Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

Biblewriter

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Well ya struck out on Ezekiel 47,& Did the same with Isaiah 65 & Zechariah 14, they all represent the "Eternal Kingdom"
So- you accept the concept of death in the eternal kingdom?
 
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Truth7t7

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So- you accept the concept of death in the eternal kingdom?
Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 are the same place, "The Eternal" New Heaven and Earth, an infant dying a 100 years old is a description of "Eternal" not literal.

Ask yourself honestly, is the New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem seen in both accounts, "Yes"

Then you interpret the scripture in the "Eternal Sense" :)
 
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Biblewriter

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Isaiah 65:17-19 & Revelation 21:1-5 are the same place, "The Eternal" New Heaven and Earth, an infant dying a 100 years old is a description of "Eternal" not literal.

Ask yourself honestly, is the new heaven and earth seen in both accounts, "Yes"

Then you interpret the scripture in the "Eternal Sense" :)

Sorry, but I accept the explicit statements of the Holy Spirit over the interpretations you choose to make of them.
 
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Truth7t7

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I will share with you something that you can print out and give it to 100 pastors and ask them if they agree and why they do . In Genesis we see that humans lived to be nearly 1000 years old , it be no surprise that the last generation of humans live as long as they did in the beginning.

In the eternal realm time does not exist which is one reason why God has no beginning or end He has always existed. You need to understand that the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth is very different than the eternal realm in which we go into in the distant future as it happens after the 1000 years.

In a Kingdom, in order to rule and reign over people you need people that are not part of the kingdom to rule and reign over. Husbands do not rule and reign over their wives , they are partners , fathers do not have children in order to have subjects to rule over, they are a Father to raise and teach their children on how to become independent and live and survive on their own and raise a family .

The souls that are seen in Rev20 are part of those who are resurrected , so yes they are raised to life and given a new glorified body that never dies and is never separated from Christ . There are humans that give birth to children during the 1000 year reign of Christ and scripture tells us that we will rule and reign with Christ and they will be the people we rule over with Christ, No we will not be ruling and reigning over each other or anyone in the family of God -brothers and sisters in Christ as we will be a family of God -
That human generation during the 1000 years will be the last generation of humankind as we are now, and will have extended lifespan like it was in the days of Methuselah. Humankind will populate to a very large number and satan during this time is bound in chains and unable to deceive anyone during this time. After the 1000 years are over satan is set free to deceive who he can and then all those who follow satan are killed by fire that comes down from heaven.

The people of that generation that choose to follow Christ will then be permitted to be among the family of God. , After satan/death/sin/ are cast into the lake of fire there will be a new earth and a new heaven and all sin is gone , death is gone and everyone who is among the family of God/Christ will now be an eternal family and the context of a kingdom is no longer a premise as it will be a family.

Then will be the time when as it was in the beginning so shall it will be in the end - The Garden of Eden as intended -Family and not ruling and reigning as there will not be people outside of Christs family to reign over.

At this time it will be the no eye has seen , no ear has heard , no mind can conceive the things God has planned for us in the Eternal realm. While this is just a summary and not all inclusive it is to show you there is are different purposes for the 1000 year reign and the eternal realm.
The 1000 year reign is temporary and the eternal realm is permanent and never ends

As obtuse as you have been I realize you will not agree but since this is something you do not understand someone had to explain it to you
You write a Novel big enough to start a publishing company, and provide no scripture to support your claims?

Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% "Spiritual Realm"

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Dead, The Souls, God, Christ,?

Can you honestly believe this represents humans on earth, living and dying as Jesus sits on a earthly throne some where?
 
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jgr

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I have seen some dumbfounding comments since first coming here many years ago. But this one is near the top of the list. I really would have expected almost anyone claiming some knowledge and understanding of the scriptures to have demonstrated at least a little more understanding than this.

You are citing a statement from the time of Joshua, c. 1444 B.C., that God had kept every promise He had made, as a fulfillment of a promise of what would happen in the future, which was made about 870 years later, c. 574 B.C.!

The prophecy of Ezekiel was made after both Israel and Judah had been carried away, out of their lands, because of their sins. And chapters 47 and 48 promise that they would be brought back, and not only brought back, but re-established as a single nation, with borders that they have never had, and that the land would be divided in a way that it has never been divided. It is utter nonsense to even try to pretend that this has ever been fulfilled,

The borders specified in Ezekiel 47 are restatements of equivalent specifications in Genesis 15, Exodus 23, Numbers 34, Deuteronomy 11, and Joshua 1; all of which pre-date Joshua 21.
 
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Truth7t7

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Jesus will have a throne that is accessible to all born-again Christians , anyone who accepts Christ as savoir
Since you never believe anything other than what you say , why bother , you won't understand , besides IF you ever really read the entire bible you would know where it all is , google it
Jesus Christcurrently sits upon the throne, at the right hand of the Father, his throne is accessible to all that call upon his name from a true repentant heart.

PS there will be no 1000 year kingdo. on this earth.
 
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Biblewriter

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You write a Novel big enough to start a publishing company, and provide no scripture to support your claims?

Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% "Spiritual Realm"

Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Dead, The Souls, God, Christ,?

Can you honestly believe this represents humans on earth, living and dying as Jesus sits on a earthly throne some where?
Everything he said is clearly stated in scripture.
 
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Biblewriter

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The borders specified in Ezekiel 47 are restatements of equivalent specifications in Genesis 15, Exodus 23, Numbers 34, Deuteronomy 11, and Joshua 1; all of which pre-date Joshua 21.

Except, of course, two details. First, although they are highly similar, they are different from these previous borders. and second, they are explicitly stated to apply to a time in the future of the prophecy. This new border is explicitly stated to apply to a restoration of Israel as a nation.
 
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BABerean2

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Except, of course, two details. First, although they are highly similar, they are different from these previous borders. and second, they are explicitly stated to apply to a time in the future of the prophecy. This new border is explicitly stated to apply to a restoration of Israel as a nation.

This same claim above is found on page 338 of the book "Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", by the Jesuit Manuel Lacunza.

"The bounds of the land of promise marked off in this prophecy, are doubtless, somewhat more ample than the children of Israel ever occupied..."

This book was translated into English by Edward Irving and presented at the Albury Prophetic Conferences in the UK during the 1820's.
Irving included his commentary along with the book.
On page 63 of his commentary Irving used the word "dispensation" thirteen times.

This work is the founding document of modern Dispensational Theology.
According to well known Dispensationalist Dr. Charles Ryrie, John Darby became interested in prophecy after attending conferences at Albury.


Genesis of Dispensational Theology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee4RS5pDntQ



Sadly, millions of modern Christians are now supporting the "Greater Israel Project".

America's wars in the Middle East are designed to weaken Israel's neighbors in an effort to aid this goal.
One of my former students, was an American soldier who was killed in Iraq.
I have visited his grave.


Thousands have been sacrificed toward the goal of "Greater Israel".

It is one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church.


.
 
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Biblewriter

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And what is supposed to be the point of the fact that Lacunza was one of the people that noticed what the scriptures explicitly say? He was far from the first (relative) modern to notice that the scriptures explicitly say this nation will be restored, and most certainly not the last.

this is nothing but an attempt to advance the proven falsehood, that Dispensationalism came from Lacunza.
 
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Truth7t7

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Except, of course, two details. First, although they are highly similar, they are different from these previous borders. and second, they are explicitly stated to apply to a time in the future of the prophecy. This new border is explicitly stated to apply to a restoration of Israel as a nation.
Ezekiel 47 Is "The Eternal Kingdom", and has absolutely nothing to do with Israel as a Earthly Nation, as you falsely claim.

Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-5, Same Place, The Eternal Kingdom Where The River And Tree Of Life Are Present.

River Of Life Flows From The Throne/ Sanctuary. The Tree Of Life Giving Fruit Every Month, Leaves Of The Tree For Healing/ Medicine.

How Long Will You Falsely Teach That "The Eternal Kingdom" , Is A Earthly Place Where Mortal Humans Are Present, Living And Dying.
 
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Truth7t7

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And what is supposed to be the point of the fact that Lacunza was one of the people that noticed what the scriptures explicitly say? He was far from the first (relative) modern to notice that the scriptures explicitly say this nation will be restored, and most certainly not the last.

this is nothing but an attempt to advance the proven falsehood, that Dispensationalism came from Lacunza.
The historical teachings of a pre-trib rapture "Dispensational Zionism" are right in line with Bereans presentation.

With John Hagee and his second wife "Diana Castro" at the front of todays line concerning this false teaching.
 
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jgr

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Except, of course, two details. First, although they are highly similar, they are different from these previous borders. and second, they are explicitly stated to apply to a time in the future of the prophecy. This new border is explicitly stated to apply to a restoration of Israel as a nation.
1. How exactly are they different?
2. What is the significance of the difference?
3. What is the difference in the area of the land which they enclose?
4. What covenant if any are they associated with?
5. How does any natural river increase in depth with the same volume of water emanating from its source (v. 3-5), as does this one, as one proceeds downstream?
 
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Biblewriter

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1. How exactly are they different?
2. What is the significance of the difference?
3. What is the difference in the area of the land which they enclose?
4. What covenant if any are they associated with?
5. How does any natural river increase in depth with the same volume of water emanating from its source (v. 3-5), as does this one, as one proceeds downstream?
The details of the future border are not found in any previous description. But that is not important. The important thing is that the passage I quoted specifically and explicitly says it is future.

This is in the natural world. But it is obviously not unchanged. We are explicitly told that there shall be no more curse. Likewise the river is obviously not a natural river. But that does not even imply that this is the eternal state. For both of the scriptures I quoted explicitly say that there will be death, even though people will live for a very long time.
 
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BABerean2

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this is nothing but an attempt to advance the proven falsehood, that Dispensationalism came from Lacunza.

Based on your past posts, if you can find anyone else who ever used the word "dispensation", which is a Bible word, then according to you it had nothing to do with Irving or Lacunza.

Forget the fact that Irving used the word thirteen times on one page of his commentary that accompanied the English translation of Lacunza's book,
or that Irving presented doctrine from the book at the Albury Conference,
or that Dr. Charles Ryrie said Darby became interested in prophecy at the Albury Conference.



.
 
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seventysevens

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Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% "Spiritual Realm"
Revelation 20:1-7
Verses 1 - 3 says an angel came down out of heaven and seized onto satan and locked satan up for 1000 years and afterwards will be set free for a short time. At this time satan is on earth which is why the angel acme down from heaven

Verses 4-6 says the martyred dead were brought back to life from the dead - just as many others scriptures throughout the bible teaches this will happen , and those who were brought back to life became priests of God and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. .
Will you please explain exactly how this is spiritual ? Please Explain who are people these priests of God were reigning over ?

If as you say that when Christ returns it is immediately the Final judgment for all and we enter into the Eternal realm where the only people who are allowed into this time will have a new glorified body that will never be separated from Jesus since Jesus says no one can ever pluck them out of his hand , .Will you please explain exactly how this is spiritual ? Please explain why satan is not yet judged and how he would be allowed into the eternal kingdom as you call it ?

Verse 7 says that after 1000 years of prison satan is released to go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth , and he did deceive the number of people like the number of grains of sand on the seashore which is obviously a very large number of people who were deceived and approaching in a march to attack Gods people; that were destroyed by Fire form God.
Will you please explain who are the people that satan could deceive if the final judgment has already happened before satan is released from prison ?,

If all had been judged in the Final judgment and we are in the eternal realm , who is it that God has destroyed with fire that came down from heaven?
 
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Truth7t7

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Verses 1 - 3 says an angeanme down out of heaven and seized onto satan and locked satan up for 1000 years and afterwards will be set free for a short time. At this time satan is on earth which is why the angel acme down from heaven

Verses 4-6 says the martyred dead were brought back to life from the dead - just as many others scriptures throughout the bible teaches this will happen , and those who were brought back to life became priests of God and reigned with Christ for 1000 years. .
Will you please explain exactly how this is spiritual ? Please Explain who are people these priests of God were reigning over ?

If as you say that when Christ returns it is immediately the Final judgment for all and we enter into the Eternal realm where the only people who are allowed into this time will have a new glorified body that will never be separated from Jesus since Jesus says no one can ever pluck them out of his hand , .Will you please explain exactly how this is spiritual ? Please explain why satan is not yet judged and how he would be allowed into the eternal kingdom as you call it ?

Verse 7 says that after 1000 years of prison satan is released to go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth , and he did deceive the number of people like the number of grains of sand on the seashore which is obviously a very large number of people who were deceived and approaching in a march to attack Gods people; that were destroyed by Fire form God.
Will you please explain who are the people that satan could deceive if the final judgment has already happened before satan is released from prison ?,

If all had been judged in the Final judgment and we are in the eternal realm , who is it that God has destroyed with fire that came down from heaven?
I will explain the future scenario real slow.

1. There will be a future man of sin/antichrist who will be in Jerusalem, a slick talker like a politician, he will be given 42 months, the tribulation starts at his revealing to be God returned..

2. The two witnesses seen in revelation 11 will stand before the Antichrist day for day, they will bring the plagues upon the earth as seen in revelation, like Moses and Aaron against Pharaoh. At the end of the tribulation they will be killed and lay in the streets of Jerusalem, as the final hours of earths history takes place, sun,moon blood, stars fall, massive earthquake island/mountains move as Jesus returns if first judgment that dissolves the earth.

The second advent, resurrection/catching up, final judgment all takes place in the "Twinkling Of An Eye" Eternity Begins in the New Heaven, Earth, And Jerusalem

Hope that helps, feel free to ask questions, scripture reference to prove the info claimed.
 
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jgr

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The details of the future border are not found in any previous description. But that is not important. The important thing is that the passage I quoted specifically and explicitly says it is future.

This is in the natural world. But it is obviously not unchanged. We are explicitly told that there shall be no more curse. Likewise the river is obviously not a natural river. But that does not even imply that this is the eternal state. For both of the scriptures I quoted explicitly say that there will be death, even though people will live for a very long time.
So this is a different land promise than the one to Abraham in Genesis 15:18. According to Joshua 21:43, that original promise to Abraham was fulfilled. Would you agree?
 
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