Why are so many people so bad?

[Freodin]

it has meaning in relation to our perceived right to tell God He cannot make things the way He did and define them the way He did.

Some people call that "conscience".
I know, I know, a hard concept for some automaton Christians to understand.

potato potawto

i believe others have pointed out God creating based upon his eternal and immutable nature

That would mean God does not allow God to define his own creation.

i'd say it "has the ability" or "has the function"

You would be wrong to say that. But you seemed a little bit challenged when it comes to "definitions", so I let it slide.

only if you don't allow God to define His own creation.

According to your "eternal and immutable nature" doctrine, God isn't allowed to do that.

aha! a calvinist!

No, just making a necessary conclusion. If "bad" does not ultimately derive from God, it has to derive from something else... and according to your reasoning, this something else would be what "has the right" to define it.
You want to have your cake and eat it too... but this doesn't work.

you must be on your knees when you beg the question

Either God can define his creation, or he cannot. If he can, based on nothing but himself, it is necessarily arbitrary. By definition, if you want.

submitting to the authority of God the Creator is bad....got it

we are called to rightly divide the Word of Truth.

And you fail, constantly. Doesn't sound like a very good system, if you ask me.

false.

If God says He does not lie than He has bound himself to that and he will not lie, which logically follows that he won't contradict himself. God says He's thrice Holy, therefore He binds Himself to not sin.

God isn't as arbitrary as you would like to imagine.

And "lie" and "contradiction" and "sin" is defined by... by...? God! Who is not bound to his creation. You really haven't thought that through, pal.

i'm not sure how you would come to such a odd conclusion. good and bad have to do with the commands of God and whether or not we obey them. we're all sinners doing things we "ought not". i don't see how this means we don't exist or didn't do the things we do.

I never said any of that. You should pay more attention to your opposite in a conversation and less to the voices in your head.

cool story bro

Thanks! Appreciation means a lot comming from a expert.

 

[Everybodyknows]

we're not discussing whether or not something is harmful. we're discussing whether or not something is right or wrong and why. consensus of opinion is not an objective determination of anything.

Things are right or wrong because they are beneficial/harmful. If you have been following the conversation you'll find that I'm arguing against an objective morality. Morality is a subjective consensus of opinion based on maximising social benefit.

 

[Freodin]

Things are right or wrong because they are beneficial/harmful. If you have been following the conversation you'll find that I'm arguing against an objective morality. Morality is a subjective consensus of opinion based on maximising social benefit.

See, this is the reason why you will never get to any agreement with him or people like him. In their view, morality is authority based. There is no explanation for morality, no reason behind it, no mechanism. All it takes is this one authority decreeing "this is good, that is bad".

This leads to all kinds of problem when dealing with a view of morality that is not authority based. They simply cannot understand it... and because they haven't a way to explain their own morality, they have to resort to authoritarian means themselves. Their morality is not taught, cannot be taught... it must be enforced.

And there is the problem with authority based morality systems in general. If the word of authority is all that defines "good" or "bad", they are lost when such a word is missing. Their authoritative book goes to the lengths of prohibiting boiling goats in their mothers milk... this is "bad"... but it never has any word about man brutally raping children... this is not bad enough, it seems.

 

[quatona]

so you have no basis to make any objective moral claim.

which means, if you see a man brutally raping a child and you say that its wrong, all you have done is expressed your own personal opinion.

Yes, so?

 

[quatona]

the creator being able to define their creation isn't opinion. it logically follows.

Previously it seemed you took issue with "might makes right".

 

[quatona]

so you have no basis to make any objective moral claim.

which means, if you see a man brutally raping a child and you say that its wrong, all you have done is expressed your own personal opinion.

Yes, now you may say that God has a different opinion on that, and that God (being the creator and all) has the right to define rape as good - but, frankly, I don´t care about non-human opinions when it comes to human affairs.

 

[quatona]

God is the creator of all things and is the only one who has the right to define what He created and determine how it is to function.

So your Christian answer to the thread question "Why are so many people so bad?" would be "Because God has defined them as bad - just because he can."

 

[Silmarien]

Things are right or wrong because they are beneficial/harmful. If you have been following the conversation you'll find that I'm arguing against an objective morality. Morality is a subjective consensus of opinion based on maximising social benefit.

Maximizing social benefit is a problematic way to measure things. To take a page out of The Brothers Karamazov, if paradise is built upon the suffering of a single child, is the price worth it? Do we really want to base concepts of good and evil on a capitalist model: maximizing profits and minimizing costs?

I'm all about virtue ethics--that morality is something to be lived and that a moral life is determined by what is psychologically and socially healthier for the individual, most strongly tied into the concept of living authentically rather than simply being carried along in a cloud of excuses. That's much easier said than done, of course, which would be my answer to the thread.

 

[Oseas]

Opinion.

Opinion? Well, this is also your opinion, no?

 

[Oseas]

"Defining" is also not an objective determination of anything.
What you describe is not "objective", but "authoritative". Accept that.
Christianity is an authoritarian moral system. There is nothing to determine "right or wrong" except "God said so". Even personal opinions and "consensus" among those who interprete what they call "God's word" becomes ultimately "God said so".
It is the worst moral system available to humans.

Fereodin in his post #170 wrote:

>>>Defining" is also not an objective determination of anything.<<<
With these words are not you also defining anything?

>>>What you describe is not "objective", but "authoritative". Accept that.<<<
You are confounding Authority X Power.

>>>Christianity is an authoritarian moral system. There is nothing to determine "right or wrong" except "God said so". <<<
The true Christianity is a much more than a powerful moral system. Between what God says about morality and you say, hum.... nevermind.

>>>Even personal opinions and "consensus" among those who interprete what they call "God's word" becomes ultimately "God said so".<<<
There is only One God, the Most High and Almighty God. Thus, after the true Christian has known God, or rather he is known of God, he walks with God and does and obey what God has said by His powerful Word. There is not, in whole Universe, word more powerful than the Word of God. Who knows Him has power to speak as He speaks. God is God of the gods.

>>>It is the worst moral system available to humans.<<<
By the contrary, 100%.

 

[bhsmte]

Opinion? Well, this is also your opinion, no?

Well, generally, if people make claims that are not supported with established facts, it is opinion. That applies to everyone.

 

[bhsmte]

This is a serious question. Let's pretend, for the sake of this thread, that there is no spiritual realm and there was no Fall. What reason do people give for the abundance of bad people? Thieves, liars, sexual predators, murderers, etc. It's rife, and it's non-stop. In the absence of a spiritual realm, why are so many people so bad?

What percentage of the population would you label as "bad"? And, what criteria would you use to determine whether they are bad?

 

[Oseas]

That would depend on the skill and powers of this assummed creator. I dont see any facts to establish this.

Of course you do not see, this problem is the result of your blindness in the matter.

 

[Oseas]

What percentage of the population would you label as "bad"? And, what criteria would you use to determine whether they are bad?

And, what criteria would you use to determine whether they are not bad?

 

[bhsmte]

And, what criteria would you use to determine whether they are not bad?

Fit in with society; don't break the law, treat people with respect, etc. etc.

 

[bhsmte]

Of course you do not see, this problem is the result of your blindness in the matter.

Blind to what? Demonstrate what I am blind to, with something other than your personal opinion.

 

[Oseas]

Christie insb, in her post 176, did write :
>>>we are made in the image of our Creator.<<<

This assertion needs a better explanation. First God made man of the dust of the earth, an earthly being, animal, whose breath is in his nostrils only.

The man made in the image of God is another creature. God is Spirit. God is the Word and vice-versa. God did not say: I will do man in my image and in my likeness, bu He said: Let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. What is the image of God, being Him Spirit or the Word? To made man in His image, the Most High and Almighty God needed first to show His image, like a mirror. How to do this? Who could be His image in flesh and blood? JESUS, only JESUS. The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and His glory was beheld in the person of JESUS, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. GOD had said: Let there be Light, so there was Light. JESUS said: I am the Light of the world: he that follows me shall not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.

Beyond the Most High and Almighty God, and JESUS, also there is the person of the Holy Spirit. About the person of the Holy Spirit, JESUS said unto His disciples: I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

What was exposed above shows us the why of the Most High and Almighty God had said: Let US made MAN in OUR image and in OUR Likeness. The secret of MAN made and created in the image and likeness of God is in to be born again (John3:6-8).
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knows us not, because it knew Him not.
Now are we, the true Christians, the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He appear, we will be like Him; for we will see Him as He is. And every man that has this hope in Him purifies himself, even as He is pure. Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And we know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abides in Him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen Him, neither known Him.

 

[Oseas]

So unless I agree with what he says "my spirit is trying to nullify what he said"? Is that what you think?

No, your spirit snakes according to self-interest and tries to prevail through your viewpoint, anyway.

 

[bhsmte]

No, your spirit snakes according to self-interest and tries to prevail through your viewpoint, anyway.

You must know him well, or you are a mind reader.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, your spirit snakes according to self-interest and tries to prevail through your viewpoint, anyway.

Oh what a relief! All this time I just figured I was having a rational discussion...and it's actually been my snaking spirit!

You're a really big help!

What about your weasely spirit though? The one that tries to weasel your viewpoint onto others?