The Major Discrepancy Between Ezekiel and Johns New Jerusalem.

[Daniel Martinovich]

How do your views differ from Theonomy?

https://www.theopedia.com/Theonomy
What is dominion theology / theonomy / Christian reconstructionism?
Christian Reconstructionism, Theonomy | Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry

I remember such a discussion with a previous poster here on CF @Tree of Life . He may want to opine as well and I pinged him.

Not even close.

 

[redleghunter]

Not even close.

Thanks just wanted to confirm.

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

Understand your historical markers. I am familiar with them as some Eastern Orthodox have opined on them to me in the past. However, you do indicate "The day of vengeance of our God are the great days of judgement when Jeuses literally comes to earth to oversee those days." Is this a yet future literal judgment/Second coming for you? Or a successive 'interventions' without a physical return of Christ?

Did Jesus appear physically to Abraham at the judgment against Sodom and Gomorrah? Who shut the door on the ark when the entire world was judged?
How about this day of judgment upon the Northern tribes? Did he say he will come down from his place?
Micah 1:2 Hear, all you people; listen, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the LORD from his holy temple. 3 For, behold, the LORD comes forth out of his place, and will come down, and tread on the high places of the earth. 4 And the mountains shall be molten under him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place. 5 For the transgression of Jacob is all this, and for the sins of the house of Israel. What is the transgression of Jacob? is it not Samaria? and what are the high places of Judah? are they not Jerusalem? 6 Therefore I will make Samaria as an heap of the field, and as plantings of a vineyard: and I will pour down the stones thereof into the valley, and I will discover the foundations thereof. 7 And all the graven images thereof shall be beaten to pieces, and all the hires thereof shall be burned with the fire, and all the idols thereof will I lay desolate: for she gathered it of the hire of an harlot, and they shall return to the hire of an harlot. 8 Therefore I will wail and howl, I will go stripped and naked: I will make a wailing like the dragons, and mourning as the owls. 9 For her wound is incurable; for it is come to Judah; he is come to the gate of my people, even to Jerusalem. AKJV
Like I already said. There are a minimum of three separate bodies of prophecy in the NT about the coming of the Lord, yes physically, to judge three different groups of people in three different centuries. The false teaching my friend is the one that does not appear in the NT and that is the word second in front of the word coming. The word Greek word for second does not appear anywhere in the same sentence with the word coming. Its throwing everyone off the trail of truth and renders Bible prophecy un-understandable.

This is the first few paragraphs from my article The Coming Or The Day Of The Lord
First lets look at John 21:18. (Jesus speaking to Peter) Truly, Truly, I say to you, When you were young, you dressed yourself, and walked where ever you desired: but when your old, you will stretch forth your hands, and another will dress you, and carry you where you do not want. 19. This he spoke, signifying by what death he (Peter) should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he said to him, Follow me. 20. Then Peter, turning around, seeing the disciple whom Jesus loved (John) following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, who is it that betrays you? 21. Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22. Jesus answers him, If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? Follow me. 23. Then this saying abroad went out among the brothers, that this disciple (John) should not die: yet Jesus did not say to him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?
Apparently the subject of the coming of the Lord must have been just as mysterious to the early church as it is to believers today. It can be seen that they held the same view as many believers today because they interpreted the coming of the Lord as being the end of the world. They thought the Apostle John would be caught away (raptured) and not experience death. It appears that John considered it necessary to point out their misunderstanding of scripture while writing his gospel. Recording that: Jesus did not say to him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? Now dear brothers and sisters. You are being presented with a dilemma. Either John's gospel has an error in it or your interpretation of the coming of the Lord is not correct. Jesus told Peter that John would remain until he comes. Yet if the coming of the Lord is the end of the world, Armageddon, the rapture or a time proceeding Jesus reigning physically from the city of Jerusalem, (a millennial reign). That would make this a false prophecy. John is dead, its two thousand years later and Jesus still hasn't come. Well, he hasn't come in the way pop culture end time teachings have him come anyway.

I agree the Gospel keeps advancing according to God's Will and Purpose. However, things are not getting better around us. As we advance as a human race the secular world demonstrates more coldness of heart. Wars are more destructive, refugees more numerous and persecution of Christians at the highest proportionally since the Roman persecutions. Just not here, for the most part, in the West or developed world.

The prophecies are not comparing the 1950's, (that were not so great anyway) to the year 2017. They are not comparing Victorian age England to the the 1940's. They are comparing the ancient world's perpetual despotism and state imposed idolatry to the world that would come after the fourth of the four empires ended. It's comparing the age when the most powerful men in the world made policy based on the the way animal or human entrails scattered on the ground to the modern age. It's comparing an average life span of 40 years to 80 years and climbing. Its comparing a child mortality rate of 50% to under 5%. Its comparing 7000 years of human history when the word of the king was law and life and death was on his tongue to a world with laws that all must yield to. More than anything else. Its comparing 7 millennia where 99.9% of all people had no control of their own destiny or the destiny of their nations to a world where nations and people do have control of their destinies. They may choose unwisely but at least they get to choose. Besides your thoughts that the world is worse now than it was even 50 years ago are way out in left field.

Could you point out the nations most influenced by the government of God? Could you explain what exactly an earthly government of God looks like. Thanks.

Good old USA Here is an article I wrote:
What Is The Government Of God?

 

[thesunisout]

No I believe the thousand years illustrates something but not a time period. I wont get into what I believe it represents here because not a single person I am talking to even acknowledges the big picture of Bible prophecy that the scripture has already interprited.
But let me put it this way. Chapters 20,21,22 of Revelation are not chronological. They are all happening at the same time. Chapter 19 is chronological. It happens before. It was the end of the age of the four gentile empires that occured when what had been the capitol of the Roman Empire since 333 ad fell to the Turks. Constantinople 1453ad.

So we are over 500 years into the age of promise that Revelation 20,21,22 and a hundred other chapters of prophecy talk about.

You ask about WWIII? That would be another fulfillment of what the prophecy of Gog and Magog illustrate. People’s and nations who seek to stop the growth of the influence of the government of God in the earth. Seeking to conquer the lands where The Gospel and the Word have the most influence. I have faith in God’s Word though that just like the Nazis, the USSR, Napoleon, the Holy Roman Empire, the imperial Japanese. That the people’s most influenced by the Bible will come out on top. Which is why in both Ezekiel’s and John’s visions Gog and Magog are defeated in war. That is the major difference between the age of promise prophesied by Daniel and others. In the previous ages the bad guys ruled in perpetuity. Heck, outside of some short time periods in ancient Israel there were no good guys. From the time of the beginning of the age of the four gentile empires. The people of faith were defeated in war and subjugated to the wicked. All the way until that last Empire ended. Then it all began to change and slowly but surely. With ups and downs. That change has been spreading.

If we are already there, what happened to the Antichrist, the false prophet, the whole world taking the mark and worshiping the beast, the two witnesses slain and the whole world giving each other gifts to mark the occasion, the plagues and wrath of God, the coming of the Lord and the rapture of His church?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

If we are already there, what happened to the Antichrist, the false prophet, the whole world taking the mark and worshiping the beast, the two witnesses slain and the whole world giving each other gifts to mark the occasion, the plagues and wrath of God, the coming of the Lord and the rapture of His church?

Indeed

 

[thesunisout]

Indeed

So you don't believe the bible predicts those events?

 

[Daniel Martinovich]

So you don't believe the bible predicts those events?

I believe exactly what the Bible itself teaches about all that. I do not believe your dogma about them. I just posted this one on my facebook page a few days ago.

So you don't believe the bible predicts those events?

i believe what the Bible as a whole teaches about those things. I don’t believe your dogma about them though.
I just posted this on my Facebook page last week.


What is Anti Christ?
11/19/2017
Anti Christ of the Bible is not a person but a spirit. Nor will this spirit ever manifest itself in a single individual as championed by pop culture end time teachings. The Apostle John was purposely kept alive to witness the fulfillment of the end time prophecies of the first covenant age. The other apostles were not. In addition to all the Old Testament prophecy he also was given more prophecy about the age of the four gentile empires which they were in the middle of. The end of that age was yet 1400 years off.
John 21:18. (Jesus speaking to Peter) Truly, Truly, I say to you, When you were young, you dressed yourself, and walked where ever you desired: but when your old, you will stretch forth your hands, and another will dress you, and carry you where you do not want. 19. This he spoke, signifying by what death he (Peter) should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he said to him, Follow me. 20. Then Peter, turning around, seeing the disciple whom Jesus loved (John)following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, who is it that betrays you? 21. Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22. Jesus answers him, If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? Follow me. 23. Then this saying abroad went out among the brothers, that this disciple (John) should not die: yet Jesus did not say to him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?
As many would today, everyone back then thought that this meant John would not taste of physical death but be raptured. John saw fit to correct this thinking in writing his gospel by repeating that he would remain alive until Jesus came. That was when Jerusalem was destroyed, marking the end of the first covenant age. Another thing John who had hindsight in regards to the prophecies they were hearing that the others did not was regarding Anti Christ. The churches like so many today pretty much thought this was a prophecy of an individual. John lived to see that these illustrative prophecies were not referring to a single individual but rather a prophecy of the rise of demonically inspired people who had rejected the witness of God and the Gospel they heard.
1st John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.....22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son....4:3 And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, which you have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Someone might astutely ask then. Why did Paul connect Anti Christ to a political figure then? Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposes and exaltes himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Thereason for this is simple. The primary way the spirit if Anti Christ manifests itself or is seen is politically. The worlds or peoples selfish interests are not that greatly interfered with over what their neighbor might believe or their personal values. Therefore you will see some but not a whole lot of opposition to a Christian individual, or the way they live. However real Christianity cannot be confined within the home or the four walls of a church. Not only does Bible based Christianity create more Christians but by its very nature it influences the culture and changes people's politics. Now we are talking extreme interference in the selfish interest of the world and individuals. People who want to use human government to rule the world rather than the Biblical principle of human government being the servant of people for good are threatened by Bible based Christianity. Their ambitions, their love of unjust gain, the very reason for their existence is put at risk by knowledge and morality. This is why the spirit of Anti Christ is primarily seen in politics and real persecution comes primarily from the political realm. Hence the Apostle Paul's teaching about Anti Christ being connected to politics.
Hopefully I'll find the time and ambition to share some ways in which the spirit of Anti Christ is manifesting itself in the USA's politics along with its goals in the next few months. An understanding of this type of stuff should be part of a churches discipleshiping. I am afraid one of the reasons its not is to try to avoid persecution by staying out of politics. Unfortunately the wicked know the dangers of Bible based Christianity to their plans and purposes even if Christians don't. They will not leave them alone no matter how benign churches seek to make themselves. So might as well let God do his thing through you politically as well as every other area of life.

 

[God bless Joshua]

Is what Ezekiel 47:12 shows us is the "Eternal Kingdom" as the river of life flows from the sanctuary, the tree of life has leaves that won't die/fade "Eternal",

Jesus presence in Millennium would make it that way, He could resurrected the death Lazarus.

 

[thesunisout]

What is Anti Christ?
11/19/2017
Anti Christ of the Bible is not a person but a spirit. Nor will this spirit ever manifest itself in a single individual as championed by pop culture end time teachings.
The Apostle John was purposely kept alive to witness the fulfillment of the end time prophecies of the first covenant age. The other apostles were not. In addition to all the Old Testament prophecy he also was given more prophecy about the age of the four gentile empires which they were in the middle of. The end of that age was yet 1400 years off.
John 21:18. (Jesus speaking to Peter) Truly, Truly, I say to you, When you were young, you dressed yourself, and walked where ever you desired: but when your old, you will stretch forth your hands, and another will dress you, and carry you where you do not want. 19. This he spoke, signifying by what death he (Peter) should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he said to him, Follow me. 20. Then Peter, turning around, seeing the disciple whom Jesus loved (John)following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, who is it that betrays you? 21. Peter seeing him said to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 22. Jesus answers him, If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? Follow me. 23. Then this saying abroad went out among the brothers, that this disciple (John) should not die: yet Jesus did not say to him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?
As many would today, everyone back then thought that this meant John would not taste of physical death but be raptured. John saw fit to correct this thinking in writing his gospel by repeating that he would remain alive until Jesus came.That was when Jerusalem was destroyed, marking the end of the first covenant age.

Okay, now I think I understand some of your theology. You are saying that the destruction of Jerusalem is when the Lord came back. You are partly basing this on the idea that John remained alive until Jesus returned. Yet, the text doesn't say that; in fact it implies the opposite.

"yet Jesus did not say to him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you?"

The saying that went out among the brethren was a faulty interpretation of what Jesus said, but that doesn't validate the idea that John will remain alive until Jesus came back either. Jesus didn't say that or even imply that; what He directly said is that it was none of Peters business what He did with John. He only used the idea of John remaining alive until He returned as an example, but there is no way to prove that is what actually happened.

And there is also no proof that John died when Jerusalem was destroyed. That is simply a theory you have without any hard facts. You make that leap because it is necessary for your theology.

So when you kick that leg out from under the table you really have nothing solid to base your idea that the destruction of Jerusalem was the fulfillment of Matthew 24 and the other prophecies of His return. There are so many things that clearly did not happen in AD70, such as this:

Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other

Another thing John who had hindsight in regards to the prophecies they were hearing that the others did not was regarding Anti Christ. The churches like so many today pretty much thought this was a prophecy of an individual. John lived to see that these illustrative prophecies were not referring to a single individual but rather a prophecy of the rise of demonically inspired people who had rejected the witness of God and the Gospel they heard.

1st John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.....22 Who is a liar but he that denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denies the Father and the Son....4:3 And every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, which you have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

The problem with the verses you quoted is that they don't support your interpretation that there isn't going to be a person known as the Antichrist. It actually supports that idea in verse 18. The text is actually saying that not only will there be an Antichrist, there are many others that are like him, and this isn't surprising because Jesus warned us of false christs.

The spirit of the Antichrist being in the world does not preclude a literal Antichrist either. The essence of the Antichrist is to replace Jesus as the Messiah, so his spirit working in the world leads people to deny Christ. So this is really foreshadowing what the final Antichrist, if you will, is coming to do. There is simply no proof from the text to support your interpretation.

Someone might astutely ask then. Why did Paul connect Anti Christ to a political figure then? Thessalonians 2: 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposes and exaltes himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Thereason for this is simple. The primary way the spirit if Anti Christ manifests itself or is seen is politically. The worlds or peoples selfish interests are not that greatly interfered with over what their neighbor might believe or their personal values. Therefore you will see some but not a whole lot of opposition to a Christian individual, or the way they live. However real Christianity cannot be confined within the home or the four walls of a church. Not only does Bible based Christianity create more Christians but by its very nature it influences the culture and changes people's politics. Now we are talking extreme interference in the selfish interest of the world and individuals. People who want to use human government to rule the world rather than the Biblical principle of human government being the servant of people for good are threatened by Bible based Christianity. Their ambitions, their love of unjust gain, the very reason for their existence is put at risk by knowledge and morality. This is why the spirit of Anti Christ is primarily seen in politics and real persecution comes primarily from the political realm. Hence the Apostle Paul's teaching about Anti Christ being connected to politics

But this is all contingent on your interpretation of 1 John, and we've already seen that you aren't on solid ground there. Look at all of the speculation you have in this paragraph; it's based mostly on your ideas. Without the spirit of the antichrist replacing the person of the Antichrist, it all falls completely apart. That should tell you something, friend.

Hopefully I'll find the time and ambition to share some ways in which the spirit of Anti Christ is manifesting itself in the USA's politics along with its goals in the next few months. An understanding of this type of stuff should be part of a churches discipleshiping. I am afraid one of the reasons its not is to try to avoid persecution by staying out of politics. Unfortunately the wicked know the dangers of Bible based Christianity to their plans and purposes even if Christians don't. They will not leave them alone no matter how benign churches seek to make themselves. So might as well let God do his thing through you politically as well as every other area of life.

We aren't going to build a utopia here. Satan isn't bound up somewhere, he is more active than he has ever been. As the puzzle pieces continue to move into place, we will see the total fulfillment of Matthew 24, perhaps in our day. The signs are everywhere that we are hurtling towards the great tribulation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus presence in Millennium would make it that way, He could resurrected the death Lazarus.

The fact is, there will be no future 1000 year millennial kingdom on this earth, where Jesus hangs out with mortal humans.

Jesus warned the believers against this teaching in Matthew 24:23-27

Don't be deceived

Truth7t7

 

[God bless Joshua]

The fact is, there will be no future 1000 year millennial kingdom on this earth,

Jesus will claim back this earth from the devil and rule in His Millennium, just for the BELIEVERS.

Rev 20:
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a THOUSAND years,

4 ..... and they lived and reigned with Christ a THOUSAND years.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

If you take a smile as a jest or insult, I won't give ya one.

Ezekiel 47:12 does have the river and tree of life present, and is the same "Eternal Kingdom" as seen in Revelation 22:1-5

Ezekiel 47:12, The tree of life has leaves that don't fade "Eternal", fruit not consumed "Eternal".

Has fruit every month, leaves for healing, exactly like Revelation 22:1-5

On both accounts the river of life is flowing, from the sanctuary/Throne.

Looks like were gonna disagree, God has me convinced of the "Eternal Kingdom" seen in both Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5

Jesus Christ Is Lord!

Truth7t7

The river in Ezekiel flows into the sea and in Revelation 21 we are told this
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
Ezekiel 47
1 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple; and there was water, flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east; the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east; and there was water, running out on the right side.
3 And when the man went out to the east with the line in his hand, he measured one thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the water came up to my ankles. 4 Again he measured one thousand and brought me through the waters; the water came up to my knees. Again he measured one thousand and brought me through; the water came up to my waist. 5 Again he measured one thousand, and it was a river that I could not cross; for the water was too deep, water in which one must swim, a river that could not be crossed. 6 He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen this?” Then he brought me and returned me to the bank of the river.
7 When I returned, there, along the bank of the river, were very many trees on one side and the other. 8 Then he said to me: “This water flows toward the eastern region, goes down into the valley, and enters the sea.

If you examine this portion of scripture in Ezekiel and do not isolate the river you will not be able to make the conclusion that this is the river in the New Jerusalem. In this chapter of Ezekiel you can list each item that is promised and see a much larger picture. If you see Zechariah 14 predicts in the day the LORD comes with all of his saints a new river will flow from the MT of Olives. It says it will flow year round. Ezekiel is seeing the day this river is formed and its waters begin to heal the earth. In Revelation we see the earth has taken a beating and the waters have turned to blood and most all life was killed off. These waters are healing this destruction. There is no sea in the new heaven and earth and if you look at some of the minor statements of Ezekiel 47 they have great specific meaning. There will be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters go there; for they will be healed, and everything will live wherever the river goes. 10 It shall be that fishermen will stand by it from En Gedi to En Eglaim; they will be places for spreading their nets. Their fish will be of the same kinds as the fish of the Great Sea, exceedingly many.

En Gedi is a historic place in the Bible and the great sea is part of the borders if Israel in fact the rest of the chapter in describing the borders of the 12 tribes of Israel with the great sea again a reference point.

 

[BABerean2]

Jesus will claim back this earth from the devil and rule in His Millennium, just for the BELIEVERS.

Rev 20:
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a THOUSAND years,

4 ..... and they lived and reigned with Christ a THOUSAND years.

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
We have Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19.

The "nations" and "wrath" and "the time of the judgment of the dead" are found in Revelation 11:18.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

In 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 we have Christ returning in "flaming fire".
The fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20, as well as the judgment of the dead.

.

 

[Truth7t7]

The river in Ezekiel flows into the sea and in Revelation 21 we are told this
Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
Ezekiel 47
1 Then he brought me back to the door of the temple; and there was water, flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east, for the front of the temple faced east; the water was flowing from under the right side of the temple, south of the altar. 2 He brought me out by way of the north gate, and led me around on the outside to the outer gateway that faces east; and there was water, running out on the right side.
3 And when the man went out to the east with the line in his hand, he measured one thousand cubits, and he brought me through the waters; the water came up to my ankles. 4 Again he measured one thousand and brought me through the waters; the water came up to my knees. Again he measured one thousand and brought me through; the water came up to my waist. 5 Again he measured one thousand, and it was a river that I could not cross; for the water was too deep, water in which one must swim, a river that could not be crossed. 6 He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen this?” Then he brought me and returned me to the bank of the river.
7 When I returned, there, along the bank of the river, were very many trees on one side and the other. 8 Then he said to me: “This water flows toward the eastern region, goes down into the valley, and enters the sea.

If you examine this portion of scripture in Ezekiel and do not isolate the river you will not be able to make the conclusion that this is the river in the New Jerusalem. In this chapter of Ezekiel you can list each item that is promised and see a much larger picture. If you see Zechariah 14 predicts in the day the LORD comes with all of his saints a new river will flow from the MT of Olives. It says it will flow year round. Ezekiel is seeing the day this river is formed and its waters begin to heal the earth. In Revelation we see the earth has taken a beating and the waters have turned to blood and most all life was killed off. These waters are healing this destruction. There is no sea in the new heaven and earth and if you look at some of the minor statements of Ezekiel 47 they have great specific meaning. There will be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters go there; for they will be healed, and everything will live wherever the river goes. 10 It shall be that fishermen will stand by it from En Gedi to En Eglaim; they will be places for spreading their nets. Their fish will be of the same kinds as the fish of the Great Sea, exceedingly many.

En Gedi is a historic place in the Bible and the great sea is part of the borders if Israel in fact the rest of the chapter in describing the borders of the 12 tribes of Israel with the great sea again a reference point.

In Revelation 21:1 the word "Sea" represents masses of "People". When you read Revelation 13:1 the beast rises out of the "Sea" masses of "People" he's not a frogman, or the creature of the black lagoon

Ezekiel 47:12 is the "Eternal Kingdom" also seen in Revelation 22:1-5, the river of life is present flowing fro. the sanctuary/throne, the tree of life is present, leave does not wither/fade "Eternal", the fruit does not fail "Eternal"
both accounts ha e fruit bearing every month, and the leaves are for healing, "The Eternal Tree Of Life"

Zechariah 14 is the Eternal Kingdom" also, verses 1-4 the final battle of Armageddon, the second advent.
verses 6-7 eternal light
verse 8 the river of life "living waters" flowing from the sanctuary.
cerse 12 the last day judgment of the Lord by fire, also seen in Revelation 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10, Luke 17:29-30

There ya have it, Three accounts of the "Eternal Kingdom"

There will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jesus hangs out with moetal humans.

Jesus warned the believer against this teaching in Matthew 23:23-27

Don't Be Deceived

Truth7t7

 

[thesunisout]

Jesus will claim back this earth from the devil and rule in His Millennium, just for the BELIEVERS.

Rev 20:
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a THOUSAND years,

4 ..... and they lived and reigned with Christ a THOUSAND years.

There is a lot there is a lot of picking and choosing in this thread about what someone will take literally and what somebody will turn into allegory.

My view is this: since Jesus literally fulfilled the scriptures concerning His first coming then that gives us a standard for how to interpret the scriptures concerning His second coming.

I could imagine somebody turning the scripture that predicted he would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey into allegory. They would say oh this just indicates His humility. And indeed it does but He also literally fulfilled it and rode into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey. So when people attempt to allegorize His second coming I think we have to go by the standard that Jesus set which is literal fulfillment of prophecy concerning Himself.

Every eye WILL see him and there will be no mistaking or arguing about whether He returned or not. When Jesus comes back Everything Will Change

 

[Biblewriter]

There is a lot there is a lot of picking and choosing in this thread about what someone will take literally and what somebody will turn into allegory.

My view is this: since Jesus literally fulfilled the scriptures concerning His first coming then that gives us a standard for how to interpret the scriptures concerning His second coming.

I could imagine somebody turning the scripture that predicted he would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey into allegory. They would say oh this just indicates His humility. And indeed it does but He also literally fulfilled it and rode into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey. So when people attempt to allegorize His second coming I think we have to go by the standard that Jesus set which is literal fulfillment of prophecy concerning Himself.

Every eye WILL see him and there will be no mistaking or arguing about whether He returned or not. When Jesus comes back Everything Will Change

In the fifth century the famous Church writer Jerome, said:
"We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

So we see that, at least up to the fifth century, every writer that Jerome considered as legitimitely one of the "commentators of the Christian church," took these things literally.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

In Revelation 21:1 the word "Sea" represents masses of "People". When you read Revelation 13:1 the beast rises out of the "Sea" masses of "People" he's not a frogman, or the creature of the black lagoon

Ezekiel 47:12 is the "Eternal Kingdom" also seen in Revelation 22:1-5, the river of life is present flowing fro. the sanctuary/throne, the tree of life is present, leave does not wither/fade "Eternal", the fruit does not fail "Eternal"
both accounts ha e fruit bearing every month, and the leaves are for healing, "The Eternal Tree Of Life"

Zechariah 14 is the Eternal Kingdom" also, verses 1-4 the final battle of Armageddon, the second advent.
verses 6-7 eternal light
verse 8 the river of life "living waters" flowing from the sanctuary.
cerse 12 the last day judgment of the Lord by fire, also seen in Revelation 20:9, 2 Peter 3:10, Luke 17:29-30

There ya have it, Three accounts of the "Eternal Kingdom"

There will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth, where Jesus hangs out with moetal humans.

Jesus warned the believer against this teaching in Matthew 23:23-27

Don't Be Deceived

Truth7t7

Hi at least we agree Zechariah 14 is the 2nd coming.
The term sea does in some cases mean the political world but when it is used as a border and landmark it is just that and perhaps the no more sea in Rev is speaking like you say that would not change the idea expressed in Ezekiel that these are borders. In En Gedi in the New Jerusalem? Why would their be salt wastes. In Zechariah 14 it says the LORD is king over all the

The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
We have Christ returning in Revelation 16:15-16 and also in chapter 19.

The "nations" and "wrath" and "the time of the judgment of the dead" are found in Revelation 11:18.
You cannot have a judgment of the dead without a resurrection of the dead described by Christ in John 5:27-30.

In 2 Thessalonians chapter 1 we have Christ returning in "flaming fire".
The fire comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20, as well as the judgment of the dead.

.

In John 5 we see those who hear His voice will live and then we see all the dead judged together at once. You conclude that there is only one Resurrection. When we get to the key chapter of Rev 20 that is a chronological chapter we see this distinction clearly stating that the dead are raised 1000 years apart.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[fn] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

For just a second try to see it through the lens the 1000 years means 1000 years and why would God use the time a thousand years 5 times and set the things that happen at the beginning and end of this span specifically unless he really meant it? Then when you see the LORD is king over all the earth in Zech 14 you know it is Jesus ruling with these saints. He has judged the earth and took his vengeance he will separate the sheep from the goats. At the and of this span Satan is loosed and temps once more. and then he is put down where the beast and false prophet already are. There are hundreds of unfulfilled prophecy about the kingdom age that you are missing the joy off seeing this hope and future for Israel and the world. Why would God in Zech 14 require the nations to keep the feast of tabernacles under penalty of drought in the New Jerusalem?

Jesus was promised to sit on the throne of David and it is not a heavenly throne.

I have laid out the rules the Bible says to interpret prophecy and that is the prophet must be 100% right and there can be no private interpretation. Rev says not to take away from the book and a straight forward reading of chapter 20 if you asked a 3rd grader to read then tested them with these questions How long is Satan bound? A. 1000 years
When is he released? A. after the 1000 years is over.
How long do those beheaded get to reign with the Lord? A. 1000 years.
When are the rest of the dead raised? A. when the 1000 years is over.

you are maintaining that this basic understanding is not what this text is saying and it contradicts your view of one judgment and one Resurrection. In my view intentionally or not you are taking away from the clear understanding of the text; not good.


If you look through this lens you don't have to spritualize many other texts. The key to seeing this is understanding God will save Israel and make them his inheritance. There is one covenant for salvation for Israel and the Gentiles. But the plot of the whole of the book is God is long suffering and Holy and just and God alone predicts the future and God will get the glory for turning this people who have been obstinate and stiff necked into a jewel in the earth. Like Hosea said in Ch 3
For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days.

Yes David will be raised and in the latter days. you see this is all linked to the return of the sacrifice which has not been done since 70AD. The sacrifice is the key element for the midpoint of the 7 year tribulation. The temple institute has replicated everything necessary to resume these sacrifices. The return of the sacrifice is linked with the return of the kingdom. In Acts 1. Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, “Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 And He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.

In Luke 1 29 But when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and considered what manner of greeting this was. 30 Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS. 32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. 33 And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.”

Isaiah 9
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

In Zechariah 14 we see Jesus coming back as acts implies to restore the kingdom and to take the throne of David as the angel Gabriel and Isaiah both predict. Dan 2 and 7 describes this transfer of authority at the 2nd coming too. Nebuchadnezzar had a dream and in it he saw, You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

Daniel interprets this.
And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. 45 Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened.
11 “I watched then because of the sound of the pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.
13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

If you look at the key verse in Dan 7 your position that the 2nd coming is the day of judgment and the new Jerusalem again fails. Verse 11 matches Rev 20 saying the beast with the pompous word is destroyed and given to the fire yet the rest of the beasts have their dominion taken away yet their lives are prolonged for a season and a time. With the literal view of the chronology of chapter 20 I see oh yes this is when Satan is bound for 1000 years and after it is over he is cast into the flames where the antichrist and false prophet have already been for 1000 years.

Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven is more than a prayer it is a destiny.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

There is a lot there is a lot of picking and choosing in this thread about what someone will take literally and what somebody will turn into allegory.

My view is this: since Jesus literally fulfilled the scriptures concerning His first coming then that gives us a standard for how to interpret the scriptures concerning His second coming.

I could imagine somebody turning the scripture that predicted he would ride into Jerusalem on a donkey into allegory. They would say oh this just indicates His humility. And indeed it does but He also literally fulfilled it and rode into Jerusalem on the back of a donkey. So when people attempt to allegorize His second coming I think we have to go by the standard that Jesus set which is literal fulfillment of prophecy concerning Himself.

Every eye WILL see him and there will be no mistaking or arguing about whether He returned or not. When Jesus comes back Everything Will Change

Great post this is another little nugget on Christ coming in on the donkey as by the mouth of two witnesses it shall be established. in Gen 49 when Jacob blessed Judah he said this
The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
11 Binding his donkey to the vine,
And his donkey’s colt to the choice vine,
He washed his garments in wine,

Amazing Jesus is the choice vine on the young colt of a donkey coming in on palm Sun and then we see the 2nd coming having tread the wine press of His wrath where all of garments are washed in wine.

 

[thesunisout]

Great post this is another little nugget on Christ coming in on the donkey as by the mouth of two witnesses it shall be established. in Gen 49 when Jacob blessed Judah he said this
The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
11 Binding his donkey to the vine,
And his donkey’s colt to the choice vine,
He washed his garments in wine,

Amazing Jesus is the choice vine on the young colt of a donkey coming in on palm Sun and then we see the 2nd coming having tread the wine press of His wrath where all of garments are washed in wine.

Wow that is an awesome scripture. I've read it before but never really understood it until now. it's amazing that it describes the first and second coming. in that sense it's like Isaiah 61

 

[SeventyOne]

At no point does it ever mention the New Jerusalem ever lands on Earth.