Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

[BABerean2]

The antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and send his armies to kill all of Israel people -

What do we find in the New Testament about genealogies?


1Ti_1:4　 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9　 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.



The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

..........................................................................

The covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with many in Matthew 26:28, which is the same covenant found in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Christ is the New Covenant Messiah.

The promise of the New Covenant to Israel and Judah is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared.

The angel did not come to reveal the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah's arrival and then forgot to mention the New Covenant.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

Im responding via my cell phone, I will respon briefly, unable to copy/paste

In my previous citation of Hippolytus he saw the second advent, conflagration that is the whole world burned up, the heavenly kingdom for the saints, and the wicked punished by the eternal fire.

"The Final Judgment" Eternity!

Hippo didnt see your literal earthly millennial kingdom

This is again nothing but further proof that you did not even bother to read my solid proof. In post #340, I quoted:


Hippolytus said:

"And so it is absolutely necessary for six-thousand years to be fulfilled, so that the Sabbath rest may come, the holy day, in which God rested from all his works which he began to do. The Sabbath is a model and an image of the coming kingdom of the saints, when the saints shall coreign with Christ, when he arrives from heaven, as also John in his Apocalypse describes. For a day of the Lord is as a thousand years. And so since in six days God made all things, it is necessary for six thousand years to be fulfilled. For they are not yet fulfilled, as John says, ‘Five have fallen, but one is,’ such is the sixth millennium, ‘the other has not yet come,’ saying ‘the other’ he describes the seventh millenniumnin which there shall be rest.” (“Commentary on Daniel,” by Hippolytus, 23.4-23.6.)

 

[Biblewriter]

The word is "chiliasts".

Justin Martyr was one, but he acknowledged that "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise". He was referring to amils. His words are a condemnation of contemporary dispensationalism's frequent characterizations of amillenialism as heresy.

I am quite aware that he said this.I did not quote that because it was not part of the subject at that time, which was disproving the claim that all the early church writers were amillennial. The truth is, that we have no record of even one statement that was distinctly amillinnial dating from the first two hundred years of the church.

I do not view amillenialism as outright heresy. But I do contend that, aside from simple ignorance of what the scriptures actually say, is is rank unbelief. For the scriptures could not be more clear and explicit in their many highly detailed and explicit statements of what is coming. And this is not only the Old Testament scriptures, although most of it is there.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is again nothing but further proof that you did not even bother to read my solid proof. In post #340, I quoted:


Hippolytus said:

"And so it is absolutely necessary for six-thousand years to be fulfilled, so that the Sabbath rest may come, the holy day, in which God rested from all his works which he began to do. The Sabbath is a model and an image of the coming kingdom of the saints, when the saints shall coreign with Christ, when he arrives from heaven, as also John in his Apocalypse describes. For a day of the Lord is as a thousand years. And so since in six days God made all things, it is necessary for six thousand years to be fulfilled. For they are not yet fulfilled, as John says, ‘Five have fallen, but one is,’ such is the sixth millennium, ‘the other has not yet come,’ saying ‘the other’ he describes the seventh millenniumnin which there shall be rest.” (“Commentary on Daniel,” by Hippolytus, 23.4-23.6.)

Please post à link to your source, I have researched "earlychristianwritings.com" unable to find this commentary or its source,thanks!

 

[Biblewriter]

Please post à link to your source, I have researched "earlychristianwritings.com" unable to find this commentary or its source,thanks!

My source for this is the translation by T. C. Schmidt, which is still in the process of being published. He had previously posted the entire translation on the internet, but took it down when he contracted with a publisher. but he personally gave me permission to quote from it.

If you send me your personal e-mail, I will forward the entire document to you. And please remember that, although I debate with energy, I hold no personal grudge.

 

[Truth7t7]

My source for this is the translation by T. C. Schmidt, which is still in the process of being published. He had previously posted the entire translation on the internet, but took it down when he contracted with a publisher. but he personally gave me permission to quote from it.

If you send me your personal e-mail, I will forward the entire document to you. And please remember that, although I debate with energy, I hold no personal grudge.[/QU11, member: 111190"]My source for this is the translation by T. C. Schmidt, whi

If you send me your personal e-mail, I will forward the entire document to you. And please remember that, although I debate with energy, I hold no personal grudge.

Looked up T.C. Schmidt, Yale Teacher, recently did a work to show Jesus Was Born On December 25th, Real Big Smiles

His Daniel comentary is available for free download, with only 35 views, ill pass on his work

You believe when Jesus returns with the angels he will start a millennial kingdom on this earth?

 

[seventysevens]

Matthew 25:31-46 is a parallel teaching of the GWT judgment seen in Revelation 20:11-15

verse 31-32, Jesus retutns with the holy angels in his glory, sits on the throne, all nations before him, verse 46 the final judgment is seen, wicked to eternal punishment, the righteous to eternal life, "Simple"

Keras you can deny this fact of scripture, very clear and simple.

There is one time when eternal life will be given as seen in verse 46, at the GWT judgment, when the book of life is open.

You choose to deny this truth, because it disproves your millennial kingdom.

At the return of Jesus Christ, the Final GWT judgment takes place, plain and simple

Matthew 25:46
"And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life."

"The Eternal Kingdom"!

You believe when Jesus returns with the angels he will start a millennial kingdom on this earth?

ABSOLUTELY!!
When Jesus returns he saves Israel from destruction and if he did not return all flesh would have died , but because he does come to earth to establish His Kingdom life is spared from total destruction
It would help your understanding if you relied on Gods Word instead of other peoples commentaries , here is scripture describing it :
Revelation 20
2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

The following are the martyrs that lived during the Great Trib
4.
Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

These are those who rejected Christ as savoir

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

After the 1000 years is over satan is released from the chains that prevented him from deceiving people during the 1000 year reign of Christ and he is allowed to go out to deceive people again - sort of a final purging of people who do not believe Christ is God

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

After satan has deceived who he can after the 1000 years is over he is cast alive into the lake of fire -
then AFTER that is the Great White Throne judgment

Notice that everyone that has accepted Christ is NOT in the GWT judgment this is the combination of those in verse 5 with those who live during the 1000 year reign of Christ, the reference to saying if anyone's name was not found in the book of life they are cast into the lake of fire is applied to only those people as all the rest have already been raised to life to serve with Christ for the 1000 years

 

[seventysevens]

The Abrahamic genome is present in virtually every member of the human race.

Abraham lineage
“And indeed, the number of people in the world today with the “Abrahamic Genetic Signature” is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions.”

That article was written over ten years ago. Since that time, the sophistication and accuracy of genetic testing has steadily improved, enabling recognition at ever increasing breadth and depth. Today, the estimate is almost certainly a multiple of the given estimate of hundreds of millions, and will only continue to increase over time in reflection of the underlying reality of complete permeation. This is in contrast to dispensational claims of only 15 - 20 million Jews worldwide.

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
“With DNA testing becoming so accessible, the number of people discovering their Jewish roots is growing exponentially.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonent...-jewish-links-in-unusual-places/#4dd298461206


How then does God distinguish between Jews and Gentiles if everyone qualifies ethnically as a Jew?

The way He always has distinguished His people -- through belief, faith, and obedience; with ethnicity completely irrelevant.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

That assumes there were no humans ever born before Abraham and we know that is not true
Besides the promise of God to Abraham is that Abraham would be the father of many nations which includes a lot of people

 

[seventysevens]

What do we find in the New Testament about genealogies?


1Ti_1:4　 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.


Tit_3:9　 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.



The following comes from the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

..........................................................................

The covenant with many in Daniel 9:27 is the same covenant with many in Matthew 26:28, which is the same covenant found in Hebrews 8:6-13.

Christ is the New Covenant Messiah.

The promise of the New Covenant to Israel and Judah is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah when the angel Gabriel appeared.

The angel did not come to reveal the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah's arrival and then forgot to mention the New Covenant.

.

That type of view is one of the reasons I believe Preterism is false. It tries to say that prophecies that have not yet happened, have already happened .

All a person needs to do is keep a watchful eye on current times and events and see that the prophecies that Preterists say have already happened are going to happen in the next few of years , simple example is the coming digital monetary system - banks are loving it as it does away with having to transport hundreds of pounds of paper money and coins in armored cars that get robbed ,
no one will be able to go into a bank with a gun and demand to fill a bag with money because all money will be digital and tracked.
You can research Blockchain bitcoin as it is gaining a lot of traction in the business world . Look at what is happening in the world and see that all the prophecies of Rev13 can be easily done with today's technology.
It will be easy for this to take place to control the world wide monetary system-global commerce online banking and internet commerce are merely the introductory stage of what is to come.
Ecclesiastes 3:15
Whatever is has already been,
and what will be has been before;
and God will call the past to account

modern day folks say - History repeats itself ...

In short the Great trib is coming and followed by Jesus at the end of it he will be on earth ruling over the peoples of earth- either you serve him or you don't and if you don't you perish in the lake of fire eternally being reminded that a simple belief in Jesus being God makes the difference between blissful

life and a life of torment

 

[jgr]

That assumes there were no humans ever born before Abraham and we know that is not true
Besides the promise of God to Abraham is that Abraham would be the father of many nations which includes a lot of people

Anyone born before Abraham is long since dead. But his genes lived and live on. The genetic record of Israel in the Old Testament is of inveterate intermarriage and blood intermixture with surrounding nations (and the idolatry and apostasy which accompanied).

"Hundreds of millions" ten years ago is many more today, as the accompanying links confirm.

Have you had your DNA tested? You could be a Jew unaware.

 

[jgr]

But I do contend that, aside from simple ignorance of what the scriptures actually say, is is rank unbelief.

So "many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians" and "think otherwise" are guilty of rank unbelief.

Riiiiight. Obviously Justin Martyr thought exactly as you do.

Only in the dispensational mind.

I'll let our readers formulate their own verdicts on that one.

 

[BABerean2]

That type of view is one of the reasons I believe Preterism is false. It tries to say that prophecies that have not yet happened, have already happened .

Christ was a "partial-preterist" in the Olivet Discourse, and I am the same.

I have been studying the movement toward a one world government for over 20 years now.
We are only one crisis away right now.

You must be confusing Full-Preterism and Partial-Preterism.

The disciples asked two questions in the Olivet Discourse and Christ answered two questions in the Olivet Discourse.

The first question is emphasized below.


Mat 24:1　 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.　
Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.　

Signs of the End of the Age
Mat 24:3　 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?　


.

 

[Biblewriter]

Looked up T.C. Schmidt, Yale Teacher, recently did a work to show Jesus Was Born On December 25th, Real Big Smiles

His Daniel comentary is available for free download, with only 35 views, ill pass on his work

You believe when Jesus returns with the angels he will start a millennial kingdom on this earth?

This is just another sample of your sloppy scholarship. If you had actually read the article you referred to, you would have seen that T. C. Schmidt did not argue that Christ was born on December 25th. He translated an article from the early 200s, in which this argument was made.

And yes. I believe that when he comes, Jesus "will start a millennial kingdom on this earth," because the scriptures explicitly state this, in very many places. Only Revelation 20 explicitly states that this kingdom will last a thousand years, although it states this six times over. But a great many other scriptures describe this coming earthly kingdom in great detail, even going so far as to precisely define the borders of the land of Israel at that time, and specifying how it is to be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

[NeedyFollower]

This post is based on the false concept of "deserving" anything from Christ. The only thing we deserve, is punishment. Our relationship with Christ is based on grace, not on just rewards.

Actually I agree whole heartedly regarding what I deserve ..and that is not a point of theology having truly been "found" as it were although I am still working out my salvation ..the sanctification part. I try not to take the blood of God's most precious possession for granted and Jesus did say to whom much is given much is required ..again and always by His grace . I do not believe God saved us for our sake but for His sake and the grace He gave us ( not because of our righteousness because we have none ) but because of who He is . The grace that bringeth salvation has appeared to all men TEACHING us that ..etc. Paul told Timothy that he has known the holy scriptures from his youth which is able to make him wise unto salvation which is through Jesus Christ . Endeavor for the faith once delivered to the saints was written to BELIEVERS. Lay hold of eternal life ..exhort one another daily...etc , etc. Jesus tells the SAVED ..the believers to repent in Revelation .....Yes , we are saved by grace through faith which works by love. " Let the women learn to be keepers at home so that the word of God is not blasphemed ...Let the older women teach the younger women to love their children etc. Jesus says to go make disciples ..teaching them ....many are making prosolytes and selling assurance of salvation ..

 

[Truth7t7]

ABSOLUTELY!!
When Jesus returns he saves Israel from destruction and if he did not return all flesh would have died , but because he does come to earth to establish His Kingdom life is spared from total destruction
It would help your understanding if you relied on Gods Word instead of other peoples commentaries , here is scripture describing it :
Revelation 20
2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

The following are the martyrs that lived during the Great Trib
4.
Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

These are those who rejected Christ as savoir

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

After the 1000 years is over satan is released from the chains that prevented him from deceiving people during the 1000 year reign of Christ and he is allowed to go out to deceive people again - sort of a final purging of people who do not believe Christ is God

7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

After satan has deceived who he can after the 1000 years is over he is cast alive into the lake of fire -
then AFTER that is the Great White Throne judgment

Notice that everyone that has accepted Christ is NOT in the GWT judgment this is the combination of those in verse 5 with those who live during the 1000 year reign of Christ, the reference to saying if anyone's name was not found in the book of life they are cast into the lake of fire is applied to only those people as all the rest have already been raised to life to serve with Christ for the 1000 years

I disagree, Revelation 20:11-15 represents the final judgment of all that ha e ever lived.

 

[Truth7t7]

This is just another sample of your sloppy scholarship. If you had actually read the article you referred to, you would have seen that T. C. Schmidt did not argue that Christ was born on December 25th. He translated an article from the early 200s, in which this argument was made.

And yes. I believe that when he comes, Jesus "will start a millennial kingdom on this earth," because the scriptures explicitly state this, in very many places. Only Revelation 20 explicitly states that this kingdom will last a thousand years, although it states this six times over. But a great many other scriptures describe this coming earthly kingdom in great detail, even going so far as to precisely define the borders of the land of Israel at that time, and specifying how it is to be divided among the twelve tribes of Israel.

You stated you believe when Jesus Christ returns with the angels, he will start a 1000 year earthly kingdom.

The scripture clearly teaches that at the return of Jesus Christ with the angels, this will be the time of "Final Judgment"

Matthew 25:31-46 in verses 31-32 we see the Lord returned in glory with the angels, sits upon the throne, Nations gathered for judgment.

Matthew 25:46 shows the end of this judgment at the return of Jesus Christ. "Eternal Damnation" for the wicked, and "Eternal Life" for the righteous, the "Final Judgment Complete" eternity has begun, "No Earthly Millennium"

Matthew 25:34
"The Eternal Kingdom"!

 

[Biblewriter]

You stated you believe when Jesus Christ returns with the angels, he will start a 1000 year earthly kingdom.

The scripture clearly teaches that at the return of Jesus Christ with the angels, this will be the time of "Final Judgment"

Matthew 25:31-46 in verses 31-32 we see the Lord returned in glory with the angels, sits upon the throne, Nations gathered for judgment.

Matthew 25:46 shows the end of this judgment at the return of Jesus Christ. "Eternal Damnation" for the wicked, and "Eternal Life" for the righteous, the "Final Judgment Complete" eternity has begun, "No Earthly Millennium"

Matthew 25:34
"The Eternal Kingdom"!

You are using your interpretation of the meaning of a few scriptures as an excuse to deny the explicit statements of a great many ore scriptures.

 

[Truth7t7]

You run from the direct post #377 with the hope it will be buried in the mix

Matthew 25:31-46 exposes the false teaching of A future millennium at the return of Jesus Christ.

Verses 31-32 The Lord returns in glory wth the holy angels, the Nations are gathered before the throne for judgment. verse 34 The Eternal Kingom is presented.
verse 46 "The Final Judgment" is seen, as the wicked enter "Eternal Punishment" and the righteous "Eternal Life"

Your Earthly Millennium At the return of Jesus Christ Is 100% Gone!

Eternity Begins, "The Eternal Kingdom"!

 

[Biblewriter]

You run from the direct post #377 with the hope it will be buried in the mix

Matthew 25:31-4 exposes the false teaching of your future millennium at the return of Jesus Christ

This passage is about the beginning of that kingdom. It is not the judgment of the righteous dead or the judgment of the wicked dead. it is a judgment of living nations.

 

[Truth7t7]

This passage is about the beginning of that kingdoseebt is not the judgment of the righteous dead or the judgment of the wicked dead. it is a judgment of living nations.

Matthew 25:31-46 is the final judgment of all that have lived, a parallel teaching of the GWT judgment seen in Revelation 20:11-15

Verse 31-32 Jesus returns with the angels in glory, sits upon the throne, all nations are gathered, verse 46 "Eternal Judgment" is seen, wicked "Eternal Punishment" righteous "Eternal Life" there is only one time of future judgment to eternal punishment, or eternal life, when the book of life is open

Writer your teaching of a future Millennium at the return of Jesus Christ is destroyed!

You can claim whatever ya want, Gods words are very simple and easy to understand.

Your bias in a future Earthly Millennial Kingdom keeps you from this truth in my opinion, no other scripture is needed to prove your teaching false, right there in Matthew 25:31-46 in a nutshell