annihilation and eternal torment are the same spirit

Noxot

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both remove the freedom of the soul and thus render it as a non-entity and this is against Gods plan since love requires freedom and freedom implies that change is always possible.
 

Anguspure

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both remove the freedom of the soul and thus render it as a non-entity and this is against Gods plan since love requires freedom and freedom implies that change is always possible.
What are the truly Biblical grounds for believing in unconditional immortality of the human soul? It is clear that the Bible teaches conditional immortality of those who continue to live in relationship to the Creator and sustainer of life.
Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of life and when it was barred from them they faced death. Those who reject Him, our Tree of Life, reject the source of life itself and once what they have been given has run its course there is no more.
 
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Der Alte

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both remove the freedom of the soul and thus render it as a non-entity and this is against Gods plan since love requires freedom and freedom implies that change is always possible.
John 9:3-5
(3) Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
(4) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(5) As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
 
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Neal of Zebulun

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I do remember eternal torment being mentioned in Revelation:

Revelation 14:
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:​

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

Revelation 20:
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

And that there are verses in Matthew which are related:

Matthew 8:
28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.​

29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Yahushua, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?​

Matthew 25:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Just some thoughts. Seek Yahweh!
 
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ClementofA

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If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?

"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."

"It is false, he maintained, to translate that phrase as "everlasting punishment," introducing into the New Testament the concept found in the Islamic Quran that God is going to torture the wicked forever."

"...non-Christians are punished forever for not recieving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation: The True "Good News" Gospel of the Bible

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

"The love of God is greater far
Than tongue or pen can ever tell
It goes beyond the highest star
And reaches to the lowest hell"

"The guilty pair, bowed down with care
God gave His Son to win
His erring child He reconciled
And pardoned from his sin

Could we with ink the ocean fill
And were the skies of parchment made
Were every stalk on earth a quill
And every man a scribe by trade

To write the love of God above
Would drain the ocean dry
Nor could the scroll contain the whole
Though stretched from sky to sky

Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah

O love of God, how rich and pure!
How measureless and strong!"
 
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ClementofA

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Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
 
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Der Alte

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Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Where does Heb 10:28 mention stoning? It doesn't, it says"dies without compassion". Nor does it say anything about what a person dying goes through in the process of dying. That is the choice, not the method of punishment. A punishment sorer than dying without compassion. Also what you think is "clear" is not stated therefore irrelevant. What you think the writer of Hebrews might/might not believe is also not stated therefore irrelevant
Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."
"Many" not all!
 
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ClementofA

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"Many" not all!

Both.

There is a parallel between the first half of v.19 & the latter half:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Rom.5:18:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. (NIV)
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (NASB)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (KJV)
 
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ClementofA

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Where does Heb 10:28 mention stoning? It doesn't, it says"dies without compassion". Nor does it say anything about what a person dying goes through in the process of dying. That is the choice, not the method of punishment. A punishment sorer than dying without compassion. Also what you think is "clear" is not stated therefore irrelevant. What you think the writer of Hebrews might/might not believe is also not stated therefore irrelevant

"Stonings were presumably the standard form of judicial execution in biblical times (Lev. 24:23; Num. 15:36; I Kings 21:13; II Chron. 24:21)."

Capital Punishment

But it makes no difference which method of death is used:

"The three methods of executing criminals found in the Bible are stoning, burning, and hanging."

Capital Punishment

Furthermore:

"Burning is mentioned as a pre-Sinaitic punishment (Gen. 38:24). As a mode of judicial execution it is prescribed in respect of two offenses only (Lev. 20:14, 21:9), but it seems to have been used to aggravate the punishment of stoning, the corpse being burned after execution (Josh. 7:25). It is also reported as a non-Jewish (Babylonian) punishment (Dan. 3:6). There is no biblical record to indicate whether and how judicial executions were ever carried out by burning."

Capital Punishment

Additionally, the book of Hebrews is to Hebrews, not non Jews. But read what this says:

"Hanging is reported in the Bible only as either a mode of execution of non-Jews who presumably acted in accordance with their own laws (e.g., Egyptians: Gen. 40:22; II Sam. 21:6–12: Philistines; and Persians: Esth. 7:9), or as a non-Jewish law imported to or to be applied in Israel (Ezra 6:11), or as an extra-legal or extra-judicial measure (Josh. 8:29)."

Capital Punishment


And all the interesting fluff aside, my argument remains as solid as ever. Substituting any means of death under the law of Moses for stoning makes no difference to its veracity:

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

>Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

Statement of Faith -- Please Read
 
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SBC

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both remove the freedom of the soul and thus render it as a non-entity and this is against Gods plan since love requires freedom and freedom implies that change is always possible.

annihilation and eternal torment are the same spirit
OP ^

God creates - Man, from dust (of His created earth)
God makes - souls for earthly creatures (man & animals)
God creates Life for man (blood) (and animals)
God imparts Life from Him - into souls; (man & animals) into spirits; (man & angels)

Man void his blood = dead man
Man void a soul in his body = dead man
Life void in a soul = dead soul

Man void of spiritual life in his spirit = dead man

Man WITH a (living or dead body ie his blood); and ALSO has a restored (ie saved) soul
AND forever life in his spirit (ie born again/via Gods Seed) = dead man ALIVE Forever, by and through the Lord.

both remove the freedom of the soul

Remove what "freedom" ? Souls were never "free" of their own accord.
Man is "free" to make decisions of his own (blood) life.
And man's life (blood), "all men", have a death appointment with God.
But while man is living his life (blood), he can choose to do as he pleases.

Gen 9 [4] But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood

Gen 9 [5] ...surely your blood of your lives will I require; ... I require the life of man.

John 1 [3] All things were made by him;

Ezek 18: [4] Behold, all souls are mine;

Isa 57 [16] ... the souls which I have made.

Man living (has a soul within him), and simply gets to make decisions of his own life (flesh/ ie blood), that WILL affect the living soul within the man.

Man bodily dead (blood dead), has no more authority over the living soul that departs his body. (All souls belong to God, regardless of WHERE they are. In or out of a created thing). Every living soul, departed out of a dead body, go to where God has prepared a place for it. Where it goes, is dependent upon, what decisions the man made, during his life (blood), that affected the living soul.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Der Alte

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"Stonings were presumably the standard form of judicial execution in biblical times (Lev. 24:23; Num. 15:36; I Kings 21:13; II Chron. 24:21)."
But it makes no difference which method of death is used:
"The three methods of executing criminals found in the Bible are stoning, burning, and hanging."
Furthermore:
"Burning is mentioned as a pre-Sinaitic punishment (Gen. 38:24). As a mode of judicial execution it is prescribed in respect of two offenses only (Lev. 20:14, 21:9), but it seems to have been used to aggravate the punishment of stoning, the corpse being burned after execution (Josh. 7:25). It is also reported as a non-Jewish (Babylonian) punishment (Dan. 3:6). There is no biblical record to indicate whether and how judicial executions were ever carried out by burning."
Additionally, the book of Hebrews is to Hebrews, not non Jews. But read what this says:
"Hanging is reported in the Bible only as either a mode of execution of non-Jews who presumably acted in accordance with their own laws (e.g., Egyptians: Gen. 40:22; II Sam. 21:6–12: Philistines; and Persians: Esth. 7:9), or as a non-Jewish law imported to or to be applied in Israel (Ezra 6:11), or as an extra-legal or extra-judicial measure (Josh. 8:29)."
And all the interesting fluff aside, my argument remains as solid as ever. Substituting any means of death under the law of Moses for stoning makes no difference to its veracity:
Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Stoning to death is not a very sore or longlasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.
Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Actually there are 4 methods of capital punishment listed in the OT. You might consider reading some credible sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia. Your repetitive copy/paste from tents-r-us is an irrelevant smokescreen. The writer of Hebrews says nothing about the degree, intensity or duration of pain that a person might experience while dying. Read it "a sorer punishment" than "died without mercy." A punishment worse than "dies without mercy" i.e. death.
 
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SBC

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Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed the wicked would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.
Where does Heb 10:28 mention stoning? It doesn't, it says"dies without compassion". Nor does it say anything about what a person dying goes through in the process of dying. That is the choice, not the method of punishment. A punishment sorer than dying without compassion. Also what you think is "clear" is not stated therefore irrelevant. What you think the writer of Hebrews might/might not believe is also not stated therefore irrelevant

"Many" not all!

Agree.

It IS the presumption of some - they have NO "ending" timeline. They are "teaching", the dead, VOID of their blood, ie their own "earthly" life, shall be included, to be forever WITH the Lord.

God "created" and "made" all of mankind. That was FINISHED, right after the Earth (ie man's habitat was created.

Gen 2
[31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Gen.2
[1] Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

God SAW "ALL" He had made.
God FINISHED "ALL" the hosts of the earth.

Ecc 1
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

There IS NOTHING NEW, that was NOT before.

Now what DOES MAN "SEE" (which God has ALWAYS SEEN) ?

Men SEE, babes, being REVEALED, born.
Men SEE, what WAS, being REVEALED, that their earthly natural EYES, "CAN SEE".
Men SEE, what WAS DONE, being REVEALED.

NOTHING new - MEN, (in their own blood life) lie, cheat, sneak, deceive, etc.
NOTHING new - MEN can NOT FOOL GOD.
NOTHING new - God has a RECORD of EVERYTHING a man DOES, "by" the SOUL, that is imparted into a man, and BELONGS TO GOD.

God KNOWS, the same as the man KNOWS, (what he does and does not do), (what he thinks, says; what he chooses to trust and believe, or not. etc.).

Men have liberty of choices, when alive in their own life (blood).
God has a WAY, (for a man alive in his own life (blood)), to learn about God, and pleasing to God, elect to trust and believe in God....or not.

Some people teach, MEN, "not alive" in their own life (blood), will be INCLUDED to be WITH God, even when ALIVE in their own life (blood), they made no such election.

I rather choose to Trust and Believe what God says -

Rev 20
[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Whosoever's names that do appear in the book of life - are whosoever OVERCAME the WORLD and the WICKED one of the WORLD ~ BECAUSE Gods Spirit was IN THEM, when they were bodily ALIVE in their own life (blood).

1 John 4
[4] Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Nothing whatsoever teaches Gods Spirit enters men DEAD in their own life VOID of their blood life.

God Bless,
SBC
 
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ClementofA

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Actually there are 4 methods of capital punishment listed in the OT. You might consider reading some credible sources such as the Jewish Encyclopedia.

I quoted from the same source you've quoted from. So pot kettle.
 
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Hieronymus

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Of course it's not "the same spirit".
ETC means keeping souls alive in order to be able to torture them for ever and ever, without purpose or outcome (so justice is never done).
Annihilation is stopping the existence of unsaved / unrepentant souls who do not want to live with God.
If you can't see the difference in "spirit" between those 2, i wonder what you can see...

I see your point though, both are not examples of forgiveness, i suppose..

I personally believe (and hope) many more will eventually be saved or "purified through the fire", and only the intentionally wicked and God hating will end up non existent (blotted out / not written in the Book of Life).
 
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DreamerOfTheHeart

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both remove the freedom of the soul and thus render it as a non-entity and this is against Gods plan since love requires freedom and freedom implies that change is always possible.

The nature of time and light is generally missing from the equation. That is, there is earth, the finite world, and then the infinite world. Anyone can experience the timelessness of the infinite, and they can do so entirely outside of time -- by very definition.

So, one can experience "eternal hell fire" for a moment and then be returned to time and the finite world, or even Heaven in this way.
 
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Noxot

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What are the truly Biblical grounds for believing in unconditional immortality of the human soul? It is clear that the Bible teaches conditional immortality of those who continue to live in relationship to the Creator and sustainer of life.
Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of life and when it was barred from them they faced death. Those who reject Him, our Tree of Life, reject the source of life itself and once what they have been given has run its course there is no more.

since you have freedom it means you make a perception about how God is. I came to different conclusions about the same words that you read.
 
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Noxot

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John 9:3-5
(3) Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
(4) I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(5) As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

when I read that what I see is the most fundamental reality of love which is far greater than the will of souls existing in this tiny layer of reality even though they are birthed out of this "nothing" that God made all things with.

if Jesus is not the light of our world then what we will see will be something that is uncharacteristic of God.
 
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Noxot

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Of course it's not "the same spirit".
ETC means keeping souls alive in order to be able to torture them for ever and ever, without purpose or outcome (so justice is never done).
Annihilation is stopping the existence of unsaved / unrepentant souls who do not want to live with God.
If you can't see the difference in "spirit" between those 2, i wonder what you can see...

I see your point though, both are not examples of forgiveness, i suppose..

I personally believe (and hope) many more will eventually be saved or "purified through the fire", and only the intentionally wicked and God hating will end up non existent (blotted out / not written in the Book of Life).

it's the same spirit because it rejects something very fundamental to Gods nature. it's different just as one branch of a dead tree is not the same as another branch from the same dead tree.
 
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Noxot

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The nature of time and light is generally missing from the equation. That is, there is earth, the finite world, and then the infinite world. Anyone can experience the timelessness of the infinite, and they can do so entirely outside of time -- by very definition.

So, one can experience "eternal hell fire" for a moment and then be returned to time and the finite world, or even Heaven in this way.

eternity seems to encompass all things in a perfect divine order and so the feeling of eternal hell would be Gods feeling over us if we were forever lost to him and is the reality we express when we have thought we have lost God. so all things are for Gods sake and thus for his peoples.

fundamentally all things are based in divine trinitarian love and thus the nature of the soul being united to God creates the illusion that everlasting torment could be and it would be if God willed it and since the soul is united to God the soul could will it and it would be... but our Father is greater than all and thus even if Christ be crucified our Father would raise us from the dead.
 
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