Church of Sweden to formally stop referring to God as "he"

[hedrick]

It's worse. This is a 1994 article.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1994/november14/4td044.html

That article is mostly hidden. From what is visible, it simply points out that there is female imagery used in Scripture for Wisdom. That's not a challenge to the Trinity.

 

[Vicomte13]

The post is about God, they are not talking about Son, and Holy Spirit. I'm not talking about the Trinity, I'm talking about God, and God is a He.

The trinity is another topic.

Wait. Is God not the Trinity, and is the Trinity not God?

 

[redleghunter]

That article is mostly hidden. From what is visible, it simply points out that there is female imagery used in Scripture for Wisdom. That's not a challenge to the Trinity.

This one is from a woman author same site 13 years later.

The Goddess Unmasked

 

[Vicomte13]

That's what is vexing. The NABRE did not go down that road. Only the local liturgy.

When I went back to the same Roman Catholic church in 2014 for a friend's funeral mass, they went back to the "In Him, through Him" instead of the aforementioned "In God through God."

Where the NIV and NABRE did opt for gender neutral language they did not when referring to God.

For example,

John 16: NABRE

12 “I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now. 13 But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth.He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. 14 He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. 15 Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.

John 16: NIV
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine position: That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

So it's interesting that even with all the discussions of making things more inclusive and neutral, both the NABRE and NIV still opted to keep the masculine when the neuter was available.

Well, that's correct. In the Catholic church, God is a "He", and all three persons of the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all "he's" in Latin, so it is entirely consistent. Of course, the Trinity - Trinitas in Latin - is a feminine noun, so the correct pronoun for the Trinity is "she".

This Trinity, she is composed of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three hes.

 

[buzuxi02]

I wish I can read that entire article on Wisdom. As an Eastern Orthodox Christian the Wisdom of God is the Second Person of the Trinity as taught in: 1 Corinthians 1:24 , Luke 7:34-35 & Isaiah 11:1-2, even the great Cathedral in Istanbul is named Hagia Sophia.

But this Wisdom of God describes the divine qualities and virtues of God it is not a concrete attribute. In the NT they are also qualities given to the faithful by the Spirit to become partakers of God: 1 Corinthians 2:6-14 & Matthew 23:37 )

 

[redleghunter]

Well, that's correct. In the Catholic church, God is a "He", and all three persons of the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all "he's" in Latin, so it is entirely consistent. Of course, the Trinity - Trinitas in Latin - is a feminine noun, so the correct pronoun for the Trinity is "she".

This Trinity, she is composed of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, three hes.

I was speaking of the John 16 translation. The NABRE uses the Koine Greek as do the translators of the NIV.

I believe it is because the masculine is inescapable in this passage which are the direct words of Jesus.

The Eastern Orthodox also come to the same conclusion in John 16:

12 I still have many things to tell you, but you cannot bear them now. 13However, when he, the Spirit of truth, has come, he will guide you into all truth because he will not speak from himself, but whatever he hears, he will speak. He will tell you of things that are yet to come. 14He will glorify me by taking from what is mine, and he will declare it to you. 15Everything the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take of [what is] mine and will declare it to you.

BASED ON THE OFFICIAL TEXT OF THE GREEK ORTHODOX CHURCH (PATRIARCHAL TEXT OF 1904)


What I meant by the masculine in the above passage is demanded is based on the Interlinear handling of ἐκεῖνος (ekeinos) in verses 13 and 16. The parsing key has this:


Part of Speech: Demonstrative Pronoun

Case: Nominative
Gender: Masculine
Number: Singular

John 16 Interlinear Bible

 

[Rion]

Not salty at all. Just not a fan of heterodoxy.

 

[Deadworm]

Can you explain this believe to us? Scripture please

'I am God and not a male (Hebew: "ish) (Hosea 11:9)." "Ish" is usually mistranslated as "man" or "human." But then we would expect the Hebrew "adam." "Ish" is the standard word for "male" as opposed to "female" ("ishah)."
So all the biblical masculine imagery for God is not meant to be taken literally.

And so, there is also plenty of feminine imagery for God both in the OT and in Jesus' sexually parallel parables. For example, God is portrayed as a woman in the parable of the leaven and in the parable of the lost coin. But it is one thing to use both genders for theological reflection about God; it quite another thing to defy Jesus' prescription for addressing God as "abba" (father in the Lord's Prayer model. I choose to follow Jesus' example in this respect.

 

[SolomonVII]

It brings to mind the question of if a tree falls in the forest, would anybody hear?
Does anyone in Sweden actually know that there is a Church of Sweden?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Ebeneezer in San Francisco, aka "herchurch" is not representative of the ELCA as a whole, and is considered by most as a significant embarrassment. What they are doing there isn't Lutheran, it is heresy and idolatry. I do not understand why it remains an accepted congregation under the ELCA umbrella.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[discipler7]

Church of Sweden to stop referring to God as 'he' or 'Lord'

.
The Church of Sweden (Swedish: Svenska kyrkan) is an Evangelical Lutheran national church in Sweden. A former state church, headquartered in Uppsala, with 6.1 million baptised members it is the largest Christian denomination in Sweden.(Wikipedia)

 

[SolomonVII]

Unless they say that our Lord is lying, Jesus Himself teaches us "Our Father" prayer. Father is masculine.

It is an important distinction to make, especially in modern times, when people believe that women can have penises, and that one's gender is defined by how one is feeling.
Mothers are not fathers, and fathers not mothers. Both may be parents, but the two are not interchangeable.

For two thousand years, or five thousand, and no doubt stretching into prehistory, entire archetypes of meaning to guide us have developed on what "Father" means, and what "Mother" means. These archetypes are essential for us to have the enculturation necessary for us to be able to deal with life with some modicum of success. Having narratives about fathers and mothers speaks to us at a very primal level, and ground us in a world-view rich with meaning which has evolved in our psychic structures to enable us to survive in the environments that we live in.

It is a nihilistic, evil intent of post-modernism that attempts to deconstruct the whole culture into a banal meaninglessness that leaves us with nothing to believe in, and no proper understanding of who we are and what our proper role is in the world.
Post-modernists are attempting to deconstruct a culture that stretches back into the depths of pre-history. It is an act of hate of a people who despise western culture and seek to destroy it.
This is an act of evil whose reach extends from the very depths of hell.

 

[Strong in Him]

Can you explain this believe to us? Scripture please

Genesis 1:27 God created mankind in his own image ....... male and female he created them.
John 4:24 God is Spirit . In Scripture the word for Holy Spirit is female

We call God "He" because he is personal. It would be wrong to say "it" and it would be clumsy to say he/she all the time. But God is Spirit.

 

[Strong in Him]

The post is about God, they are not talking about Son, and Holy Spirit. I'm not talking about the Trinity, I'm talking about God, and God is a He.

God IS a trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Son and Spirit are both divine.
It is far more serious to believe that the Son and Spirit are not God, than it is to state that God has a specific gender.

 

[discipler7]

Genesis 1:27 God created mankind in his own image ....... male and female he created them.
John 4:24 God is Spirit . In Scripture the word for Holy Spirit is female

We call God "He" because he is personal. It would be wrong to say "it" and it would be clumsy to say he/she all the time. But God is Spirit.

.
GENESIS.1: =
26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

GENESIS.2: =
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.
23 And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man.”
24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Please do not misinterpret the Word of God to suit your "doctrine" that God is also a She/female.

 

[Strong in Him]

.
Please do not misinterpret the Word of God to suit your "doctrine" that God is also a She/female.

Please don't accuse me of misinterpreting Scripture to suit my doctrine.

Genesis 1:27 says that God created people in his own image; male and female he created them. It doesn't say "God created man in his own male image, and then made women".
And John 4:24 says that God is Spirit.
A person is male if they have certain body parts. Jesus did; God doesn't.

 

[discipler7]

Genesis 1:27 says that God created people in his own image; male and female he created them.

.
No, GENESIS.1:27 does not say that God created people or male and female in His image. GENESIS.1:27 only says that God created the first man, Adam, in His image.
... GENESIS.2 says that God created the 1st woman, Eve, out of one of Adam's rib and likely in Adam's image. ...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

1CORINTHIANS.11: = 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1COR.14: =
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant

 

[FireDragon76]

Herchurch is not a typical ELCA church.

The language in our liturgy has tended to be gender inclusive for some time. However, we do not deny the historic language for the Trinity, it would be difficult to do so as it is in our confessions.

 

[AlexDTX]

Church of Sweden to stop referring to God as 'he' or 'Lord'


I mean, I don't believe God is necessarily physically male or female, but this seems like a bit much. What are your thoughts?

It means they do not know the Lord.

 

[Strong in Him]

.
No, GENESIS.1:27 does not say that God created people or male and female in His image. GENESIS.1:27 only says that God created the first man, Adam, in His image.

I'm assuming that you know Hebrew and that the Hebrew word here means only Males, or a specific man. I don't know Hebrew so I won't argue that point.
This means you're acknowledging that God created women, but not in his image. In whose image, then?

John 4:24 still says that God is SPIRIT.

.
1CORINTHIANS.11: = 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.

1COR.14: =
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own

This is a different subject. The role of women in church has nothing to do with God, who is Spirit, being of male gender.