This doesn't make sense. I was not comparing Jesus to the current world view of western society - whatever that means, and we don't need to know his mind.
We do need to know the mind of Jesus, this is where a real and tangible relationship grows, that is I in him and he in me.
Go back and re-read the word of God and discern what Jesus wants of us. Thank you.
Scripture says that he ate and drank with tax collectors and sinners; I provided the verses.
Correct.
In my book, that means that he associated with them. Your view seems to be that anyone who associates with sinners adopts their lifestyle and becomes a sinner; I disagree.
No, that is not what I said. I repeat, that to associate with a person who wilfully continues in a lifestyle of sin is sinning by association.
Jesus association with sinners is to reconcile them back to the Father, by getting them to turn back from their wicked ways. He would not continue his association with sinners who wilfully continued a lifestyle of sin, after having given them the ultimatum to repent or else, as scripture clearly highlights his reaction and condemnatiom of the people of the cities who rejected his ultimatum and continued in their sinful lifestyles.
So Jesus only ate and drank with those sinners who he knew were going to repent?
yes, just like the tax collector and the prostitute etc. The Pharisees and the Scribes are a perfect example of those who continued to reject his ultimatum, thereby sinning against the Holy God. He never ate with them, even when he said unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:20), because what they did was a wilful lifestyle of sin, that Jesus could not stand. Imagine the peoples of Capernaum amongst others and discern how angry Jesus was of those who wilfully live a flagrant lifestyle of sin.
Do you know the mind of Jesus Christ?
You and others ought to friends.
Are you saying that if God sees a sinner and knows that they will never repent, he doesn't bother with them? Where's your Scripture for that?
Yes! The Holy Bible in its entirety. As I recommended that you go back and re-read the Word of God and discern how sharp and cutting is his metron (measure).
Don't mess with him!
Maybe he did, but Scripture does not always record that.
Are you sure!
People criticised Jesus for eating with tax collectors and sinners - yet nowhere do we read, "Jesus answered, 'don't worry guys, I'm only doing it so they will repent'."
Really, are you serious!
You are implying he was doing it for the fun of it to pass his time, or the food and drinks were good.
Is not your statement below condescending towards our Lord and saviour....
"don't worry guys, I'm only doing it so they will repent"
As I said previously....."
don't mess with him!"
So, what if she HAD sinned? What if she'd gone back to her former ways, even if only briefly? Are you saying that God wouldn't have bothered with her in the first place, or that he would have withdrawn his love after she sinned?
This is preposterous speech, that implies a distrust in the Lord, for the purpose of lowering confidence in his almighty works and almighty ways. Your remarks are condescending and should be retracted.
As I said previously....."
don't mess with him!"
Well sorry, but I think you've come to the wrong conclusion.
Really!
Jesus said to the crowd that the person who had never sinned could throw the first stone at the woman. The crowd put down their stones and walked away - at least they knew that they couldn't claim to be perfect.
They wilfully sinned and that is why Jesus never sat or ate with them, as I previously mentioned. Their action was a testimony of their continued wilful sinful lifestyles. Highlight the word wilful please.
Jesus then said to the woman, "has no one condemned you?" "no-one" she replied. Then Jesus said "nor do I condemn you"
That, there and then should tell you that God has spoken, for God would not have said those words unless it is known to him that this woman has turned from her days of
Prostitution.
Do you have confidence in your Lord and saviour my friend?
Jesus was perfect and was the only one there who could have thrown a stone at her; but he didn't. He would not condemn - blame, judge - her for her sin of adultery. Yes, he said "sin no more", but he did not forgive her because he knew that she would sin no more.
This foreign and preposterous speech, is pure loss of confidence in the Lord.
Where is your faith in the Lord?
It doesn't say he died for ONCE sinners.
You have ripped the context. There is no reply because you did this deliberately, why?
Jesus died for sinners. Someone may live a sinful life for many years; Jesus died for them. When they become Christians they will still sin - we all do - and may occasionally even fall away or turn back to their old lifestyle; Jesus still died for them.
You are trying to justify sin in this speech and I will not entertain this rhetoric.
Otherwise, it sounds like you would say to someone; God loves you and Jesus died for you because he knew you would repent and follow him. If at any point you fall away, sin and stop following him; that's it.
Totally illogical and misinformed to say the least. Know the mind of Jesus and then report back.
I know you haven't used these words, but your message appears to be that God will only associate with, love and forgive those who he knows will listen and repent.
Absolutely! You didn't know that!
That is why he didn't associate with the Pharisees and the scribes because they didn't listen and repent as he said.....
There is one greater than all and you do not come to me. Coming to Jesus is to understand his mind and to be one with him in heart. For a person cannot wilfully continue in sin and still claim to be one with Jesus. This is the strong delusion.
In other words, his love is dependant upon our repentance. No. God loves because he IS love.
Absolutely! For repentance and doing the will of the Father is mandatory.
If a Christian says "Jesus died for me and will always forgive me, so I can live as I like", that is obviously wrong. That is what the Corinthians believed - Christ had set them free so they could do what they pleased; and Paul had to correct them.
Ha ha ha! Really!
You must be joking!
Personally I don't believe that someone who has experienced the mercy, love and forgiveness of God will WANT to sin, continue with their previous lifestyle and hurt him. Scripture says "we love because God first loved us". God loves us, we respond to that love, are able to love him and show love to others. If you love someone, you don't deliberately plan to hurt and disobey them.
So, repent and do the will of the Father, that is if that person is at all genuine in what he/she says or believes.
But we all still sin, and God still loves and forgives us when we do. Even if someone repented from lustful thoughts, then gave into them, or worse still, acted on them, God would forgive again. There are Christians who can testify to that fact.
God judges the heart. The Pharisees thought they were in. How wrong they were.
Like I said, it depends what you mean by "associate with".
You know.
But if you mean that we cannot befriend, or help, someone who is a homosexual, a thief or whatever; I disagree.
Help them grow in sin? How preposterous to do such a thing and it is considered counterproductive to the gospel of repentance onto salvation through Christ Jesus.
I would not socialise with someone who I knew abused children, but I wouldn't refuse to let them use a food bank and let them have food. In the voluntary work that I do, if I said, "I will only help people who don't steal, get drunk, use drugs, hurt people, who aren't homosexuals and who have never been to prison"; first of all, I'd be asked to leave, and secondly, I would not help very many people.
They don't need water or food, they need to be one with Jesus.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers. (Matthew 7)
I may answer the rest of your post later.
Fine.
Basically, what I am saying is that God loves everyone, Christ died for sinners - which is everyone - and so it is not wrong to associate with them.
Logical fallacy. Jesus did not associate with the Pharisees and the Scribes even if they taught righteousness. God does not love everyone!
Jesus replied, "All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them. (John 14)
I am saying that I would not refuse to talk to, help, listen to or provide the basics in life to someone who I knew was an alcoholic, or homosexual. Personally, I would not say "if you repent, you can have this help", or "if you repent, I will talk to you and befriend you." That makes my friendship and offers of help dependant upon their repentance. That is not what God does. If God loved and forgave only those who repented, that would mean that salvation depended on our good works, and that we could earn it. If God loved and forgave only those who loved him and repented, he would be doing what Jesus told us NOT to do. Jesus said, "be perfect as God is perfect".
Which god and what gospel are you preaching from?
Woe to the Unrepentant
(
Luke 10:13-16)
20Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (Matthew 11)
But if you are saying that when someone becomes a Christian they should not wilfully return to the lifestyle from which they were saved; I agree. If you are loved and forgiven by God, you show, and I think would want to show, your love for him by breaking away from your former lifestyle.
This is a different topic, so please don't venture off.
In some circumstances, God may ask you to continue to befriend these people - for example, people who have been in prison and become Christians have done an enormous amount of work with offenders and ex offenders.
This is not what I meant by using the term association. Association means to sit down and to be friends and to have a meal together and in your heart, you no longer see that individual as wilfully living a sinful lifestyle, but one that you now embrace and then later defend. This is exactly the path the fallen churches have followed. In this regard they become complicit in the willful crimes against God and are also sinning by association and have foresaken the covenant of his Son.
The example you have given is a missionary
work, not to be confused with the term association. In your heart you still see that individual separated from God.
But I think a person should wait for God's guidance. A new Christian who said "I've been saved from alcoholism, so I'm going to hang out with alcoholics so I can witness to them", without a clear leading from God, may just get sucked back into that lifestyle. That would be foolish but God would still forgive them if they repented again.
Sure! But at what risk and at what cost. Why throw yourself into the lions den if you don't have to?
Maybe because you like to! Hmmmmn.....food for thought.....
That is why Lot's wife turned back, because she missed the company of the sinners left behind in the city. If you turn your back on Jesus, it maybe be at your own peril and your last. Think about it for a moment.
