[Oldmantook]

I agree. But we can't forget the many sins that offend others that we have to criticize in a sense just as John the Baptist as well as Paul criticized adultery.

My own personal experience with going back and forth with a proclaimed believer has been my friend's former husband who was physically abusing and threatening her yet boasting he was not out of line for it. A relative who is wrecking another man's family keeping company with the man's wife while proclaiming Christ. There has been alcohol abuse and driving under the influence. And so on... different people.

My point is not to find excuse to argue with any of them, tho I have with some. My point is, instead of passively retiring to a place of silence so as not to be "judgmental", when is the time to see the fruits of a person's life, roll up the sleeves and minister Christ to them as if they have never said the sinner's prayer?

Tomorrow is not promised. So, at what point does it become an urgent mission? Sure, be gentle. Be gracious. But have such terms like "gentle" and "grace" been so modernized and Americanized that we've really lost the definition of them and thus the effectiveness of them concerning how they tie into the sharing of the gospel?

Paul the Apostle was not gentle with believers who willingly and stubbornly persisted in known sin. The Corinthian church was a train wreck and out of love - he admonished them sternly. He also gave the brothers and sisters in Rome this warning: "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Rom 8:12-13).
Like Paul, it is our obligation to warn those who claim to be believers that if they persist in habitual sin, they will die spiritually if they do not repent and stop in their sin. Hopefully, that will give them pause to consider their actions and repent. If they choose to ignore correction, then the consequence is eternal death - not eternal life.

 

[Open Heart]

I am at a point in my life where I get really dismayed going back and forth with some loved ones about right and wrong. I find myself disagreeing about topics I never thought I'd disagree with a fellow believer about.

When somebody says they are saved yet live like an unbeliever, I find myself wondering, "Do I believe the claim or the actions?"

I'm all the way burnt out on that go-to line "Well we're not to judge." I've long ago started to believe that a believer's way of judging should not be in pre-determining somebody's destination. But to instead discern the fruits of a person's lifestyle and treat that person as either a fellow disciple (sharing/communicating the Word mutually whether conversationally, instructionally, or correctively) OR treat him/her like someone who doesn't know Christ (sharing the gospel to evangelize the person regardless of their claim to salvation). Otherwise, I will find myself blindsided by my own assumption and end up in more heated discussions over issues I thought were pretty basic Biblically.

Does anybody ever find themselves feeling like you don't want to "judge" in humanly interpretation of the word but need to make some type of judgment call to determine how to communicate with a person in sin claiming salvation?

We are to judge actions, but not souls.

God wants us to know right from wrong -- cheating on taxes is either a sin or it's not a sin; fornication is either a sin or it's not a sin; gossip is either a sin or it's not a sin; taking God's name in vain is either a sin or it's not a sin. These are the sort of things we can know because 1. We can study scripture and 2. we can use our reasoning minds to discern if we are loving our neighbor as ourselves.

However, only God can see the heart. He alone knows who is making excuses and who is truly confused, and who is receiving the grace of the HS right where they are (wherever that is). Every person is different. Some people have more light, and God requires more of them. An adult has more moral responsibility than a four year old. Some people, for no known reason, just seem to have been born with more wisdom. Others are born with brain abnormalities, such as problems with their amygdala and underactive frontal cortex leading to a lack of conscience. Does God require the same from the latter as from the former? ONLY GOD CAN SEE THE HEART. We have no business sitting in judgment saying, "That person isn't a REAL Christian."

If someone believes that Jesus died for their sins, is raised from the dead, and will come again, and is baptized, meaning they claim to be a Christian, take them at their word. If they are living in serious sin, then you can (at the right time, in the right way, in love) tell them that they are being hypocritical, that they are talking the talk but not walking the walk. It's important to admit that living a Christian life isn't easy and that we all fall short.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am at a point in my life where I get really dismayed going back and forth with some loved ones about right and wrong. I find myself disagreeing about topics I never thought I'd disagree with a fellow believer about.

When somebody says they are saved yet live like an unbeliever, I find myself wondering, "Do I believe the claim or the actions?"

I'm all the way burnt out on that go-to line "Well we're not to judge." I've long ago started to believe that a believer's way of judging should not be in pre-determining somebody's destination. But to instead discern the fruits of a person's lifestyle and treat that person as either a fellow disciple (sharing/communicating the Word mutually whether conversationally, instructionally, or correctively) OR treat him/her like someone who doesn't know Christ (sharing the gospel to evangelize the person regardless of their claim to salvation). Otherwise, I will find myself blindsided by my own assumption and end up in more heated discussions over issues I thought were pretty basic Biblically.

Does anybody ever find themselves feeling like you don't want to "judge" in humanly interpretation of the word but need to make some type of judgment call to determine how to communicate with a person in sin claiming salvation?

The problem here is that most Christians today believe in Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved doctrine of some kind. Many can even appear to be for holiness, but they really believe that a Christian can willingly plan to do evil and still be saved. I have argued against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief for many years. Most simply do not want to see it.

However, you do have a right to stand up and tell other Christians that what they are doing is sinful and wrong because all Scripture is profitable for correction and doctrine. For we are told by Paul not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather... reprove them. For why should we correct another believer? Because we care for their soul. For we should love all people.

Sometimes others may take it as us being hateful by exposing their error, but sometimes love is tough. In fact, love was tough when Jesus was tough enough to be able to be whipped and then crucified upon a cross for our sins. That's a tough love. Yet, a beautiful love. For our Savior was willing to lay down His life for us. How can we do any less for others?

I will be praying for your situation.

Important Note:

Please pray and fast so as to let God speak through you when you do decide to talk to them.
May God bless you;
And may you please be well.

 

[W2L]

No born again believer can sin without paying for it. God chastises those he loves.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you kept the law you could judge by it, but you don't keep the law.


Romans chapter 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.


We're to try to love like Christ.

Proverbs chapter 10 verse 12
Love covers all wrongs.

Paul is talking about the Old Law and not the New Law (i.e. the Commands give to us by Jesus and His followers). Love is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 13:8-10). For if you love your neighbor you will not steal, murder, or covet, etc. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15). So yes, we are to keep God's laws or commands. If not, we really don't love Jesus.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No born again believer can sin without paying for it. God chastises those he loves.

And she can be an instrument in chastising them.

 

[W2L]

And she can be an instrument in chastising them.

She?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are to judge actions, but not souls.

God wants us to know right from wrong -- cheating on taxes is either a sin or it's not a sin; fornication is either a sin or it's not a sin; gossip is either a sin or it's not a sin; taking God's name in vain is either a sin or it's not a sin. These are the sort of things we can know because 1. We can study scripture and 2. we can use our reasoning minds to discern if we are loving our neighbor as ourselves.

However, only God can see the heart. He alone knows who is making excuses and who is truly confused, and who is receiving the grace of the HS right where they are (wherever that is). Every person is different. Some people have more light, and God requires more of them. An adult has more moral responsibility than a four year old. Some people, for no known reason, just seem to have been born with more wisdom. Others are born with brain abnormalities, such as problems with their amygdala and underactive frontal cortex leading to a lack of conscience. Does God require the same from the latter as from the former? ONLY GOD CAN SEE THE HEART. We have no business sitting in judgment saying, "That person isn't a REAL Christian."

If someone believes that Jesus died for their sins, is raised from the dead, and will come again, and is baptized, meaning they claim to be a Christian, take them at their word. If they are living in serious sin, then you can (at the right time, in the right way, in love) tell them that they are being hypocritical, that they are talking the talk but not walking the walk. It's important to admit that living a Christian life isn't easy and that we all fall short.

No. I will not take them at their word. I will determine if they are a true child of God or not by the fact that they work righteousness. See 1 John 3:10.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

She?

Unfinished Clay.

 

[disciple1]

Paul is talking about the Old Law and not the New Law (i.e. the Commands give to us by Jesus and His followers). Love is the fulfillment of the Law (Romans 13:8-10). For if you love your neighbor you will not steal, murder, or covet, etc. Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. So yes, we are to keep God's laws or commands. If not, we really don't love Jesus.

Jesus says if you love me, keep my commandments. So yes, we are to keep God's laws or commands. If not, we really don't love Jesus.

Since your saying that, your lying since you don't keep them, and your also saying you don't love Jesus.

Romans chapter 4
13 It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

Galatians chapter 3 verse 17

What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

The law introduced 2000 years later also doesn't do away with the promise, think about it, or do you think only the law introduced 2000 years later does away with the promise.


Proverbs chapter 10 verse 12
Love covers all wrongs.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Since your saying that, your lying since you don't keep them, and your also saying you don't love Jesus.

Galatians chapter 3 verse 17

What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.

The law introduced 2000 years later also doesn't do away with the promise, think about it, or do you think only the law introduced 2000 years later does away with the promise.


Proverbs chapter 10 verse 12
Love covers all wrongs.

"This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise." (Galatians 3:17) (NLT).

But what's the context?

The Galatians were trying to get involved in "Circumcision Salvationism" so as to be right with God.

We see the variation of the word "circumcision" appear 6 times in Galatians 2.

Also, in Galatians 5:2, Paul says,
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Circumcision was a part of the Old Law and not the laws or commands given to us by Jesus and His followers (Under the New Covenant). Yes, Paul's point is that you need to first have FAITH in Jesus to be saved. That is how we are initially and ultimately saved. Jesus is the foundation of our faith. No law keeping alone can save us. We need Jesus first. That is the point Paul was trying to make. Paul was not against obedience or Sanctification as a part of God's grace. The two go hand in hand. See Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14.

Also, loving God and loving your neighbor goes hand in hand with obedience to God's moral laws (like "do not murder", "do not covet", "do not steal", etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10; John 14:15). Jesus says, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

As for Proverbs 10:12:

Romans 13:8-10 says the same thing.

 

[disciple1]

"This is what I am trying to say: The agreement God made with Abraham could not be canceled 430 years later when God gave the law to Moses. God would be breaking his promise." (Galatians 3:17) (NLT).

But what's the context?

The Galatians were trying to get involved in "Circumcision Salvationism" so as to be right with God.

We see the variation of the word "circumcision" appear 6 times in Galatians 2.

Also, in Galatians 5:2, Paul says,
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Circumcision was a part of the Old Law and not the laws or commands given to us by Jesus and His followers (Under the New Covenant). Yes, Paul's point is that you need to first have FAITH in Jesus to be saved. That is how we are initially and ultimately saved. Jesus is the foundation of our faith. No law keeping alone can save us. We need Jesus first. That is the point Paul was trying to make. Paul was not against obedience or Sanctification as a part of God's grace. The two go hand in hand. See Ephesians 5:25-27 and Titus 2:14.

Also, loving God and loving your neighbor goes hand in hand with obedience to God's moral laws (like "do not murder", "do not covet", "do not steal", etc.) (See Romans 13:8-10; John 14:15). Jesus says, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

As for Proverbs 10:12:

Romans 13:8-10 says the same thing.

But what's the context?

The Galatians were trying to get involved in "Circumcision Salvationism" so as to be right with God.

We see the variation of the word "circumcision" appear 6 times in Galatians 2.

Also, in Galatians 5:2, Paul says,
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing."

Circumcision was a part of the Old Law and not the laws or commands given to us by Jesus

I think you missed everything.
Genesis chapter 17 verse 24
Abraham was ninety-nine years old when he was circumcised,
Galatians chapter 3 verse 17
What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.