Is "Christian Zionism" an Oxymoron?

[jgr]

The system of worship described in Ezekiel is NOT the system of worship contained in the covenant that has been taken away. It is a different system designed for the New Covenant. You have seen me state thus repeatedly, and have not even bothered to check and see if it is correct. For if you had bothered to do this, you would have indeed seen that this is a 100% accurate statement. If you do not believe this is correct,then, instead of railing about my evil in saying it, prove from the scriptures that it is not correct. This is something you simply cannot do. For both the sacrifices and the laws about how and by whom they are to be offered are different from those given to Moses.

As I look in the pages of my Bible, I see Ezekiel contained within that portion identified as the Old Will and Testament. I'm reasonably sure that the same is true of your own Bible.

If the system is designed for the New Covenant, why is it not found within the pages of the New Will and Testament? Or in its own separate section following the New Will and Testament?

 

[Biblewriter]

As I look in the pages of my Bible, I see Ezekiel contained within that portion identified as the Old Will and Testament. I'm reasonably sure that the same is true of your own Bible.

If the system is designed for the New Covenant, why is it not found within the pages of the New Will and Testament? Or in its own separate section following the New Will and Testament?

Did you notice the part that said that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable"? This was specifically said in the New Testament, concerning the promises made under the Old Testament. (Romans 11:28-29)

And perhaps you also missed the one that days "Search from the book of the LORD, and read: Not one of these shall fail; Not one shall lack her mate. For My mouth has commanded it, and His Spirit has gathered them." Isaiah 34:16

 

[BABerean2]

Did you notice the part that said that "the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable"? This was specifically said in the New Testament, concerning the promises made under the Old Testament. (Romans 11:28-29)

This is most certainly confirmed by Paul in Galatians 3:16.

And also in Romans 9:8.

You seem to be confusing the Baal worshippers with the faithful remnant in Romans 11:1-5.

You may need to go back and review Christ's words on the road to Emmaus.
The whole Old Testament is about Him.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

You may need to go back and review Christ's words on the road to Emmaus.
The whole Old Testament is about Him.

.

Yes, all of it is about one or the other of His two comings.

 

[jgr]

And perhaps you also missed the one that days "Search from the book of the LORD, and read: Not one of these shall fail; Not one shall lack her mate. For My mouth has commanded it, and His Spirit has gathered them." Isaiah 34:16

Isaiah 34
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Virtually the entire chapter is a prophecy of judgment upon Idumea (Edom).

It was ultimately fulfilled in the destruction by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

Verse 16 refers to the foregoing descriptions of the desolation following that destruction.

A good history lesson.

 

[Biblewriter]

Isaiah 34
5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Virtually the entire chapter is a prophecy of judgment upon Idumea (Edom).

It was ultimately fulfilled in the destruction by the Babylonians in the 6th century BC.

Verse 16 refers to the foregoing descriptions of the desolation following that destruction.

A good history lesson.

The prophecy in question says:

5 "For My sword shall be bathed in heaven; Indeed it shall come down on Edom, And on the people of My curse, for judgment. 6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, It is made overflowing with fatness, With the blood of lambs and goats, With the fat of the kidneys of rams. For the LORD has a sacrifice in Bozrah, And a great slaughter in the land of Edom. 7 The wild oxen shall come down with them, And the young bulls with the mighty bulls; Their land shall be soaked with blood, And their dust saturated with fatness." 8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9 Its streams shall be turned into pitch, And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch. 10 It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever. Isaiah 34:5-10

It is absolutely certain that this has NOT been fulfilled. This land is populated today, as part of the modern nation of Jordan. But when THIS prophecy is fulfilled, "no one shall pass through it forever and ever,"

 

[BABerean2]

 

[jgr]

It is absolutely certain that this has NOT been fulfilled. This land is populated today, as part of the modern nation of Jordan. But when THIS prophecy is fulfilled, "no one shall pass through it forever and ever,"

Where is the populated area relative to the ancient boundaries, and what is its population?

 

[Biblewriter]

Where is the populated area relative to the ancient boundaries, and what is its population?

The parts of ancient Edom that are part of modern Jordan include the governorates of Karak, (pop. 249,100) Tafilah, (pop. 89,400) Aqaba, (pop. 139,299) and the most heavily populated regions of Ma'an (pop. 121,400, urban pop. 66,600.) If we include only the urban portion of this last governorate, for almost all the cities of that governorate are in what was once Edom, we can reasonable estimate the Edomite region population of Ma'an at 66,600. This yields a population of 544,300 in just the part of ancient Edom that lies within the modern nation of Jordan. And this does not include the populations of the portions of ancient Edom that lie within Modern day Israel, or any parts that lie within Modern Saudi Arabia.

This information was fairly easy to find on the web. And as this alone is enough to positively prove my point, I am not going to bother to search for this data for these other regions.

And let us not forget, that the point is that ancient Edom was most certainly NOT destroyed so completely that "no one shall pass through it for ever and ever."

 

[jgr]

The parts of ancient Edom that are part of modern Jordan include the governorates of Karak, (pop. 249,100) Tafilah, (pop. 89,400) Aqaba, (pop. 139,299) and the most heavily populated regions of Ma'an (pop. 121,400, urban pop. 66,600.) If we include only the urban portion of this last governorate, for almost all the cities of that governorate are in what was once Edom, we can reasonable estimate the Edomite region population of Ma'an at 66,600. This yields a population of 544,300 in just the part of ancient Edom that lies within the modern nation of Jordan. And this does not include the populations of the portions of ancient Edom that lie within Modern day Israel, or any parts that lie within Modern Saudi Arabia.

This information was fairly easy to find on the web. And as this alone is enough to positively prove my point, I am not going to bother to search for this data for these other regions.

And let us not forget, that the point is that ancient Edom was most certainly NOT destroyed so completely that "no one shall pass through it for ever and ever."

Where do these populated areas lie relative to the Mount Seir region?

 

[Biblewriter]

Where do these populated areas lie relative to the Mount Seir region?

Mt Seir runs basically through northwestern Aqaba and up the western side of Tafilah. And most of the cities in this region are right along the edge of Mt. Seir.

 

[jgr]

Mt Seir runs basically through northwestern Aqaba and up the western side of Tafilah. And most of the cities in this region are right along the edge of Mt. Seir.

From Rock city of Petra, The Bible History of Edom :
The Lord’s vengenance against the Edomites was complete, and to this very day the mountains of Seir, Bozrah, Teman and Petra all lie as a barren wasteland in fulfillment of Scripture.

 

[Biblewriter]

From Rock city of Petra, The Bible History of Edom :
The Lord’s vengenance against the Edomites was complete, and to this very day the mountains of Seir, Bozrah, Teman and Petra all lie as a barren wasteland in fulfillment of Scripture.

You need to study a little current geography. This statement is ABSOLUTELY and TOTALLY incorrect.

 

[jgr]

You need to study a little current geography. This statement is ABSOLUTELY and TOTALLY incorrect.

Sounds like the scriptural fulfillment was intact until at least 1865. When between then and now did it fail?

In 1865, George Smith included two accounts that described what Petra was like in his day. Compare these descriptions with the prophecies written in the Bible 2,400 years earlier.

Captain Mangles, who visited these ruins, says, that when surveying the scenery of Petra, ‘the screaming of the eagles, hawks, and owls, who were soaring over our heads in considerable numbers, seemingly annoyed at any one approaching their lonely habitation, added much to the singularity of the scene.’[4]

So plentiful, as observed by Mr. Cory, ‘are the scorpions in Petra, that, though it was cold and snowy, we found them under the stones, sometimes two under one stone!’ The sheik, and his brother, who accompanied Mr. Cory, assured him that ‘both lions and leopards are often seen in Petra, and on the hills immediately beyond it, but that they never descend into the plain beneath.’[4]

 

[Biblewriter]

Sounds like the scriptural fulfillment was intact until at least 1865. When between then and now did it fail?

In 1865, George Smith included two accounts that described what Petra was like in his day. Compare these descriptions with the prophecies written in the Bible 2,400 years earlier.

Captain Mangles, who visited these ruins, says, that when surveying the scenery of Petra, ‘the screaming of the eagles, hawks, and owls, who were soaring over our heads in considerable numbers, seemingly annoyed at any one approaching their lonely habitation, added much to the singularity of the scene.’[4]

So plentiful, as observed by Mr. Cory, ‘are the scorpions in Petra, that, though it was cold and snowy, we found them under the stones, sometimes two under one stone!’ The sheik, and his brother, who accompanied Mr. Cory, assured him that ‘both lions and leopards are often seen in Petra, and on the hills immediately beyond it, but that they never descend into the plain beneath.’[4]

The exact location Biblical Teman is not known with certainty. But it is believed to be the modern city of,Ma’an, the capitol of the Jordanian governorance of Ma’an, with a current population of about 50,000.

The modern name of Dedan is Al-‘Ula. Old town Al-‘Ula was abandoned in 1983, the entire population relocating to nearby new town Al-‘Ula, because the ancient buildings, some thought to be over 2000 years old, did not meet modern living standards. I have not been able to determine the current population of this city.

Petra, whose Arabic name is Al-Batrā, is thought to be the Biblical city of Seir. It was continuously inhabited until 551 A.D., when the last inhabitants left when an earthquake destroyed much of the city's very complex water supply. It was rediscovered by the Europeans in 1812, and is currently under a 20 year redevelopment plan, begun in 2011.

And Mount Seir, as I said earlier, is the site of numerous Jordanian cities.

All this information is easily available on the internet, if you would just bother to actually check some of the “facts” you are alleging.

 

[jgr]

The exact location Biblical Teman is not known with certainty. But it is believed to be the modern city of,Ma’an, the capitol of the Jordanian governorance of Ma’an, with a current population of about 50,000.

The modern name of Dedan is Al-‘Ula. Old town Al-‘Ula was abandoned in 1983, the entire population relocating to nearby new town Al-‘Ula, because the ancient buildings, some thought to be over 2000 years old, did not meet modern living standards. I have not been able to determine the current population of this city.

Petra, whose Arabic name is Al-Batrā, is thought to be the Biblical city of Seir. It was continuously inhabited until 551 A.D., when the last inhabitants left when an earthquake destroyed much of the city's very complex water supply. It was rediscovered by the Europeans in 1812, and is currently under a 20 year redevelopment plan, begun in 2011.

And Mount Seir, as I said earlier, is the site of numerous Jordanian cities.

All this information is easily available on the internet, if you would just bother to actually check some of the “facts” you are alleging.

The allegation that God has not yet fulfilled His Word is not my allegation.


From The Disappearance of Edom :

"
The Land Speaks for Itself

Let the land that once was Edom speak for itself and announce its awesome conclusion:

“Today the land stands deserted, a mute testimony to the sure Word of the Lord. Petra is a remarkable example of the literal fulfillment of prophecy. This great ancient capital with its theatre seating 4,000, its temple, its altars and its monuments, is now silent and alone, decaying with the passage of time.” - David Higgins, “The Edomites Considered Historically and Prophetically” (Higgins was a DTS graduate)

“Scorpions and owls abound among its ruins. Burckhardt, one of the boldest and most daring of travellers, says he never knew what fear was until he came near Petra. At nightfall the jackal is heard from the top of the rocks, answered by another far up the Wadi.”- Herbert Stewart, The Stronghold of Prophecy, p. 71

“I would that the skeptic could stand as I did, among the ruins of this city among the rocks, and there open the sacred Book and read the words of the inspired penman, written when this desolate place was one of the greatest cities in the world. I see the scoffer arrested, his cheek pale, his lip quivering, and his heart quaking with fear, as the ruined city cries out to him in a voice loud and powerful.”- Alexander Keith, Evidence of the Truth of the Christian Religion, p. 339

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Obadiah and Malachi are God’s prophets!! The Bible is the Word of God!!
"

 

[Biblewriter]

The allegation that God has not yet fulfilled His Word is not my allegation.


From The Disappearance of Edom :

"
The Land Speaks for Itself

Let the land that once was Edom speak for itself and announce its awesome conclusion:

“Today the land stands deserted, a mute testimony to the sure Word of the Lord. Petra is a remarkable example of the literal fulfillment of prophecy. This great ancient capital with its theatre seating 4,000, its temple, its altars and its monuments, is now silent and alone, decaying with the passage of time.” - David Higgins, “The Edomites Considered Historically and Prophetically” (Higgins was a DTS graduate)

“Scorpions and owls abound among its ruins. Burckhardt, one of the boldest and most daring of travellers, says he never knew what fear was until he came near Petra. At nightfall the jackal is heard from the top of the rocks, answered by another far up the Wadi.”- Herbert Stewart, The Stronghold of Prophecy, p. 71

“I would that the skeptic could stand as I did, among the ruins of this city among the rocks, and there open the sacred Book and read the words of the inspired penman, written when this desolate place was one of the greatest cities in the world. I see the scoffer arrested, his cheek pale, his lip quivering, and his heart quaking with fear, as the ruined city cries out to him in a voice loud and powerful.”- Alexander Keith, Evidence of the Truth of the Christian Religion, p. 339

Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Obadiah and Malachi are God’s prophets!! The Bible is the Word of God!!
"

Yes. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Obadiah and Malachi are indeed God’s prophets!! But it is impossible to honestly read the prophecies about the destruction of the Arabic cities, carefully noting what they actually say, and fail to see that most of the details in almost every one of these prophecies were not actually fulfilled. Included in these details is the fact that when the destruction prophesied by God actually takes place, these places will NEVER be rebuilt.

While some of these Arabian places, including notably Petra, were eventually deserted, none of them were destroyed in the manner described in these prophecies, and all of them, including Petra, are again inhabited.

Compare this with the prophecy in Daniel 11, in which every detail through the middle of verse 35 was literally fulfilled in such precise accuracy that unbelievers claim that its very accuracy proves that it could not have been written before these events took place. But in the last part of verse 35, we find the words "until the time of the end," and nothing beyond that point has happened.

Yes, the Bible is indeed the Word of God. So if these prophecies have not actually been fulfilled, then we know, of a certainty, that they will be fulfilled in the future.

 

[BABerean2]

Ezekiel

New Covenant perspective of the "Dry Bones", by Brother David H J Gay.

08-The New Covenant in Ezekiel


The "everlasting covenant".

David Gay is author of the book "Christ is All".

.

 

[jgr]

Yes. Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Joel, Obadiah and Malachi are indeed God’s prophets!! But it is impossible to honestly read the prophecies about the destruction of the Arabic cities, carefully noting what they actually say, and fail to see that most of the details in almost every one of these prophecies were not actually fulfilled. Included in these details is the fact that when the destruction prophesied by God actually takes place, these places will NEVER be rebuilt.

While some of these Arabian places, including notably Petra, were eventually deserted, none of them were destroyed in the manner described in these prophecies, and all of them, including Petra, are again inhabited.

Compare this with the prophecy in Daniel 11, in which every detail through the middle of verse 35 was literally fulfilled in such precise accuracy that unbelievers claim that its very accuracy proves that it could not have been written before these events took place. But in the last part of verse 35, we find the words "until the time of the end," and nothing beyond that point has happened.

Yes, the Bible is indeed the Word of God. So if these prophecies have not actually been fulfilled, then we know, of a certainty, that they will be fulfilled in the future.

The predictable dispensational futurist response: "Yes........But......"

The cited individuals were obviously sufficiently convinced by the scriptural descriptions, and their own observations and experiences, to take God at His prophetic Word. They are in unanimous agreement with historic commentators. Higgins as a DTS alumnus is of particular interest. All of them recognize the intermixture of physical and metaphoric descriptions.


Daniel 11 has been fulfilled in its entirety. The latter portion of the chapter deals primarily with the reign of Herod the Great.

 

[Biblewriter]

The predictable dispensational futurist response: "Yes........But......"

The cited individuals were obviously sufficiently convinced by the scriptural descriptions, and their own observations and experiences, to take God at His prophetic Word. They are in unanimous agreement with historic commentators. Higgins as a DTS alumnus is of particular interest. All of them recognize the intermixture of physical and metaphoric descriptions.


Daniel 11 has been fulfilled in its entirety. The latter portion of the chapter deals primarily with the reign of Herod the Great.

Yes - the people who deny the literal acceptance of explicitly stated prophecies are unanimous in saying these prophecies have been fulfilled. That is really like saying that the Democrats are unanimous in agreeing that Republicans stink.

I have given you hard, indisputable facts, that these lands are not desolate, empty of inhabitants, but are in truth, actually populated districts. And you answer with a list of people who claim that the prophecies that they would lie desolate forever have indeed been fulfilled.