The Rapture - 2020?

[Riberra]

Hi Riberra,

When you say `we` I believe you are not discerning who the Lord is speaking to. In Matthew we read that He is talking to the people of Israel concerning their Nation`s future, while in 1 Thessalonians 4 we read that the Holy Spirit is speaking through the Apostle Paul to the Body of Christ. Two different groups there, with two specific purposes.

regards, Marilyn.

Both passage are about the COMING of Jesus IN THE CLOUDS in THE AIR.... thus Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 gives details about the same event happening UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS [1 Thessalonians 4:15] ....the elects gathered by the angels in [Matthew 24:31are the faithful believers .

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that WE that are ALIVE and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

 

[Marilyn C]

Both passage are about the COMING of Jesus IN THE CLOUDS in THE AIR.... thus Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 gives details about the same event happening UNTO THE COMING OF JESUS [1 Thessalonians 4:15] ....the elects gathered by the angels in [Matthew 24:31are the faithful believers .

1 Thessalonians 4:15
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that WE that are ALIVE and REMAIN UNTO THE COMING of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.

Hi Riberra,

Yes both are about Jesus coming in the clouds in the air, however we know we cannot base our doctrine on ONE scripture, we need to look at all the relevant scriptures pertaining to the topic.

You rightly brought up an important detail - `the elect.` Now we know from God`s word that He calls Israel His elect.

`For Jacob my servant`s sake and Israel my elect.` (Isa. 45: 4)

So we read that the Lord is talking to the people of Israel concerning their nation`s future and thus the Lord calls the ones from Israel, who will be saved through the tribulation, the elect. These are the ones that the people of the nations bring back to Jerusalem after being told by angels of the Lord`s return.

`Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all the nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to my holy mountain Jerusalem.` (Isa. 66: 20)

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Truth7t7]

Matthew 24:29-31 say that we will see Jesus COMING on the CLOUDS....1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. say that we will be caught up to meet Jesus in the CLOUDS UNTO HIS COMING......Both passage refers to Jesus COMING IN THE CLOUDS IN THE AIR....At THE SOUND OF A TRUMPET [The Trump of God AFTER the Tribulation //NOT the 7 TH Tribulation Trumpet ]]....ANNOUNCING THE GATHERING.


When Jesus will come again He will be in the AIR over Israel....for the battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-21...then after the Battle of Armageddon Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives Zechariah 14 KJV.

King James Version
Acts 1:11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven

Yes Matthew 24:29-31 states Jesus will appear, "They shall see the son of Man"

However when Jesus Christ appears it will be"Fire Judgment Time"!

2 peter 3:10-13, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Luke 17:29-30, Malachi 3:2, 1Corinthians 3:13

 

[Riberra]

Yes Matthew 24:29-31 states Jesus will appear, "They shall see the son of Man"

However when Jesus Chris appears it will be"Fire Judgment Time"!

2 peter 3:10-13, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Luke 17:29-30, Malachi 3:2, 1Corinthians 3:13

Revelation 19:11-21 through Revelation 20:4-6 tell us what will happen unto the Coming of Jesus....The Judgment by fire will happen AFTER the 1,000 years reign of Jesus on the Earth...The Day of the Lord will last 1,000 years....then Jesus will give the Kingdom to His Father...after the Great White Throne Judgment.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 19:11-21 through Revelation 20:4-6 tell us what will happen unto the Coming of Jesus....The Judgment by fire will happen AFTER the 1,000 years reign of Jesus on the Earth...The Day of the Lord will last 1,000 years....then Jesus will give the Kingdom to His Father...after the Great White Throne Judgment.

Your 100% Wrong says the scripture.

Jesus Christ will return in the "Final Judgment" "Eternal Kingdom" Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne, the judgment is set.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented.

Verse 40 the wicked are judged to the lake of fire.

Verse 46 we see the word "Eternal" as the wicked are judged to "Eternal Punishment" and the righteous enter "Eternal Life"

Don't run off to some other scriptures

Does the scripture say "Eternal Punishment" "Eternal Life"?

100% Yes, "The Final Judgment"!

Truth7t7

 

[Riberra]

Your 100% Wrong says the scripture.

Jesus Christ will return in the "Final Judgment" "Eternal Kingdom" Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne, the judgment is set.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented.

Verse 40 the wicked are judged to the lake of fire.

Verse 46 we see the word "Eternal" as the wicked are judged to "Eternal Punishment" and the righteous enter "Eternal Life"

Don't run off to some other scriptures

Does the scripture say "Eternal Punishment" "Eternal Life"?

100% Yes, "The Final Judgment"!

Truth7t7

Don't you find it [revealing] that Revelation 19:20 who is about the Coming of Jesus at the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 19:11-21...say that only the Beast and the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire when Jesus return...

The other people gathered at Armageddon will be slain by Jesus and the birds will eat their flesh... Revelation 19:21


Revelation 19:20-21
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought the signs in his sight, wherewith he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image: they two were cast alive into the lake of fire that burneth with brimstone:

21 and the rest were killed with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, [even the sword] which came forth out of his mouth: and all the birds were filled with their flesh.


Maybe you should take into consideration that the DAY of The Lord will be 1,000 years > as hinted by 2 Peter 3:8...and confirmed by Revelation 20:4-6

Then,after the 1,000 years ,the judgment by fire will come.

2 Peter 3:8
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:7-15
7 And when the thousand years are finished, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 and shall come forth to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to the war: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up over the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 ...
13 ...
14 ...
15 And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Marilyn C]

Your 100% Wrong says the scripture.

Jesus Christ will return in the "Final Judgment" "Eternal Kingdom" Matthew 25:31-46

Verses 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels, the nations are gathered before the throne, the judgment is set.

Verse 34 The eternal kingdom is presented.

Verse 40 the wicked are judged to the lake of fire.

Verse 46 we see the word "Eternal" as the wicked are judged to "Eternal Punishment" and the righteous enter "Eternal Life"

Don't run off to some other scriptures

Does the scripture say "Eternal Punishment" "Eternal Life"?

100% Yes, "The Final Judgment"!

Truth7t7

Hi Truth7t7,

Yes the scripture does say that the wicked will go into `eternal punishment.` However.....we know that we need to bring all the scriptures pertaining to the topic together & not just base our thoughts on one scripture.

Now it does NOT say WHEN they will go into eternal punishment. It is just saying that that is their punishment. There is a gap there.

Remember when Jesus read the scriptures from Isaiah and left the last sentence out -

`To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God.` (Isa. 61: 2)

See the gap there. When Jesus read that in the synagogue He did not read the last part of the sentence, why? because it was not time for it. So it is with other passages in God`s word, God moves on to the end & often does not fill in all the details at that point. That is why we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to the subject.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Truth7t7]

Hi Truth7t7,

Yes the scripture does say that the wicked will go into `eternal punishment.` However.....we know that we need to bring all the scriptures pertaining to the topic together & not just base our thoughts on one scripture.

Now it does NOT say WHEN they will go into eternal punishment. It is just saying that that is their punishment. There is a gap there.

Remember when Jesus read the scriptures from Isaiah and left the last sentence out -

`To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God.` (Isa. 61: 2)

See the gap there. When Jesus read that in the synagogue He did not read the last part of the sentence, why? because it was not time for it. So it is with other passages in God`s word, God moves on to the end & often does not fill in all the details at that point. That is why we need to gather all the scriptures pertaining to the subject.

regards, Marilyn.

There is no gap as you claim, in my opinion your denial of the very clear and simple text, to support your belief

Matthew 25:31-46 is the final judgment to eternal punishment and eternal life

verses 31-32 Jesus Returns with the angels, the nations are gathered for judgment.

verse 34 the eternal kingdom is presented

verse 40 the wicked judged to the final lake of fire

verse 46 we see the wicked "Eternal Punishment" the righteous enter the kingdom in verse 34, "Eternal Life"

Pretty Simple, shall we pretend like the word "Eternal" isnt seen in verse 46?

So the false teaching of a earthly millennial kingdom can take place?

 

[Riberra]

So the false teaching of a earthly millennial kingdom can take place?

You must understand that the FINAL JUDGMENT WILL HAPPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT AFTER THE 1,000 years REIGN OF JESUS...

Revelation 20:7-15

 

[Truth7t7]

You must understand that the FINAL JUDGMENT WILL HAPPEN AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT AFTER THE 1000 years REIGN OF JESUS...

Revelation 20:7-15

No you have to understand that Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same judgment that will take place at the return of Jesus Christ

The lake of fire seen in Matthew 25:40 is the same lake of fire seen in Revelation 20:14, the same judgment.

P.S. there will be no future 1000 year earthly millennial kingdom?

When Jesus Christ returns immediately after the tribulation, the resurrection, final judgment, eternal kingdom, takes place, all in the twinkling of an eye.

 

[Riberra]

No you have to understand that Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15 are the same judgment that will take place at the return of Jesus Christ

The lake of fire seen in Matthew 25:40 is the same lake of fire seen in

Revelation 20:11-15 will happen AFTER Revelation 20:4-6.

 

[Truth7t7]

Revelation 20:11-15 will happen AFTER Revelation 20:4-6.

I Agree!

Revelation 20:4-6 is taking place now in the Lords spiritual realm, everthing seen angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ are spiritual, not a literal 1000 years, no literal tim in the spiritual realm of the Lord. There is no earthly kingdom seen in Revelation 20:1-6 as you believe and teach

and yes this non-literal 1000 years will end at the second advent and final judgment seen in Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15

Jesus isn't going to return to this earth, and hang out with mortal humans, a deceptive teaching.

Jesus Christ warned the believer against such teachings in Matthew 24:23-27

There Ya Have It

 

[Riberra]

I Agree!

Revelation 20:4-6 is taking place now in the Lords spiritual realm, everthing seen angel, heaven, devil, satan, the souls, the dead, God, Christ are spiritual, not a literal 1000 years, no literal eaethly kingdom is seen as you believe

and yes this non-literal 1000 years will end at the second advent and final judgment seen in Matthew 25:31-46 & Revelation 20:11-15

There Ya Have It

You have definitively not read Revelation 20:4-6 this is talking about a PHYSICAL BODILY RESURRECTION [AND THEY LIVED -AND- reigned with Christ a thousand years....]
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

You have definitively not read Revelation 20:4-6 this is talking about a PHYSICAL BODILY RESURRECTION [AND THEY LIVED -AND- reigned with Christ a thousand years....]
Revelation 20:4-6
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshipped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived, and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

No they didnt have a physical body resurrection, they were beheaded and became living souls, and entered the spiritual realm of the Lords 1000 years.

Those that are saved are always the living on this earth or in the spiritual realm.

The unsaved are the dead

Once again you can't find a literal earthly kingdom in Revelation 20:1-6 cause its 100% The Lords Spiritual.

2 Corinthians 5:8KJV
To be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

[BABerean2]

The Judgment by fire will happen AFTER the 1,000 years reign of Jesus on the Earth...

That is not what Paul said below.

2Th 1:7　 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:　
2Th 1:9　 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;　
2Th 1:10　 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Paul said the fire will come when He is revealed from heaven.


It is also not what Jesus said in the parable of the wheat and tares from Matthew chapter 13.
The tares will be burned first in the fire, and then those who belong to Him will be gathered into the barn.

　

.

 

[Riberra]

That is not what Paul said below.

2Th 1:7　 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,　
2Th 1:8　 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:　

Here what will happen :
Zechariah 14

1 Behold, a day of Jehovah cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14


12 And this shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as that plague.

The END of the Earth have not come yet

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso of [all] the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither [shall it be] upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

 

[Truth7t7]

Here what will happen :
Zechariah 14

1 Behold, a day of Jehovah cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14


12 And this shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as that plague.

The END of the Earth have not come yet

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso of [all] the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither [shall it be] upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

The end did come in Zechariah 14:12, the last day fire in judgment of the Lord has taken place.

2 peter 3:10-13, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Luke 17:29, Malachi 3:2, 1 Corinthians 3:13

Zechariah 14

In verses 1-4 you see the second advent/coming, and final battle of Armageddon. verses 5-6 eternal light in the eternal kingdom, verse 8 the eternal river of life is present.

verses 16-21 show the "Eternal Kingdom" not a false 1000 year earthly millennial kingdom, where mortal humans are present.

The only ones left from the Judgment of Nations are the righteous saved, who's names were in the book of life.

Yes there will be rain, trees, fruit, rivers, fish, animals, in the "Eternal Kingdon" like a remake of the garden of eden.

God the father and Son will sit upon the eternal throne in New Jerusalem, the river of life will come from this throne, living water for the eternal kingdom.

Possibly you need to clear the worlds deception, of female angels with long hair, floating in the air with harps, as eternity?

Hope this helps

Truth7t7

 

[BABerean2]

Here what will happen :
Zechariah 14

1 Behold, a day of Jehovah cometh, when thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall Jehovah go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east; and the mount of Olives shall be cleft in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, [and there shall be] a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Zechariah 14


12 And this shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite all the peoples that have warred against Jerusalem: their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their sockets, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from Jehovah shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbor, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbor.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the nations round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in those camps, as that plague.

The END of the Earth have not come yet

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations that came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso of [all] the families of the earth goeth not up unto Jerusalem to worship the King, Jehovah of hosts, upon them there shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, neither [shall it be] upon them; there shall be the plague wherewith Jehovah will smite the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations that go not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Most of the false doctrines on this forum exist by ignoring the clear text of the New Testament authors, and promoting the less clear text from the Old Testament, instead.

The Premill doctrine is just one example.

On the road to Emmaus Christ revealed that the whole Old Testament is about Him.

Luke 24:25-27

.

 

[Riberra]

Most of the false doctrines on this forum exist by ignoring the clear text of the New Testament author

[/COLOR][/B]

Its funny to see that it is exactly what you do with Revelation 20:4-6 ...

 

[Riberra]

In verses 1-4 you see the second advent/coming, and final battle of Armageddon.

Agreed

verse 4-

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives...That is the physical coming of Jesus to rule the nations with a rod of iron. Revelation 19:15