Did Cain and Abel Keep the Torah or Sabbath?

pinacled

walking with the Shekinah
Apr 29, 2015
3,311
1,007
United states
✟171,798.77
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It existed, but it was only commanded to be remembered since the Exodus.
It just seemed to me that our High Priest is teaching Sabbaths.



"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

And Joseph's sons, who were born to him in Egypt, two souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob who came to Egypt were seventy.


"No, not seven times," Jesus replied, "but seventy times seven!

Genesis 50
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
The Sabbath existed prior to Moses, the Sabbath was made for man. Moses lead a mixed multitude out of Egypt, thus many heard the law read to them not just Jews.
Let's go over this point by point, and then you can reply to me, point by point.
1. Just because the Sabbath exists doesn't mean anyone is commanded to observe it. In the day of Cain and Abel, the Sabbath existed, but there was no command for anyone to honor it in any way. The first command by God to observe the Sabbath was after the Exodus from Egypt, and this command was given to Israel.

2. The Mixed multitude left their lives as Egyptians behind, and bound themselves to Israel. They converted to the religion of the Israelites. When the Mosaic covenant was given, they took it upon themselves. IOW, they became Israelites/Jews themselves. Their ethncity changed. They were adopted into the People of Israel.

3. When we say that the Sabbath was made for man rather than man for the Sabbath, it is to say that the Sabbath serves the person. It is NOT the point to say that the Sabbath was given to all the world.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Because the story is a creative figurative teaching story, not history or science. Genesis 1 is meant to teach us that God created everything and that it is good. The six days and stuff are not literal. They are literary devices to create verses.
I don't agree... I take it literal and always will. :)
 
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
7 Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people honoreth me with their lips; But their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain do they worship me, Teaching as their doctrines the precepts of men. Mt 15


Pink (master of types) on Cain and Abel

.....from 'Gleanings in Genesis':


"Now all these things happened unto them for types (margin); and they are written for our admonition" (1 Cor. 10:11).

“Abel is a striking type of Christ, and his murder by Cain was a remarkable foreshadowment of our Lord’s rejection and crucifixion by the Jews. At least thirty-five points of resemblance can be traced here between type and antitype. In considering Abel as a type of our Lord, it is to be noted that, like Isaac, offered up on the altar and the ram caught in a thicket, which afterwards took his place in death, we have here a double type also. Both Abel and the offering which he brought pointed to the Lord Jesus.”

36 similarities itemized:

Abel was a shepherd (Gen. 4:2)
Our Lord is a "shepherd"—the Good Shepherd—

It was as a shepherd that Abel presented his offering unto God
It was as the Shepherd He presented His offering to God (John 10:11)

Though giving no cause for it, he was hated by his brother. Cain was jealous of his brother. i
Though giving no cause for it, Christ was hated by His brethren according to the flesh (John 15:25).

It was out of "envy" that Cain slew he slew Abel.
It was through "envy" that Christ was delivered up to be crucified (Matthew 27:18).

Abel then did not die a natural death.
Our Lord did not die a natural death. He was "slain" by wicked hands (Acts 2:23).

Abel met with a violent end at the hand of his own brother.
Christ was crucified by "The House of Israel" (Acts 2:36), His own brethren according to the flesh.

After his death God declared that Abel’s blood "cried" unto Him, and severe punishment was meted out upon his murderer.
After His death our Lord’s murderers were severely punished by God (Mark 12:9)

Abel presented an offering "unto God" (Heb. 11:4).
The Lord Jesus presented an offering "to God" (Eph. 5:2).

That the offering which Abel presented was "the firstlings of his flock": in other words, a "lamb."
The offering Christ presented was Himself—a "Lamb" (1 Pet. 1:19).

In bringing his offering "by faith," Abel honored and magnified the Will and Word of the Lord.
In presenting Himself as an offering He honored and magnified the Will and Word of God (Heb. 10:7-9).

The offering which Abel presented is described as an "excellent" one (Heb. 11:4).
The offering Christ presented was an "excellent" one—it was a "sweet smelling savor" (Eph. 5:2).

God had "respect unto Abel and to his offering": in other words, He accepted them.
God accepted Christ's offering: the proof of this is seen in the fact that He is now seated at God’s right hand (Heb. 10:12).

In the presentation of his offering Abel "obtained witness that he was righteous" (Heb. 11:4).
While presenting Himself on the Cross as an offering to God, Christ "obtained witness that He was righteous "—the centurion crying, "Certainly this was a righteous man" (Luke 23:47).

After Abel had presented his offering, God publicly "testified" His acceptance of it.
God publicly testified His acceptance of Christ’s offering by raising Him from the dead (Acts 2:32).

Abel’s offering still "speaks" to God—"By it he being dead yet speaketh."
Christ’s offering now "speaks" to God (Heb. 12:24).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as Abel and his offering are, at every point, a wonderful type of Christ and His offering, so Cain, who slew Abel, prefigures the Jews, who crucified their Messiah.

Cain was "a tiller of the ground" (Gen. 4:2). Thus the first thing told us about him connects him with the land.
The first thing which is conspicuous about the Jews was that they were the people of a land the promised land, the Holy Land (Gen. 13:15).

In refusing to bring the required lamb, Cain rejected the offering which God’s grace had provided.
In refusing the Lamb of God (John 1:11) the Jews rejected the offering which God’s grace had provided.

In his self-righteousness Cain brought an offering of his own choosing.
The apostle Paul declares that the Jews were "ignorant of God’s righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness" (Rom. 10:3).

The offering he brought was the product of his own labors.
The Jews rested upon their own obedience to God’s Law (Rom. 9:21).

This offering was rejected by God.
But God had no respect to the Jew's works (Acts 13:39).

It was Cain’s God-given privilege to rule over his brother (Gen. 4:7).
Had Israel walked in God’s statutes they would have been the head of the nations (Deut. 28:13).

Cain forfeited his God-given privilege to rule over his brother.
But through sin the Jews forfeited the place and privilege (Isa. 9:14).

Being envious of Abel, Cain wickedly slew him.
It was the Jews who crucified the Christ of God (Acts 5:30).

God charged Cain with his crime.
God charged the Jews with their crime (Acts 2:22, 23).

God told Cain that Abel’s blood cried for vengeance.
Christ’s blood is now judicially resting "upon" the Jews (Matthew 27:25).

Because of the shedding of his brother’s blood, God’s curse fell upon Cain.
Because of the crucifixion of their Messiah, God’s curse fell upon Israel (Jer. 24:9)

Part of Cain's punishment consisted in the ground becoming barren to him (Gen. 4:12).
Part of the curse which God threatened of old to bring upon Israel was the barrenness of their land—"desolate" (Lev. 26:34, 35).

Further, Cain was to be a fugitive and vagabond in the earth.
The Jew has been an age-long wanderer in the earth (Deut. 28:65).

Cain acknowledged that his punishment was greater than he could bear.
Israel will yet acknowledge their punishment is greater than they can bear (Zech.12:10).

Because of his sin, he was "driven out" (Gen. 4:14).
Forty years after the Crucifixion, Israel was driven out of Palestine.

Because of his sin, he was hidden from God’s face.
Since the Crucifiction, God’s face has been hid from the Jews. (Hosea 1:9).

Every man’s hand was now against Cain (Gen. 4:14).
For nigh 2,000 years, almost every man’s hand has been against the Jew (Deut. 28:66).

God set a mark upon him (Gen. 4:15).
A mark of identification has been placed upon the Jew so that he can be recognized anywhere.

God declared that He would visit with a sevenfold vengeance those who slew Cain.
God’s special curse has always rested on those who have cursed Israel (Gen. 12:3).

Cain left the land and went and dwelt in a city (Gen. 4:17).
For the most part, even to this day, the Jews continue to congregate in large cities.

“Upon what ground can we account for this remarkable agreement between type and antitype? The only possible explanation lies in the supernatural inspiration of the Old Testament Scriptures. The Holy Spirit "moved" the writer of Genesis. Only He who knew the end from the beginning could have foreshadowed so accurately and minutely that which came to pass thousands of years afterwards. Prophecy, either in direct utterance or in symbolic type, is the Divine autograph upon the sacred page. May God continue to strengthen our faith in the divinity, the authority and the absolute sufficiency of the Holy Oracles.”


That is a lot of scripture, a good amount taken out of context in regards to Judaism and especially Messianic Judaism. Perhaps you didn't see that this is the Messianic Judaism forum? Part of the SOP is:




    • Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe, as Yeshua taught, that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.​
 
Upvote 0

kyredneck

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
36
26
70
Kentucky
✟16,343.00
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps you didn't see that this is the Messianic Judaism forum?

My mistake. I'll stifle.

Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe, as Yeshua taught, that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.

But I am curious where Christ actually taught this. Scripture?
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There's an underlying continuity/consistency throughout the scriptures that it's actually the second born that obtains the favor of God, not the firstborn, i.e., Cain/Abel, Shem/Japheth, Ishmael/Isaac, Essau/Jacob, Leah/Rachel, Mannassah/Ephraim, First/Second Wilderness Generations, Saul/David, First Covenant/Second Covenant, First Man Adam/Second Adam (and doubtless many others):

It was not Cain's sacrifice that God had respect for, but it was Abel's; 'Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother....Because his works were evil, and his brother`s righteous.' [1 Jn 3:12]

Shem was the elder brother of Japheth, but, 'God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem...' [Gen 10:21 ASV & 9:27]

It was Ishmael, the firstborn, that was born after the flesh, and he persecuted Isaac, the second born, that was born after the Spirit. Isaac was the child of promise; Ishmael was cast out. [Gal 4:29]

It was said of Esau and Jacob, 'The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' [Ro 9:12,13]

It was not Leah his first wife that Jacob loved, but it was Rachel his second wife. [Gen 29:30,31]

It was Ephraim the younger that Jacob blessed over his older brother Mannassah and in spite of Joseph's objections. [Gen 48:13-20]

It was not the first generation of the exodus that entered into the rest of the promised land, it was the second generation; 'But your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.' [Nu 14:31]

It was not Saul the first king of Israel that would do all of God's will, but it was the second king David that was a man after His heart; '...Saul the son of Kish...when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who shall do all My will.' [Acts 13:21,22]

It was not the first covenant of the law ( I desire mercy, and not sacrifice) that God had pleasure in, but it was the second covenant of grace; '....a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.' [Heb 8:6,7]

Consider 'the first man Adam' vs. 'the last Adam, ' ... that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.' [1 Cor 15:45-47]
The birthright of the firstborn falling to the second does not mean the first went without blessing. I can go over each example you gave and show how they are pivotal to God's plan and in positive ways. Isaac... he is the progression of the promise that extends from Abraham through Isaac to Jacob to Israel (Psalms 105:8-10) or Leah and Rachel? Each mothers of tribes of Israel.

As for Heb. 8:6-7... you need to go read it again, respectfully. It doesn't say that God found fault in IT (meaning the covenant, He is the author of it which makes it perfect after all) but rather, He found fault in THEM meaning the people the covenant was made with. As for what makes it better? It isn't being written on stone and being asked that we keep it on our hearts... it is being written directly on the hearts by God Himself... that is better.
 
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
My mistake. I'll stifle.



But I am curious where Christ actually taught this. Scripture?
As a trained rabbi Yeshua would have been extremely versed in the written and oral Torah and Midrash to explain and expound on the Torah. Even Yeshua's use of parables are a type of midrash if we choose to look at them that way. Yeshua did not have to explicitly state it as he lived it, the people of the time would have known this as well. But much that has been written is post-Yeshua, but still valuable in interpreting the Tanakh (Old Testament) from a point of view of our shared faith and where Christianity came from. Taken together Tanakh, Midrash, B'rit Hadasha, etc. can give us an incredible full and better understanding of the scriptures.
 
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
He grew up attending synagogues and their schools, so of course He was familiar with rabbinical teaching, BUT, as Yahweh in the flesh and Author of the holy scriptures Christ needed ZILCH training from men in order to "explain and expound on the Torah".
Yes, I agree, he attended synagogue and the synagogue school for training which would have included midrash and the Oral Torah. He would not have just been "familiar" with rabbinic training and teaching, he would have literally lived and breathed it every day. The typical pattern would have been to attend as a child, show good progress and capability (which He obviously had), move to the next training level, and then continue training under a respected rabbi until around age 30 when one would have been recognized as a "rabbi" by the community. Obviously this time line works well in the chronology of Yeshua. I also agree that he needed zero training, but that does not mean he did not receive it in some manner. In order to be respected among his peers and the community, and he was, he would have had to have a rabbinic "pedigree" of some sort, to think otherwise would not be in concordance to the culture Yeshua lived and taught in.
 
Upvote 0

Ken Rank

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 12, 2014
7,218
5,560
Winchester, KENtucky
✟308,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You referenced TWO verses before, not just 7...

Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--

I am taking a break from here for an extended time. I had already signed out and thought I killed all email notifications but didn't. So if there is anything you really feel the need to share, for me to see, look my name up on Facebook, the picture is the same. Peace.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

kyredneck

Active Member
Nov 3, 2017
36
26
70
Kentucky
✟16,343.00
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
haha :)
I see that you are Baptist (from the info on the left). Perhaps take a step back and remember that our religion (Christianity) is based on a faith that was Jewish for thousands of years before the Messiach came. It was steeped in the ritual and beliefs of the Jewish people. The disciples and first Christians worshiped as Jews or G-d Fearers for quite a while before leaving the synagogues. They also worshiped at the Temple and continued in the sacrificial system until the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD - so they continued making sacrifices via the Aaronic priesthood to Hashem as commanded by G-d for another 30 or so years after Yeshua ascended to Heaven. If they truly believed in replacement theology as well, why would they continue making sacrifices via the Aaronic priests until the Temple was destroyed? A decent argument can be made that the first believers were a Temple sect...

FYI, by 'stifling' I mean respect for this forum's designation. By no means misconstrue it as 'seeing it your way'.

The first covenant was ADDED (casting a shadow of the good things of the Everlasting Covenant behind it):

What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made.....Gal 3:19,

And then it was removed:

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:7

Only the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ remains. NOT some 'Aaronic priesthood covenant' that you seem to be espousing.

Now, I don't belong here, and out of respect to forum etiquette, I'm done here.
 
Upvote 0

pinacled

walking with the Shekinah
Apr 29, 2015
3,311
1,007
United states
✟171,798.77
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
FYI, by 'stifling' I mean respect for this forum's designation. By no means misconstrue it as 'seeing it your way'.

The first covenant was ADDED (casting a shadow of the good things of the Everlasting Covenant behind it):

What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made.....Gal 3:19,

And then it was removed:

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:7

Only the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ remains. NOT some 'Aaronic priesthood covenant' that you seem to be espousing.

Now, I don't belong here, and out of respect to forum etiquette, I'm done here.
which is true what you say about the inheritance.

Where there is Blood there is a testator.
And the same Blood has sealed the 12 tribes
 
Upvote 0

danny ski

Newbie
Jan 13, 2013
1,867
506
✟34,912.00
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Private
Do you disagree with Yeshua? If you do then how can you claim to be Messianic? So "do not steal" only applies to Jews? What about "do not murder?" Cain murdered his brother, where and when was it written? Yeshua does those things he see his father doing.
a) that's not an answer.
b) I'm not Messianic. Just a plain Jew.
 
Upvote 0

Mercymessianicjudiasm

Active Member
Oct 30, 2017
179
21
54
Germantown
✟28,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Let's go over this point by point, and then you can reply to me, point by point.
1. Just because the Sabbath exists doesn't mean anyone is commanded to observe it. In the day of Cain and Abel, the Sabbath existed, but there was no command for anyone to honor it in any way. The first command by God to observe the Sabbath was after the Exodus from Egypt, and this command was given to Israel.

2. The Mixed multitude left their lives as Egyptians behind, and bound themselves to Israel. They converted to the religion of the Israelites. When the Mosaic covenant was given, they took it upon themselves. IOW, they became Israelites/Jews themselves. Their ethncity changed. They were adopted into the People of Israel.

3. When we say that the Sabbath was made for man rather than man for the Sabbath, it is to say that the Sabbath serves the person. It is NOT the point to say that the Sabbath was given to all the world.
Are you familiar with "common law" marriage? Cain committed sin long before Moses said " thou shall not murder" , I thought we agreed. Do you not realize you can sin without the law? Romans 2:12 Again sin is the violation of the law.
 
Upvote 0

Mercymessianicjudiasm

Active Member
Oct 30, 2017
179
21
54
Germantown
✟28,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Pink (master of types) on Cain and Abel

.....from 'Gleanings in Genesis':


"Now all these things happened unto them for types (margin); and they are written for our admonition" (1 Cor. 10:11).

“Abel is a striking type of Christ, and his murder by Cain was a remarkable foreshadowment of our Lord’s rejection and crucifixion by the Jews. At least thirty-five points of resemblance can be traced here between type and antitype. In considering Abel as a type of our Lord, it is to be noted that, like Isaac, offered up on the altar and the ram caught in a thicket, which afterwards took his place in death, we have here a double type also. Both Abel and the offering which he brought pointed to the Lord Jesus.”

36 similarities itemized:

Abel was a shepherd (Gen. 4:2)
Our Lord is a "shepherd"—the Good Shepherd—

It was as a shepherd that Abel presented his offering unto God
It was as the Shepherd He presented His offering to God (John 10:11)

Though giving no cause for it, he was hated by his brother. Cain was jealous of his brother. i
Though giving no cause for it, Christ was hated by His brethren according to the flesh (John 15:25).

It was out of "envy" that Cain slew he slew Abel.
It was through "envy" that Christ was delivered up to be crucified (Matthew 27:18).

Abel then did not die a natural death.
Our Lord did not die a natural death. He was "slain" by wicked hands (Acts 2:23).

Abel met with a violent end at the hand of his own brother.
Christ was crucified by "The House of Israel" (Acts 2:36), His own brethren according to the flesh.

After his death God declared that Abel’s blood "cried" unto Him, and severe punishment was meted out upon his murderer.
After His death our Lord’s murderers were severely punished by God (Mark 12:9)

Abel presented an offering "unto God" (Heb. 11:4).
The Lord Jesus presented an offering "to God" (Eph. 5:2).

That the offering which Abel presented was "the firstlings of his flock": in other words, a "lamb."
The offering Christ presented was Himself—a "Lamb" (1 Pet. 1:19).

In bringing his offering "by faith," Abel honored and magnified the Will and Word of the Lord.
In presenting Himself as an offering He honored and magnified the Will and Word of God (Heb. 10:7-9).

The offering which Abel presented is described as an "excellent" one (Heb. 11:4).
The offering Christ presented was an "excellent" one—it was a "sweet smelling savor" (Eph. 5:2).

God had "respect unto Abel and to his offering": in other words, He accepted them.
God accepted Christ's offering: the proof of this is seen in the fact that He is now seated at God’s right hand (Heb. 10:12).

In the presentation of his offering Abel "obtained witness that he was righteous" (Heb. 11:4).
While presenting Himself on the Cross as an offering to God, Christ "obtained witness that He was righteous "—the centurion crying, "Certainly this was a righteous man" (Luke 23:47).

After Abel had presented his offering, God publicly "testified" His acceptance of it.
God publicly testified His acceptance of Christ’s offering by raising Him from the dead (Acts 2:32).

Abel’s offering still "speaks" to God—"By it he being dead yet speaketh."
Christ’s offering now "speaks" to God (Heb. 12:24).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as Abel and his offering are, at every point, a wonderful type of Christ and His offering, so Cain, who slew Abel, prefigures the Jews, who crucified their Messiah.

Cain was "a tiller of the ground" (Gen. 4:2). Thus the first thing told us about him connects him with the land.
The first thing which is conspicuous about the Jews was that they were the people of a land the promised land, the Holy Land (Gen. 13:15).

In refusing to bring the required lamb, Cain rejected the offering which God’s grace had provided.
In refusing the Lamb of God (John 1:11) the Jews rejected the offering which God’s grace had provided.

In his self-righteousness Cain brought an offering of his own choosing.
The apostle Paul declares that the Jews were "ignorant of God’s righteousness and going about to establish their own righteousness" (Rom. 10:3).

The offering he brought was the product of his own labors.
The Jews rested upon their own obedience to God’s Law (Rom. 9:21).

This offering was rejected by God.
But God had no respect to the Jew's works (Acts 13:39).

It was Cain’s God-given privilege to rule over his brother (Gen. 4:7).
Had Israel walked in God’s statutes they would have been the head of the nations (Deut. 28:13).

Cain forfeited his God-given privilege to rule over his brother.
But through sin the Jews forfeited the place and privilege (Isa. 9:14).

Being envious of Abel, Cain wickedly slew him.
It was the Jews who crucified the Christ of God (Acts 5:30).

God charged Cain with his crime.
God charged the Jews with their crime (Acts 2:22, 23).

God told Cain that Abel’s blood cried for vengeance.
Christ’s blood is now judicially resting "upon" the Jews (Matthew 27:25).

Because of the shedding of his brother’s blood, God’s curse fell upon Cain.
Because of the crucifixion of their Messiah, God’s curse fell upon Israel (Jer. 24:9)

Part of Cain's punishment consisted in the ground becoming barren to him (Gen. 4:12).
Part of the curse which God threatened of old to bring upon Israel was the barrenness of their land—"desolate" (Lev. 26:34, 35).

Further, Cain was to be a fugitive and vagabond in the earth.
The Jew has been an age-long wanderer in the earth (Deut. 28:65).

Cain acknowledged that his punishment was greater than he could bear.
Israel will yet acknowledge their punishment is greater than they can bear (Zech.12:10).

Because of his sin, he was "driven out" (Gen. 4:14).
Forty years after the Crucifixion, Israel was driven out of Palestine.

Because of his sin, he was hidden from God’s face.
Since the Crucifiction, God’s face has been hid from the Jews. (Hosea 1:9).

Every man’s hand was now against Cain (Gen. 4:14).
For nigh 2,000 years, almost every man’s hand has been against the Jew (Deut. 28:66).

God set a mark upon him (Gen. 4:15).
A mark of identification has been placed upon the Jew so that he can be recognized anywhere.

God declared that He would visit with a sevenfold vengeance those who slew Cain.
God’s special curse has always rested on those who have cursed Israel (Gen. 12:3).

Cain left the land and went and dwelt in a city (Gen. 4:17).
For the most part, even to this day, the Jews continue to congregate in large cities.

“Upon what ground can we account for this remarkable agreement between type and antitype? The only possible explanation lies in the supernatural inspiration of the Old Testament Scriptures. The Holy Spirit "moved" the writer of Genesis. Only He who knew the end from the beginning could have foreshadowed so accurately and minutely that which came to pass thousands of years afterwards. Prophecy, either in direct utterance or in symbolic type, is the Divine autograph upon the sacred page. May God continue to strengthen our faith in the divinity, the authority and the absolute sufficiency of the Holy Oracles.”
I have several issues with your thesis statement: 1) Cain murdered Abel with no eye witnesses, Yeshua was murdered by the Romans not the Jews before the whole world. 2) The blood from the altar was sprinkled upon the people according to Moses. Cain could not be executed for murder, there must be at least two witnesses. 3)The ground was not cursed because of Cain, the ground was already cursed because of Adams transgression. Israel was not a descendant or son of Cain but Israel genealogy is from Seth, all of Cain seed were destroyed during the flood. 4) Yahweh never promised a land for a possession to Cain, not one righteous prophet or priest descended from Cain, a royal priesthood was promised to Israel. 5) Abel was a earthly priest, Yeshua was a heavenly priest, as Yeshua never served at the altar.
6) There was blood on David's hands, there was also blood sprinkled on the people, yet David was still permitted to help his son Solomon build YHWH a dwelling place, no blood was found on Cains wicked hands, the blood of Abel cried out from the ground. Onan wasted his seed into ground, instead of raising righteous seed for his dead brother.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Mercymessianicjudiasm

Active Member
Oct 30, 2017
179
21
54
Germantown
✟28,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
There's an underlying continuity/consistency throughout the scriptures that it's actually the second born that obtains the favor of God, not the firstborn, i.e., Cain/Abel, Shem/Japheth, Ishmael/Isaac, Essau/Jacob, Leah/Rachel, Mannassah/Ephraim, First/Second Wilderness Generations, Saul/David, First Covenant/Second Covenant, First Man Adam/Second Adam (and doubtless many others):

It was not Cain's sacrifice that God had respect for, but it was Abel's; 'Cain was of the evil one, and slew his brother....Because his works were evil, and his brother`s righteous.' [1 Jn 3:12]

Shem was the elder brother of Japheth, but, 'God enlarge Japheth, And let him dwell in the tents of Shem...' [Gen 10:21 ASV & 9:27]

It was Ishmael, the firstborn, that was born after the flesh, and he persecuted Isaac, the second born, that was born after the Spirit. Isaac was the child of promise; Ishmael was cast out. [Gal 4:29]

It was said of Esau and Jacob, 'The elder shall serve the younger. Even as it is written, Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.' [Ro 9:12,13]

It was not Leah his first wife that Jacob loved, but it was Rachel his second wife. [Gen 29:30,31]

It was Ephraim the younger that Jacob blessed over his older brother Mannassah and in spite of Joseph's objections. [Gen 48:13-20]

It was not the first generation of the exodus that entered into the rest of the promised land, it was the second generation; 'But your little ones, that ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.' [Nu 14:31]

It was not Saul the first king of Israel that would do all of God's will, but it was the second king David that was a man after His heart; '...Saul the son of Kish...when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who shall do all My will.' [Acts 13:21,22]

It was not the first covenant of the law ( I desire mercy, and not sacrifice) that God had pleasure in, but it was the second covenant of grace; '....a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.' [Heb 8:6,7]

Consider 'the first man Adam' vs. 'the last Adam, ' ... that is not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; then that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is of heaven.' [1 Cor 15:45-47]
Cain brought an offering to Yah without the shedding of blood, like the Romans the blood from his brother cried out from the ground. As a result Cain became a wanderer. Seth replaced righteous Abel , Cain went away to build a city with his wicked hands that had no blood on them. Jacob was the firstborn Exodus 4:22, the older shall serve younger. Saul and David did not have the same father, Joseph and his father Jacob placed their right hands on Ephraim signifying him as the firstborn. We know Yeshua is the firstborn, John says the one who came behind me is also before me. Yeshua is the first and the last. Both Isaac and Ishmael are firstborns according to the law since they have different mothers with the same father. The new covenant like the old one is made with only Israel and Judah.
 
Upvote 0

Mercymessianicjudiasm

Active Member
Oct 30, 2017
179
21
54
Germantown
✟28,230.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
FYI, by 'stifling' I mean respect for this forum's designation. By no means misconstrue it as 'seeing it your way'.

The first covenant was ADDED (casting a shadow of the good things of the Everlasting Covenant behind it):

What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise hath been made.....Gal 3:19,

And then it was removed:

And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that have been made, that those things which are not shaken may remain. Heb 12:7

Only the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ remains. NOT some 'Aaronic priesthood covenant' that you seem to be espousing.

Now, I don't belong here, and out of respect to forum etiquette, I'm done here.
The holy things that were made by the priesthood were shaken and removed, but the "shadow" of those tangible things remain; we know only a tangible object can have a shadow. The shadow further proves that the object still exists and not far away. For he says "this word once more, signifieth ", what word is Shaul talking about? The law? These man made objects (mercy seat) were a copy or pattern of what Moses saw above in heaven.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
Are you familiar with "common law" marriage? Cain committed sin long before Moses said " thou shall not murder" , I thought we agreed. Do you not realize you can sin without the law? Romans 2:12 Again sin is the violation of the law.
I never said there was no sin before Sinai. There was Natural Law before there was Mosaic Law. I'm not sure why this is so difficult. There was all sorts of sin in Noahs day -- sin being the breaking of Natural Law. Don't kill. Don't steal. Don't torture little kids. Natural Law. Nothing about keeping the Sabbath in Natural Law.
 
Upvote 0

AbbaLove

Circumcism Of The Heart
May 16, 2015
2,488
760
✟119,587.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
In Relationship
It's really of no consequence what Mark wrote on the subject because it changes nothing regarding the commandment to observe Shabbat as it is contained in the Torah. Do tell, book, chapter and verse, where Cain and Able we're commanded to keep Shabbat as specified in the Mosaic Covenant?
It seems quite plausible that Adam would have been given an awareness of the significance of every 7th day as a "Day of Rest" and also both Abel and Cain that a "Day of Rest" was made for man from the Get Go. It may have been every 7th Day that the LORD walked in the cool of the day at the time of the evening breeze with Adam and his wife. Then again this awareness of the "7th Day of Rest" became even more meaningful after they left the Garden of Eden having to work by the sweat of their brow until they returned to the ground; "for dust you are and to dust you will return" (Genesis 3:19).

The-Lord-Of-The-Sabbath.jpg

Is it not possible that Abel honored the 7th Day of Rest unto the Almighty Creator; while Cain was half-hearted in his observance. And in time, it was the nature of fallen mankind to dishonor the 7th Day of Rest to the extent that ...

Bereshit 6:5-8 (Chabad Tanach ~ CJB ~ doesn't use all CAPS for YHVH)
5 And the Lord saw that the evil of man was great in the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only evil all the time. הוַיַּ֣רְא יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּ֥י רַבָּ֛ה רָעַ֥ת הָֽאָדָ֖ם בָּאָ֑רֶץ וְכָל־יֵ֨צֶר֙ מַחְשְׁבֹ֣ת לִבּ֔וֹ רַ֥ק רַ֖ע כָּל־הַיּֽוֹם:
6 And the Lord regretted that He had made man upon the earth, and He became grieved in His heart. ווַיִּנָּ֣חֶם יְהֹוָ֔ה כִּֽי־עָשָׂ֥ה אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֖ם בָּאָ֑רֶץ וַיִּתְעַצֵּ֖ב אֶל־לִבּֽוֹ:
7 And the Lord said, "I will blot out man, whom I created, from upon the face of the earth, from man to cattle to creeping thing, to the fowl of the heavens, for I regret that I made them." זוַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהֹוָ֗ה אֶמְחֶ֨ה אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֤ם אֲשֶׁר־בָּרָ֨אתִי֙ מֵעַל֨ פְּנֵ֣י הָֽאֲדָמָ֔ה מֵֽאָדָם֙ עַד־בְּהֵמָ֔ה עַד־רֶ֖מֶשׂ וְעַד־ע֣וֹף הַשָּׁמָ֑יִם כִּ֥י נִחַ֖מְתִּי כִּ֥י עֲשִׂיתִֽם:
8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord. חוְנֹ֕חַ מָ֥צָא חֵ֖ן בְּעֵינֵ֥י יְהֹוָֽה:

Perhaps one reason Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD is that he and his family rested every 7th Day before and during the building of the Ark. Even though due to mankind's evil tendencies they still may have had some awareness of a 7th Day of Rest (according to the then reckoning of time), but they no longer observed it unto the LORD, but instead wasted the day in wanton pleasure.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
It seems quite plausible that Adam would have been given an awareness of the significance of every 7th day as a "Day of Rest" and also both Abel and Cain that a "Day of Rest" was made for man from the Get Go. It may have been every 7th Day that the LORD walked in the cool of the day at the time of the evening breeze with Adam and his wife.
That's just you making stuff up. It's not in the text.
 
Upvote 0