It is sophistry that we Protestants "accept the canon of the Jews"

[JohnRabbit]

1. I agree they preserved the word.
2. I believe they ceased preserving some of the word
3. It then fell to the Church to preserve what of the word the Jews stopped preserving
4. The Church preserved the word but parts of the Church do not like parts of the word

you're doing it again in your "point" number 4!

remember, God is the ultimate determinant!

 

[SummaScriptura]

The philosophy of determinism does not jive with Scripture. I don't believe in determinism, Christian or otherwise.

 

[Yarddog]

We don't.

The Jews canonized their Bible before the Christians in order to exclude Jews from reading the works of the Apostles. And yet, Protestants include the works of the Apostles.

It is a dishonest position. We Protestants subscribe to a cut & paste canon but cannot admit to it.

It has been a while since I've looked into this but the Jews of the Holy Land began this during the 1st century but didn't conclude until around 50 years later. Of course the Jewish community looked quite a bit different by then.

I also remember reading where the Helenized Jews continued using the Septuagint which always contained the books which later became known as the deuterocanonicals.

 

[JohnRabbit]

The philosophy of determinism does not jive with Scripture. I don't believe in determinism, Christian or otherwise.

interesting, as i read dan 9:24.

 

[Servant232]

• 
  
  
  • The First occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse.

• 
  
  • Genesis 46:26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were Sixty-Six; - Hebrew Total 3858

46+26 = 72

• 
  
  • The 3858th vs. Numbers 7:7 Two wagons and Four oxen he gave unto the sons of Gershon, according to their service. 14

• 
  
  
  • Sixty-Six + Two + Four = 72

72+14 = 86

• 
  
  • The Second occurrence of the number 66 in a Verse.

• 
  
  • Leviticus 12:5 But if she bear a maid child, then she shall be unclean Two Weeks (14), as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying Sixty-Six days. - Hebrew Total 4493

• 
  
  • The 4493rd vs. Numbers 26:3 And Moses and Eleazar the priest spake with them in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying,

17+29 = 46

Add All the chapter and verse Numbers together 86+46 = 132

66+66 = 132

1

2

Here Is Wisdom​

 

[Ken Rank]

We don't.

The Jews canonized their Bible before the Christians in order to exclude Jews from reading the works of the Apostles. And yet, Protestants include the works of the Apostles.

It is a dishonest position. We Protestants subscribe to a cut & paste canon but cannot admit to it.

You are probably unaware of this... but the Christians came to the OT canon on their own and then compared it to the canon of the Jews and it was the same. To me that reveals God's hand on the matter.

 

[SummaScriptura]

You are probably unaware of this... but the Christians came to the OT canon on their own and then compared it to the canon of the Jews and it was the same. To me that reveals God's hand on the matter.

Oh? Can you reveal to us your source for this insight? Primary sources only please.

 

[SummaScriptura]

even though lots of letters and books seems honest and faithful and could be inspired by God, but I think the 66 books has a plan in the future. something is going to be revealed. someone discovered something else. some parts of the bible isn't perfectly divisible by certain numbers. some have remainders, numbers left over. like there is 2 left over here and 1 leftover there, 4 here and 3 there. there's a wave pattern. like 4, 3, 2, 1, 0, -1, -2, -3, -4, 3, 2....... can men write like that? I don't think so especially when writers are scattered and lived at different times. The 66 books has to be breathe by God. This is PROOF! this will make Roman religious sects topple over like it's gonna hurt.

You seem to have a magical understanding of the Bible. The Bible's power is its message, not a string of coincidences which "prove" its from God. You DO realize that Muslims play this sort of serendipity with the construction of the Quran, right? In their case they need to do that. We don't.

Click here for numerical miracles of the Quran

 

[SummaScriptura]

interesting, as i read dan 9:24.

So you read Daniel 9:24 about God determining something and since you are already a determinist you bring to the passage a determininst's perspective. People do that with all their previously held beliefs. It's called interpreting Scripture through your own cultural understanding. It is a kind of syncretism. We are all syncretists. The Bible student's challenge is to understand their own bias and then tp distance one's self from it as much as possible, before arriving at conclusions.

1. God determines stuff. (We agree).
2. God does not determine all stuff. (I assert).

Both are true.

 

[dqhall]

We don't.

The Jews canonized their Bible before the Christians in order to exclude Jews from reading the works of the Apostles. And yet, Protestants include the works of the Apostles.

It is a dishonest position. We Protestants subscribe to a cut & paste canon but cannot admit to it.

A Greek translation of the Old Testament was begun in Alexandria, Egypt during the third century BC. Seventy scholars worked on the preparation of the Septuagint. This was not done before Christ was born in Israel.

 

[Servant232]

• The Moon

The diameter of the Moon is 2159.14062 miles..

The verse of the scriptures consecutive by miles from Gen 1:1 that this number lands in, Is

• 1) The 2160th vs. Exo 23:15

• Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat Unleavened Bread Seven days, as I commanded thee, In the Time Appointed of the New Moon (chodesh) Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and None shall appear before Me empty.

The diameter of the Moon without the decimal by the 31102 verses in the Bible.

• 2) 215914062/31102 Remainder = 3978th vs. Num 9:12

• They shall leave None of it unto the Morning, nor break any bone of it: According to all the ordinances of 'The Passover' they shall keep it.

(1+2)

• 3) 2160+3978 ~ 6,138th vs. Jos 12:7 And these are the kings of the country which Joshua and the children of Israel smote on this side Jordan on the west, from Baalgad in the valley of Lebanon even unto the mount Halak, that goeth up to Seir; which Joshua gave unto the tribes of Israel for a possession According to their Divisions;

• (Chapter + Verse)

• 1) 23+15 = 38

• 2) 9+12 = 21

• 3) 12+7 = 19

• • (19*2) 38

~~~~~~~

• The Earth

The circumference of the Earth north to south through the poles is 24,859.82 miles, the verse number that this number lands in, is

• 1) The 24,860th vs. Mar 15:33 And when the sixth hour was come, there was darkness over the Whole Earth gē; until the ninth hour.

The circumference of the Earth without decimal.

• 2) 2485982/31102 Remainder = 28,924th vs. 2 Cor 7:7 And not by his coming only, but by the consolation wherewith he was comforted in you, when he told us your earnest desire, your Mourning, your fervent mind toward me; so that I rejoiced the More.

(1+2)

• 3) 24860+28924 = 53784/31102 Remainder = 22,682nd vs. Mic 7:17 They shall lick the dust like a serpent, they shall move out of their holes like worms of The Earth Erets: they shall be afraid of YAHUWAH Eloheynu, and shall fear because of thee.

• (Chapter+Verse)

• 1) 15+33 = 48

• 2) 7+7 = 14

• 3) 7+17 = 24

• • (24*2) 48

 

[Vicomte13]

You are both missing the point. Protestants, (we came much later, no?) claim as a pillar of their defense of Biblical canon that "we accept the canon of the Jews" as if the religious leaders of the Jews a generation after Christ, and after the destruction of the temple has any relevancy to the question at all. It is a defense designed to obfuscate. It is a falsehood in that sense.

What Protestants really ought to do is say "You know what? Martin Luther had an opinion about this. He wanted to take some books out of the New Testament too. He didn't succeed in persuading the others of his time to do that, but he did persuade them to take out certain books that were always in the Bible - according to the church we all came from (the Catholics and all the different Orthodoxies).

It's the 21st Century, we have better scholarship and a whole lot more ancient manuscripts, and we have people who can actually read Hebrew and Greek at far, far more expert levels than anybody could in the 1500s and 1600s.

So instead of being stubborn about an old tradition to the point of being stupid about it (like the Catholics are), let's be intelligent and scholarly and admit those books back to the canon, where they really belong."

What REALLY happens if you do that?

As long as you stick with the Catholic or Eastern Orthodox canon, essentially nothing happens. The Protestants are wrong that the texts are not Biblical, but they are essentially right that there really is not much in them that does anything but add some more history. There is one bit in Maccabbees about prayers for the dead that could cause a bit of problem, but then, Jesus said "Remarriage after divorce is adultery" and the Protestants get around THAT, so getting around some Old Testament prayer for the dead business really isn't hard.

Otherwise, there's just some history there and a couple more books of interesting and wise proverbs.

One of the key Protestant arguments is that the books don't add anything, and that's basically true - which means that adding them back where they belong doesn't really change anything, and it removes the dishonesty and strained arguments about keeping them out. Luther was wrong about removing James and Jude, and he was wrong about removing Wisdom and Sirach also. So what?

On the other hand, if the Protestants go past the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and add all of the books of the Oriental Orthodox canon, specifically the Ethiopian Orthodox, then the book of Enoch gets in there, and THAT actually changes theology regarding the origins of the world and man. But Luther didn't cast out that book. Ethiopia is a long (long...LONG...) way away from Wittenberg, and nobody in Europe could read Ge'ez to translate it even if they had the book in their hands.

The Protestants really COULD rationalize their religion better if they didn't stick stubbornly to their man made traditions about things, such as the canon.

 

[tulipbee]

You seem to have a magical understanding of the Bible. The Bible's power is its message, not a string of coincidences which "prove" its from God. You DO realize that Muslims play this sort of serendipity with the construction of the Quran, right? In their case they need to do that. We don't.

Click here for numerical miracles of the Quran

bible isn't magic.

 

[Servant232]

Here is Wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number... Rev 13:18

There are a total of 31,102 verses in the 1769 KJV 5th edition

The 16,257th vs. Psa 139:17 How precious also are Thy Thoughts unto me, O God! how Great is the Sum of them!

Verse number: 1+6+2+5+7 = 21

Chapter:Verse: 1+3+9+1+7 = 21

The Word 'Sum' occurs 21 times in 21 verses in the KJV < Link

~~~~~~~

• Gen 1:1 in Hebrew = 2701

• The factors for 2701 are 37*73

• The Hebrew Word for Wisdom is
  
  "Chokmah" = 73 Hebrew Standard value

• And 37 ordinal Hebrew ( the position of the letters in the alphabet)
  • ^

• Psalms 104:24 O YHWH, how manifold are Thy works! in Chokmah hast thou made them ALL: the earth is full of His Riches.

Proverbs 25:2
It is The Glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is
to search out a matter.
​

 

[SummaScriptura]

<snip>On the other hand, if the Protestants go past the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox and add all of the books of the Oriental Orthodox canon, specifically the Ethiopian Orthodox, then the book of Enoch gets in there, and THAT actually changes theology regarding the origins of the world and man.

How so? I read nothing in their Bible that changes that.

But Luther didn't cast out that book. Ethiopia is a long (long...LONG...) way away from Wittenberg, and nobody in Europe could read Ge'ez to translate it even if they had the book in their hands.<snip>

No. Augustine was instrumental in casting it out. And all the Magisterial reformers were slavishly devoted to Augustine. In fact, I would make the arguement that the Reformation of the 16th century was not a back-to-the-Bible movement, but rather a back-to-Augustine movement, and I'm no longer just talking about Biblical canon.

 

[SummaScriptura]

bible isn't magic.

No just your understanding. We do not rest our faith in the serendipity of numbers.

 

[SummaScriptura]

A Greek translation of the Old Testament was begun in Alexandria, Egypt during the third century BC. Seventy scholars worked on the preparation of the Septuagint. This was not done before Christ was born in Israel.

It was, or it wasn't? You just said both.

 

[GingerBeer]

It is sophistry that we Protestants "accept the canon of the Jews"
It isn't sophistry but it is a bad idea. Why use post Christian Jewish criteria to decide a Christian canon?

 

[Ken Rank]

You seem to have a magical understanding of the Bible. The Bible's power is its message, not a string of coincidences which "prove" its from God. You DO realize that Muslims play this sort of serendipity with the construction of the Quran, right? In their case they need to do that. We don't.

Click here for numerical miracles of the Quran

The book of Revelation tells us that there was a lamb slain from the foundation of the world. In looking at the language, that means that in some manner (probably in the mind of God) a sacrifice happened during the Creation period. This would indicate the need for a sacrifice, an understanding of God that before man was even created, he would fail. A second witness to this would be found in Genesis 1:14. If you place your cursor over the verse you'll see that the sun, moon, and stars were placed in the heavens for a number of reasons, one of which was for 'seasons.' That isn't a very good translation as the underlying Hebrew word is moedim, moed meaning "appointment" or "appointed time" but generally translated everywhere else as "Feast." Of course the "im" ending makes it plural, so Genesis 1:14 is saying the luminaries were place in the sky, in addition to other things, in order to determine when the Feasts would be. Since the Feasts, every one of them, point to various aspects of Messiah's work... then we have a second witness declaring that from the foundation of the world, God knew man would fail and He had already worked out a plan to bring them back to Him.

Knowing man would fail, God still created Adam which means even the creation of Adam was part of God's plan to bring man back to Him. Everything that happened from then on was part of God's redemptive plan... creating Eve, kicking both out of the garden... and every minor and major detail from then on through Sinai, Yeshua, through today.

My point... if God knew we would NEED more of less than the 66 books we have, He would have made that happen. We have what He wanted us to have, or He lacks control and the power to change things. Enoch is a fine addition to STUDY from, weigh in, consider... I use it like I do the Targumim, even to a lesser extend, the Talmud (the latter for cultural context, mainly).

As for proof about the formation of the canon... I will be by our library today and will grab the reference. Regarding use of phrases like "magical understanding of the bible," do you think that promotes good and healthy discussion between Christians... or do you think it might come off to others as snippy, perhaps arrogant and condescending? We are all just trying to grow in the Lord and our words should always edify and reflect the one we serve.. otherwise, we are profaning His name (character/reputation/authority).

Shalom.
Ken

 

[Hawkins]

We don't.

The Jews canonized their Bible before the Christians in order to exclude Jews from reading the works of the Apostles. And yet, Protestants include the works of the Apostles.

It is a dishonest position. We Protestants subscribe to a cut & paste canon but cannot admit to it.

OT is the Jew's history. It's their witnessing and testimonies. It's thus there Canon. The canonization is an on-going process ever since King Hezekiah. That's why 17 out of the 22 Pharisee enforced books are said to be with a Hezekiah seal. The canonization is under the strict supervision of the Sanhedrin (the Pharisees and scribes in it) all the times. The last 2 books were canonized around Jesus' time and in Aramaic as Aramaic became a more popular spoken language. Only the books inscribed by scribes appointed by the Sanhedrin can be considered legitimate copies of the Scripture, unlike the Septuagint which is completely uncontrolled. That's why the Jewish is a better Canon than the one made up from the Septuagint. The Septuagint included more books (i.e., the apocrypha) possibly for foreigners to have a better understanding of the Jewish religion.