Debating the Existence of the Pre-Trib Rapture

[Biblewriter]

The following is typical of Dispensational preaching on Romans chapter 11.

If you have never heard anyone change the text of Romans 11:26, then listen up.
How many times is the word "so" omitted, during the discussion?
How many times is the word "then" used during the discussion?

He also fails to mention that the "covenant" in Romans 11:27 is the New Covenant, fulfilled for all races of people at Calvary.

.

This is simply more of your misrepresentation, I listened to the entire video, and he did not quote the entire verse even once. Without a single exception every statement he made was absolutely correct. This scripture indeed says, and clearly says, that "all Israel will be saved." And that is the part of the verse he was expounding. He also stated, with precise accuracy, How it will come to pass that all Israel will be saved. God does indeed, in Ezekiel 20, clearly say that He will purge the rebels from among them, and in Isaiah 4 that every one of them ghat will be left will "be called holy."

Your arguments are meaningless. The scriptures simply could not even possible be more clear that the nation of Israel will again be gathered into its ancient homeland, and, after a purging out of all the rebels among them, all the rest will repent with bitter weeping, and all of them will be saved.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes.
At the Judgement of every individual who has ever lived.
Correct.

This is made clear by the prophecy in 1 Corinthians 15:54b-56...Death will be no more. Paralleled by Revelation 21:4.....there will be an end to Death.
Note that the people alive at the end of the Millennium, whose names are in the Book of Life, will not taste death, but be transformed directly into immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:51.
Rapture believers love to make out that this applies to them, but that idea is about as pretentious and unbelievable as Scotty beaming them up!

We agree, Im aware those living at the second advent will be caught up, and dead resurrected as you stated, death is swallowed up.

"Recap" So at the second advent we have the resurrection of all John 5:28-29 and the final judgment of all, revelation 20:11-15 the book of life is open, only once, then eternity begins.

Future second advent, resurrection, final Judgment book of life open, eternity begins for all, lake fire wicked, eternal kingdom righteous?

do you agree with the this?

 

[keras]

So if He did not intend these promises to continue to stand under the New Covenant, He would have been lying when he promised to do these things.

God's promises stand.
They have simply been extended to include a wider group. Since the Jews rejected Jesus, it is now all the faithful Christian peoples of every race, nation and language that are the heirs of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:29
My favorite Bible verse is Colossians 1:12 We give joyful thanks to the Father, who has made us fit to share in the heritage of God's people in the Kingdom of Light.

 

[jgr]

The fact remains that unconditional promises were made in the Old Testament, not only to Abraham, but to the physical land of Israel, to the nation of Israel, to the sub-nations of Judah and Ephraim, to each of the twelve tribes of Israel, to the sons of Zadok, and to the families of the houses of David, Nathan. Levi, and Shimei. And God stressed the absolute reliability of His promises as the basis for our faith.

The fact that the Old Covenant was replaced by a new one, did not and can not nullify even one promise made to people who lived before that change was made. Every one of these promises still stands inviolate. Otherwise, God would be a liar. For at the time He made these promises, He knew that He would change the covenant. So if He did not intend these promises to continue to stand under the New Covenant, He would have been lying when he promised to do these things.

Your reasonings cannot do away with or eliminate even one of these promises. When you claim that God cancelled them, you are denying the only basis for our faith, the only hope for our salvation.

If the decayed, vanished, Old Covenant carnal promises are the basis of your faith, you're in BIG trouble.

You continue to reject plain Scripture regarding the Old and New Will and Testament.

You've involuntarily put your finger on the dispensational conundrum -- the refusal to believe God's declaration that His New Will and Testament, fulfilled in Christ and in those who are in Christ, is better, and contains better promises; than what it completely and totally replaces. You insist on continuing to return to the "weak and beggarly elements" of spiritual immaturity.

If a benefactor named you with certain bequests in his will, then created a new will before he died, replacing them with bigger and better bequests for you, would you consider him a liar for not delivering on the original bequests?

Sounds like you would if you didn't believe that the new bequests were bigger and better.

As you obviously don't believe God about His New Bigger Better Bequests.

 

[Truth7t7]

Romans 11:5-7
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This is simply more of your misrepresentation, I listened to the entire video, and he did not quote the entire verse even once. Without a single exception every statement he made was absolutely correct. This scripture indeed says, and clearly says, that "all Israel will be saved." And that is the part of the verse he was expounding. He also stated, with precise accuracy, How it will come to pass that all Israel will be saved. God does indeed, in Ezekiel 20, clearly say that He will purge the rebels from among them, and in Isaiah 4 that every one of them ghat will be left will "be called holy."

Your arguments are meaningless. The scriptures simply could not even possible be more clear that the nation of Israel will again be gathered into its ancient homeland, and, after a purging out of all the rebels among them, all the rest will repent with bitter weeping, and all of them will be saved.

Your teaching that all "National Israel" will be saved is 100% false.
There is the remnant jew that will be saved by grace election added to the church, "The Rest Are Blind"!

 

[Truth7t7]

I can not blame you for thinking this, for it is widely reported and believed, and you seem to be relatively new to this forum, so have not seen, or at least have not responded to, the many posts on this subject that have been made in the past. So I do not accuse you of willful deception, as another who is well aware of all this and continues to post his disinformation, along with phrasing his complaints in language intended to deceive.

A pre-trib rapture was taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any signficant length) that has survived to the present day. That is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies." This is believed to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D. We know about older Christian comments on prophecy, but all of them that have survived to the present day are only a few sentences long, at most. The only older one of any significant length that we now about, which was by Papias, has been completely lose, except for ten short quotations published by later writers. So our knowledge of the history of Christian interpretation of Bible prophecy begins with Irenaeus.

As we begin to examine this document, we first find the words:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1)

Here we find a clear teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture. But Irenaeus also wrote:

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 35, paragraph 1)

Here we see this same ancient writer just as explicitly saying that “the resurrection of the just” “takes place after the coming of Antichrist.” This appears to flatly contradict his other statement. But is this correct? First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist. He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)

Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.

Irenaeus very clearly put the church in at least the first part of the time of Antichrist, as we can see in the following:

“‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 26, paragraph 1)

This is the only place Irenaeus used the word “church” in regard to these events, other that the place where he explicitly said “the Church shall be suddenly caught up” before the “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” But he used the word “we,” which certainly seems to have the same meaning, here:

“But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)

These last two statements make it very clear that Irenaeus placed the rapture at least after “the coming of Antichrist.” We have already noticed that in statements about events before the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he used the words “the church” and “we.” But in his statements about persecutions during the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he changed this terminology. We remember that in his statement about the church being “suddenly caught up,” he called the tribulation “the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” He used the term “the righteous” again when he spoke of the faithful in that time in this statement:

“For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 2)

We remember that Irenaeus used this same term in speaking of the beginning of the kingdom, saying, “bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” He also used a second term for these faithful ones during that time, calling them “saints” in the following statements:

“Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: ‘And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom.’ Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: ‘The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,’ that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 3)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 4)

We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.”

Why are the exact words Irenaeus used significant? Because a doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture requires words like “the church” or “we” in statements about the godly during events up to and through the time “the Church shall be suddenly caught up.” But when speaking of times after the rapture, the proper (and scriptural) terms for godly people are “the righteous” or “saints.” Again, the doctrine requires a different term for those who are resurrected at the time of the rapture, for that resurrection includes Old Testament believers who were thus not members of the church. And this is exactly what Irenaeus did, calling the resurrection by its scriptural name of “the resurrection of the just.”

Now some will want to discount any claim that Irenaeus was intentionally using well selected terminology in these statements. But he used the same precision in his comments about recognizing the Antichrist when he appeared. For, as we have already noticed, when he was speaking of true believers he said “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him” But when he was speaking of men who might be deceived by the Antichrist, he stuck strictly with the scriptural terminology by referring to them as “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,” as we see in the following statements:

“Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, end of paragraph 1)

“These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, beginning of paragraph 2)

Thus we see that Irenaeus used precise terminology that clearly distinguished between these two groups. He again used the scriptural words “those,” along with “ye” and “he,” rather than his own words, when speaking of the need for the inhabitants of the land of Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

“But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 2)

Finally, Irenaeus made one more statement that touches this matter, saying:

“Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 27, paragraph 1)

In this passage Irenaeus implies a simultaneous judgment-day for unbelievers and resurrection of believers. Some will assume that this proves he was not saying that the rapture will be before the tribulation. But this is in full accord with the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. For there will be people who turn to God during the time of the tribulation, and they will be persecuted and slain for their faith. These will be resurrected at approximately the same time as when Christ comes in power and glory to judge the world. (The scriptures do not say their resurrection happens when He comes. But Revelation 20:4 says “they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So we know that their resurrection takes place at least approximately the same time as He comes.


So now we are faced with two choices. We can either assume that Irenaeus was exceedingly careless as to his wording, and simply did not mean what he said. Or we can assume that the precision of his wording was not a mere coincidence, but that he chose his exact words carefully and with intent. In that case, we are forced to conclude that Irenaeus meant exactly what he said when he wrote:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’"

So we see that the history of Christian interpretation of Bible prophecy begins with a rapture before the great tribulation. This has been identified by modern scholars in the writings od at least four ancients, one medieval and almost two dozed post-reformation Christian writers, many of which van be easily read in the relatively new book titled "Dispensationalism Before Darby, by William C. Watson, Lampion Press, ISBN # 978-1-942614-03-6 . And Watson missed several other writers whom I have previously posted in this forum, at places such as:

The Margaret MacDonald Lie The Margaret MacDonald lie.
What the early church actually taught What the early church actually taught. part 1
Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings
Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings

"against heresies" book V, chapter 29, par 1

You bend the words of Iranaeus, he clearly states "In The End" The church will be caught up!

He clearly states the tribulation is the last contest for the righteoous believer to "Overcome"

Yes he sees the church present during the future tribulation!

Just as any ahmillennialist believes.

 

[jgr]

This is simply more of your misrepresentation, I listened to the entire video, and he did not quote the entire verse even once. Without a single exception every statement he made was absolutely correct. This scripture indeed says, and clearly says, that "all Israel will be saved." And that is the part of the verse he was expounding. He also stated, with precise accuracy, How it will come to pass that all Israel will be saved. God does indeed, in Ezekiel 20, clearly say that He will purge the rebels from among them, and in Isaiah 4 that every one of them ghat will be left will "be called holy."

Your arguments are meaningless. The scriptures simply could not even possible be more clear that the nation of Israel will again be gathered into its ancient homeland, and, after a purging out of all the rebels among them, all the rest will repent with bitter weeping, and all of them will be saved.

In reference to verse 26:

At 5:14, "then" is heard. At 6:06, 6:09, and 6:16, "when" is heard in the attempt to explain when "then" is.
"So" is never heard.

 

[BABerean2]

This is simply more of your misrepresentation, I listened to the entire video, and he did not quote the entire verse even once. Without a single exception every statement he made was absolutely correct. This scripture indeed says, and clearly says, that "all Israel will be saved." And that is the part of the verse he was expounding. He also stated, with precise accuracy, How it will come to pass that all Israel will be saved. God does indeed, in Ezekiel 20, clearly say that He will purge the rebels from among them, and in Isaiah 4 that every one of them ghat will be left will "be called holy."

Your arguments are meaningless. The scriptures simply could not even possible be more clear that the nation of Israel will again be gathered into its ancient homeland, and, after a purging out of all the rebels among them, all the rest will repent with bitter weeping, and all of them will be saved.

Does it matter if we quote only part of a verse to make our doctrine work?


Mat_22:40　 .................................... hang all the law and the prophets.


We can completely change the meaning of a verse by only quoting part of it.
Romans 11:26 is a prime example.


Rom 11:23　 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
　
Rom 11:24　 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?　


Rom 11:25　 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.　(See Luke 21:24-28, to see when the times of the Gentiles ends.)

Rom 11:26　 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:　

Rom 11:27　 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.



Leaving out the Greek word "houto" in Romans 11:26 completely changes the meaning of the passage.

What is the "manner" by which they will be saved?

That manner is found in verses 23 and 24.

They will be saved by being grafted back into the Olive Tree, through faith in Christ.
The Olive Tree is a symbol of the New Covenant Church made up of Israelites (Romans 11:1) and Gentile branches grafted together into the same Olive Tree.

Were all of the Israelites "partially blinded" as Dispensationalists try to infer or are part of the Israelites blinded and part of them are not, as is found in Romans 11:1-5?

If all of the Israelites were "partially blinded" then Romans 11:1 could not be true, and therefore the Dispensationalists interpretation of the passage is wrong.

Throughout the passage Paul speaks of two different groups of Israelites, one faithful and one not faithful.

When did the deliverer come out of Zion?
He came to deliver Jacob and all races of people about 2,000 years ago, when He was sacrificed at Calvary.

What is the "covenant" in verse 27?
It is the same New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.

Both you and the speaker had a chance to acknowledge the New Covenant in verse 27, and both of you ignored it to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

.

 

[Biblewriter]

"against heresies" book V, chapter 29, par 1

You bend the words of Iranaeus, he clearly states "In The End" The church will be caught up!

He clearly states the tribulation is the last contest for the righteoous believer to "Overcome"

Yes he sees the church present during the future tribulation!

Just as any ahmillennialist believes.

I went in detail through what Irenaeus said, to clearly demonstrate what he was saying. He indeed said that this would be "in the end," but then went on to say that "when" this happens, "there will be great tribulation." This is unquestionably a time sequence, placing the "suddenly caught up" before the "great tribulation," which he taught would last three and a half years.

Indeed, Jerome wrote in the fifth century that, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.) Here, as in the case of Irenaeus, we see a clearly statedsequence of events, all of which are stated to take place "at the end of the world." But also note that, in the fifth century, the great Jerome called this "the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church."

The concept that a group of people that the scriptures call "righteous" will be in contest with the forces of evil during the the great tribulation is standard pre-tribulation doctrine. For every pre-tribber whose works I have ever studied, has taught that after the church is removed from this earth, others will come to faith.The scriptures call this group "righteous," and clearly teach that they will face the warth of the Antichrist and his forces.

 

[Biblewriter]

The doctrine that all of the nation of Israel will be brought back to its ancient homeland, and there brought to repentance, after having the rebels urged from its midst, is not my doctrine. it is explicitly stated in more scriptures than can be counted. Although only Revelation 20 states that the ensuing earthly kingdom will last a thousand years, something on the order of a fourth to a third of the entire Old Testament is devoted to this promised restoration, and to the details surrounding the process by which this will be brought to pass. Those who deny this are denying a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures. And thus, all such are giving more credence to their interpretations of the meanings of a relatively small number of scriptures (which never actually say what they imagine them to mean,) than to the explicit statements of a much larger number of other scriptures.

It is simply not true that these promises have been retracted. The New Testament introduces a new people, a new group, that is distinctly different from that Old Testament group, and gives that new group much better promises. But it never, even once, so much as hints at an idea that those previous promises, made to a different people, will not actually be kept.

 

[jgr]

The doctrine that all of the nation of Israel will be brought back to its ancient homeland, and there brought to repentance, after having the rebels urged from its midst, is not my doctrine. it is explicitly stated in more scriptures than can be counted. Although only Revelation 20 states that the ensuing earthly kingdom will last a thousand years, something on the order of a fourth to a third of the entire Old Testament is devoted to this promised restoration, and to the details surrounding the process by which this will be brought to pass. Those who deny this are denying a very large number of explicitly stated scriptures. And thus, all such are giving more credence to their interpretations of the meanings of a relatively small number of scriptures (which never actually say what they imagine them to mean,) than to the explicit statements of a much larger number of other scriptures.

It is simply not true that these promises have been retracted. The New Testament introduces a new people, a new group, that is distinctly different from that Old Testament group, and gives that new group much better promises. But it never, even once, so much as hints at an idea that those previous promises, made to a different people, will not actually be kept.

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

What do those verses mean?

 

[Biblewriter]

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

What do those verses mean?

The Old Covenant has indeed passed away. But the New Testament very clearly says that "the promises" still pertain to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites."


1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; Romans 9:1-4

 

[jgr]

The Old Covenant has indeed passed away. But the New Testament very clearly says that "the promises" still pertain to Paul's "countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites."


1 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; Romans 9:1-4

Everything in the list of "pertains", including the promises, pertains to the old covenant.

There are two types of old covenant promises -- messianic and carnal.

The messianic are fulfilled in the New Will and Testament, in Christ and those who are in Christ. (Galatians 3:16,29; 2 Corinthians 1:20; Hebrews 1:1-2)

The carnal vanished with the vanished old covenant, but many of them actually were fulfilled in the early old covenant era e.g. land, peace, every "good thing". (Joshua 21:43-45)

Nowhere in the New Will and Testament do we find a promise of the fulfillment of old covenant carnal promises.

 

[keras]

True believers are the Israel of God

Many ask, Who are God's chosen people in the earth today? Who are His elect? Are they of the natural seed of the children of Israel? Are they the "Jews" according to their ethnic lineage? Or are God's chosen people now the Christian believers of Jesus Christ?

It is commonly believed that the church must be raptured into heaven so that God can renew His separate program with the natural Jew. But is this truth? Is He going to redeem them in their present state, then remarry them?
Will the O.T. Law: the Mosaic Covenant which was only temporary, Hebrews 7:12 & 8:l3, be able to somehow in the future, disannul the Abrahamic covenant, of which the church is now the only partaker through the Seed of Abraham: Jesus Christ?

It has been well said, that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. The whole Bible teaches only ONE acceptable seed, ONE family, ONE all-encompassing covenant, only ONE Israelite people as the true Covenant "children of the living God." Romans 9:26, Ephesians4:4-6

The New Covenant promised seed has been sown and is risen to replace the Old Covenant chosen seed and its unfruitful, ineffective, but once necessary life has passed out of God's plan, just as surely as have works of the Old Testament Law.

Ancient Israel, is a type of the "first man Adam, the old man": the natural body. Whereas the new Israel of Christianity is of the "last Adam, the new creation", a spiritual body.
The firstborn was Jacob, typifying Israel of the flesh- Exodus 4:22; Hosea11:1. The second born: Jesus, was of the Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:12-14. In Genesis 25:23 we also see two nations, a natural ethnic Israel and a spiritual true; Israel of God.

Israel of old was chosen as the firstfruits nation of the fallen Adamic seed to receive and carry the revelation of the creative, redemptive, promises of God Almighty. Isaiah 43:10; Romans 3:2 It was revealed to them long ago: I the Lord am holy and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine. Leviticus 20:26
God later divorced ethnic Israel on the grounds of whoring after idols. Jer. 3:1-11 and will marry another woman: the true Christian believers. Matthew 21:43, Isaiah 62:1-5

The faithful and obedient children in the true "Israel of God" are being prepared and made ready, Revelation 19:7…prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
In perfect holy union, the bride, the Lamb's wife, shall be called "the holy people, the redeemed of the Lord”. 1 Peter 2:9-10, Revelation 5:9-10

False teaching is that God's chosen are still the natural Jew and that everything for us as a Christian is in heaven; that Jesus has to hurry up and rapture us out of the earth so that He can renew His program and make another covenant with the chosen Jewish nation. But, the truth of Bible teaching is that Christian believers are His only chosen and that only through Abrahams Seed, the true Christian Church, shall all the families of the earth he blessed, then we had better stop and re-evaluate this issue. The serious mistake for far too long, has been--that much of the Bible's truth concerning Israel is part of another Covenant and for another day or another people.

Friends, that is actually "another gospel." Galatians 1:8-9 Ref; Ross McKay

 

[Truth7t7]

I can not blame you for thinking this, for it is widely reported and believed, and you seem to be relatively new to this forum, so have not seen, or at least have not responded to, the many posts on this subject that have been made in the past. So I do not accuse you of willful deception, as another who is well aware of all this and continues to post his disinformation, along with phrasing his complaints in language intended to deceive.

A pre-trib rapture was taught in the very oldest Christian commentary on Bible prophecy (of any signficant length) that has survived to the present day. That is the last twelve chapters of the very famous five volume work by Irenaeus, titled "Against Heresies." This is believed to have been published between the years 186 and 188 A.D. We know about older Christian comments on prophecy, but all of them that have survived to the present day are only a few sentences long, at most. The only older one of any significant length that we now about, which was by Papias, has been completely lose, except for ten short quotations published by later writers. So our knowledge of the history of Christian interpretation of Bible prophecy begins with Irenaeus.

As we begin to examine this document, we first find the words:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons ‘as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance—in fact, as nothing;’ so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 1)

Here we find a clear teaching of a pre-tribulation rapture. But Irenaeus also wrote:

“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule;” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 35, paragraph 1)

Here we see this same ancient writer just as explicitly saying that “the resurrection of the just” “takes place after the coming of Antichrist.” This appears to flatly contradict his other statement. But is this correct? First, we need to notice that Irenaeus did not say that “the resurrection of the just” takes place after the reign of Antichrist. He only said it “takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule.” To see the significance of this, we need to consider another statement from this same ancient document:

“But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)

Here we find first, a distinct statement that Antichrist would reign for three years and six months. But also a distinct statement that this three years and six months would be after “this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world.” Thus we see that Irenaeus placing “the resurrection of the just” “after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule,” was not saying the rapture would be after the three and a half year reign of Antichrist. Rather, he placed the rapture at the beginning of that three and a half year reign. That is, he was saying that the time of “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be” was the three and a half year reign of Antichrist.

Irenaeus very clearly put the church in at least the first part of the time of Antichrist, as we can see in the following:

“‘And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.’ It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 26, paragraph 1)

This is the only place Irenaeus used the word “church” in regard to these events, other that the place where he explicitly said “the Church shall be suddenly caught up” before the “tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” But he used the word “we,” which certainly seems to have the same meaning, here:

“But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is: the name, however, is suppressed, because it is not worthy of being proclaimed by the Holy Spirit.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 30, paragraph 4)

These last two statements make it very clear that Irenaeus placed the rapture at least after “the coming of Antichrist.” We have already noticed that in statements about events before the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he used the words “the church” and “we.” But in his statements about persecutions during the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, he changed this terminology. We remember that in his statement about the church being “suddenly caught up,” he called the tribulation “the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.” He used the term “the righteous” again when he spoke of the faithful in that time in this statement:

“For that image which was set up by Nebuchadnezzar had indeed a height of sixty cubits, while the breadth was six cubits; on account of which Ananias, Azarias, and Misaël, when they did not worship it, were cast into a furnace of fire, pointing out prophetically, by what happened to them, the wrath against the righteous which shall arise towards the [time of the] end. For that image, taken as a whole, was a prefiguring of this man’s coming, decreeing that he should undoubtedly himself alone be worshipped by all men.” (“Against Heresies”, Book V, chapter 29, paragraph 2)

We remember that Irenaeus used this same term in speaking of the beginning of the kingdom, saying, “bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom.” He also used a second term for these faithful ones during that time, calling them “saints” in the following statements:

“Daniel too, looking forward to the end of the last kingdom, i.e., the ten last kings, amongst whom the kingdom of those men shall be partitioned, and upon whom the son of perdition shall come, declares that ten horns shall spring from the beast, and that another little horn shall arise in the midst of them, and that three of the former shall be rooted up before his face. He says: ‘And, behold, eyes were in this horn as the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things, and his look was more stout than his fellows. I was looking, and this horn made war against the saints, and prevailed against them, until the Ancient of days came and gave judgment to the saints of the most high God, and the time came, and the saints obtained the kingdom.’ Then, further on, in the interpretation of the vision, there was said to him: ‘The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall excel all other kingdoms, and devour the whole earth, and tread it down, and cut it in pieces. And its ten horns are ten kings which shall arise; and after them shall arise another, who shall surpass in evil deeds all that were before him, and shall overthrow three kings; and he shall speak words against the most high God, and wear out the saints of the most high God, and shall purpose to change times and laws; and [everything] shall be given into his hand until a time of times and a half time,’ that is, for three years and six months, during which time, when he comes, he shall reign over the earth.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 3)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’ Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 4)

We need to notice that both of these statements are about the three and a half year reign of Antichrist, and thus speak of a time after Irenaeus placed the “resurrection of the just.”

Why are the exact words Irenaeus used significant? Because a doctrine of a pre-tribulation rapture requires words like “the church” or “we” in statements about the godly during events up to and through the time “the Church shall be suddenly caught up.” But when speaking of times after the rapture, the proper (and scriptural) terms for godly people are “the righteous” or “saints.” Again, the doctrine requires a different term for those who are resurrected at the time of the rapture, for that resurrection includes Old Testament believers who were thus not members of the church. And this is exactly what Irenaeus did, calling the resurrection by its scriptural name of “the resurrection of the just.”

Now some will want to discount any claim that Irenaeus was intentionally using well selected terminology in these statements. But he used the same precision in his comments about recognizing the Antichrist when he appeared. For, as we have already noticed, when he was speaking of true believers he said “But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him” But when he was speaking of men who might be deceived by the Antichrist, he stuck strictly with the scriptural terminology by referring to them as “those,” “these,” “they,” and “them,” as we see in the following statements:

“Moreover, another danger, by no means trifling, shall overtake those who falsely presume that they know the name of Antichrist. For if these men assume one [number], when this [Antichrist] shall come having another, they will be easily led away by him, as supposing him not to be the expected one, who must be guarded against.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, end of paragraph 1)

“These men, therefore, ought to learn [what really is the state of the case], and go back to the true number of the name, that they be not reckoned among false prophets. But, knowing the sure number declared by Scripture, that is, six hundred sixty and six, let them await, in the first place, the division of the kingdom into ten; then, in the next place, when these kings are reigning, and beginning to set their affairs in order, and advance their kingdom, [let them learn] to acknowledge that he who shall come claiming the kingdom for himself, and shall terrify those men of whom we have been speaking, having a name containing the aforesaid number, is truly the abomination of desolation.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 30, beginning of paragraph 2)

Thus we see that Irenaeus used precise terminology that clearly distinguished between these two groups. He again used the scriptural words “those,” along with “ye” and “he,” rather than his own words, when speaking of the need for the inhabitants of the land of Judea to flee when they see the abomination of desolation.

“But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 25, paragraph 2)

Finally, Irenaeus made one more statement that touches this matter, saying:

“Has the Word come for the ruin and for the resurrection of many? For the ruin, certainly, of those who do not believe Him, to whom also He has threatened a greater damnation in the judgment-day than that of Sodom and Gomorrah; but for the resurrection of believers, and those who do the will of His Father in heaven.” (“Against Heresies,” Book V, chapter 27, paragraph 1)

In this passage Irenaeus implies a simultaneous judgment-day for unbelievers and resurrection of believers. Some will assume that this proves he was not saying that the rapture will be before the tribulation. But this is in full accord with the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture. For there will be people who turn to God during the time of the tribulation, and they will be persecuted and slain for their faith. These will be resurrected at approximately the same time as when Christ comes in power and glory to judge the world. (The scriptures do not say their resurrection happens when He comes. But Revelation 20:4 says “they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” So we know that their resurrection takes place at least approximately the same time as He comes.


So now we are faced with two choices. We can either assume that Irenaeus was exceedingly careless as to his wording, and simply did not mean what he said. Or we can assume that the precision of his wording was not a mere coincidence, but that he chose his exact words carefully and with intent. In that case, we are forced to conclude that Irenaeus meant exactly what he said when he wrote:

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’"

So we see that the history of Christian interpretation of Bible prophecy begins with a rapture before the great tribulation. This has been identified by modern scholars in the writings od at least four ancients, one medieval and almost two dozed post-reformation Christian writers, many of which van be easily read in the relatively new book titled "Dispensationalism Before Darby, by William C. Watson, Lampion Press, ISBN # 978-1-942614-03-6 . And Watson missed several other writers whom I have previously posted in this forum, at places such as:

The Margaret MacDonald Lie The Margaret MacDonald lie.
What the early church actually taught What the early church actually taught. part 1
Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings
Dispensationalism in Ancient Christian Writings

In post #329 you once again disregard my response, Iranaeus in book V, chapter 29, par 1 above you highlight in red?

In post #329 you disregard the "Fact" the last contest the church will be faced with is "The Great Tribulation" they will be present and "Overcome"!

You run from this fact, because your Darby/ Scofield pre-trib rapture is 100% dead!

Iranaeus was a historical Ahmillenialist.

All the Apostolic Church fathers were Ahmillenialist Justin Martyr 100-165, Iranaeus 202, Hippolytus 170-235

 

[seventysevens]

What do you mean when you use the word "Israel"?

Are you referring to a whole modern nation of people?

Or, are you referring to a group of modern people based on a sample of their DNA?
If you are, how much of Jacob's DNA is required to make a modern person a part of what you consider to be "Israel"?

.

Well I did not expect that type of question , I will explain,. When I read up on DNA some time ago it was shown that all humans had like 99% the same DNA and it is only the 1% that makes the difference in all ethnic groups. We are ALL created in Gods image; and animals or sea life is not. It is not relevant to God if someone has 60% DNA of ancient Israel and someone else has 1%. The only relevance is that God fulfills his promises and this includes the promise given to Abraham.

God could have chosen another people other than Israel but because HIS strength is magnified in the weak/oppressed; God chose the people called Israel to magnify Himself. One of the reasons that God chose the lamb as the symbolic sacrifice is because the Egyptian rulers hated sheep and shepherds as they believed them to be the lowest of the low and Egypt severely oppressed Israels people. So God used the oppressed people and the very thing Egypt hated to overcome Egypt and rule over all people(Christ the Lamb) in the eternity. For Passover people were to take a lamb , a male, the lamb must be perfect -under their care and feed and care for the lamb a couple weeks before killing it for a sacrifice and the blood to be placed on the doorway and interestingly enough the top ,left and right sides of the doorway where the blood was placed forms a cross as a preview of the great sacrifice which would later come through Jesus on the cross.

Gods plan is to create a family , and gives them the free choice if they want to be a part of the family of God or choose to go their own way thinking that they do not need God-just as lucifer had done.

Ancient Israel had the OT scriptures and including the OT prophets that told them in great detail that not only there will be a messiah that will come with power and great glory, they also gave hundreds of detailed prophecies that the messiah would come and sacrifice his own life on the cross so everyone could spend eternity with God. But with Israel's pride they would only accept the scriptures that spoke of the messiah coming in power and great glory and ignore the scriptures that taught in detail about the sacrifice the messiah would make for them in being crucified on the cross. In the future after Jesus returns and has established His Kingdom on earth people will notice the scars on his hands ,feet and side and ask him what happened , how did he get those scars. Jesus will answer them telling them that he got those scars in the house of his friends as an eternal reminder to all that he was willing to lay down his life so that everyone who loved him shall have eternal life.

To the point - everyone including the Jews that died rejecting Jesus made their choice and has to accept what that choice has brought them. The fable falsehood that some believe that just because a person may have a bloodline to ancient Israel Jews automatically guarantees they have a reserved place in Jesus kingdom on earth and heaven is 100% false as they also have to accept Christ Yeshua as the sacrificial lamb and as Lord and savoir of their personal life just as everyone else has to do.

Just go into any web forum that has orthodox Jew and tell them that Jesus Reigns and they will respond with hatred of Jesus just as those that crucified him did as the greater percentage of the Jewish community still reject Jesus , the ones that accept Jesus are among the messianic Jews .

The antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and send his armies to kill all of Israel people - simply put if ALL Jewish people would repent and accept Jesus they too would be saved just as any Gentile can be saved if they repent and accept Jesus. Ancient and modern Israel that rejected Jesus as messiah end up in the same place as satan goes , same goes for any Gentile that rejects Jesus.

So the simplicity is that all of Israel can be saved if they are willing to accept Jesus as messiah and personal savoir but as we see the scripture teaches that there will be Jews that reject Jesus all the way through generations to the time of the Great trib , during the Great Trib some will come to the knowledge of truth that Jesus is their messiah and accept him and those that do not will perish. Replacement theology is totally false. Ancient Israel rebelled against God and God pulled his hand of protection away allowing the Jews to be removed from their land and spread to other countries and Gentiles took control of the land.Now that the times of Gentile control of that land is over and the Jews are back in their land, own their homeland and are in control of their land this is prophecy fulfilled. As an example though it is overly simplified ; if there were 1000 Jews in Israel with 500 accepting Jesus as messiah and 500 who reject Jesus the 500 that reject die the 500 who accept live it can be said that all of remaining Israel are saved . In a nutshell it is all about repentance , turn back to the Lord God and be restored.

 

[seventysevens]

And how many times is the Greek word "houto" translated as "then", which is the change Dispensationalists often make to Romans 11:26?

I have heard John Hagee change the word "so" to the word "then" during a television sermon.

Dr. David Jeremiah left out the word "so", when quoting the verse during a television sermon.

Both are a corruption of the text, intended to make the Two Peoples of God doctrine work.

.

Reminds me of a Seinfeld episode when Kramer goes into a bank and is greeted by the employees with them saying ...hey there! , howdy ! , whats up !, how ya doin ? . As there was a sign posted saying that if the employees did not say hello the bank manager would pay $100. Kramer tells the manager he deserves to get the $100 because no employee said hello.

I looked up the scripture and found that various translations used the words ..so. so then, when , as in this manner , and others and the intended meaning of the verse was not changed
Pre trib simply means before the Great Trib and Jesus stated that you can Escape the Great trib if you pray and seek Him to be counted worthy to escape.

That would mean a persons lifestyle must be in accordance to what Jesus said it needs to be. People cannot live as a drunkard , fornicator , gay/lesbian etc etc and be counted as worthy , Pre trib is not a product of dispensationalism any more than repent and be baptized is. It originated directly from the Messiah himself and has carried on from there
Luke 21:36
"pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, "

Dozens of translations all use the words -worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, "
It is Only the false teachings that says there is no escape

 

[jgr]

Well I did not expect that type of question , I will explain,. When I read up on DNA some time ago it was shown that all humans had like 99% the same DNA and it is only the 1% that makes the difference in all ethnic groups. We are ALL created in Gods image; and animals or sea life is not. It is not relevant to God if someone has 60% DNA of ancient Israel and someone else has 1%. The only relevance is that God fulfills his promises and this includes the promise given to Abraham.

God could have chosen another people other than Israel but because HIS strength is magnified in the weak/oppressed; God chose the people called Israel to magnify Himself. One of the reasons that God chose the lamb as the symbolic sacrifice is because the Egyptian rulers hated sheep and shepherds as they believed them to be the lowest of the low and Egypt severely oppressed Israels people. So God used the oppressed people and the very thing Egypt hated to overcome Egypt and rule over all people(Christ the Lamb) in the eternity. For Passover people were to take a lamb , a male, the lamb must be perfect -under their care and feed and care for the lamb a couple weeks before killing it for a sacrifice and the blood to be placed on the doorway and interestingly enough the top ,left and right sides of the doorway where the blood was placed forms a cross as a preview of the great sacrifice which would later come through Jesus on the cross.

Gods plan is to create a family , and gives them the free choice if they want to be a part of the family of God or choose to go their own way thinking that they do not need God-just as lucifer had done.

Ancient Israel had the OT scriptures and including the OT prophets that told them in great detail that not only there will be a messiah that will come with power and great glory, they also gave hundreds of detailed prophecies that the messiah would come and sacrifice his own life on the cross so everyone could spend eternity with God. But with Israel's pride they would only accept the scriptures that spoke of the messiah coming in power and great glory and ignore the scriptures that taught in detail about the sacrifice the messiah would make for them in being crucified on the cross. In the future after Jesus returns and has established His Kingdom on earth people will notice the scars on his hands ,feet and side and ask him what happened , how did he get those scars. Jesus will answer them telling them that he got those scars in the house of his friends as an eternal reminder to all that he was willing to lay down his life so that everyone who loved him shall have eternal life.

To the point - everyone including the Jews that died rejecting Jesus made their choice and has to accept what that choice has brought them. The fable falsehood that some believe that just because a person may have a bloodline to ancient Israel Jews automatically guarantees they have a reserved place in Jesus kingdom on earth and heaven is 100% false as they also have to accept Christ Yeshua as the sacrificial lamb and as Lord and savoir of their personal life just as everyone else has to do.

Just go into any web forum that has orthodox Jew and tell them that Jesus Reigns and they will respond with hatred of Jesus just as those that crucified him did as the greater percentage of the Jewish community still reject Jesus , the ones that accept Jesus are among the messianic Jews .

The antichrist will break his covenant with Israel and send his armies to kill all of Israel people - simply put if ALL Jewish people would repent and accept Jesus they too would be saved just as any Gentile can be saved if they repent and accept Jesus. Ancient and modern Israel that rejected Jesus as messiah end up in the same place as satan goes , same goes for any Gentile that rejects Jesus.

So the simplicity is that all of Israel can be saved if they are willing to accept Jesus as messiah and personal savoir but as we see the scripture teaches that there will be Jews that reject Jesus all the way through generations to the time of the Great trib , during the Great Trib some will come to the knowledge of truth that Jesus is their messiah and accept him and those that do not will perish. Replacement theology is totally false. Ancient Israel rebelled against God and God pulled his hand of protection away allowing the Jews to be removed from their land and spread to other countries and Gentiles took control of the land.Now that the times of Gentile control of that land is over and the Jews are back in their land, own their homeland and are in control of their land this is prophecy fulfilled. As an example though it is overly simplified ; if there were 1000 Jews in Israel with 500 accepting Jesus as messiah and 500 who reject Jesus the 500 that reject die the 500 who accept live it can be said that all of remaining Israel are saved . In a nutshell it is all about repentance , turn back to the Lord God and be restored.

The Abrahamic genome is present in virtually every member of the human race.

Abraham lineage
“And indeed, the number of people in the world today with the “Abrahamic Genetic Signature” is too large to count precisely. A reasonable estimate is in the hundreds of millions.”

That article was written over ten years ago. Since that time, the sophistication and accuracy of genetic testing has steadily improved, enabling recognition at ever increasing breadth and depth. Today, the estimate is almost certainly a multiple of the given estimate of hundreds of millions, and will only continue to increase over time in reflection of the underlying reality of complete permeation. This is in contrast to dispensational claims of only 15 - 20 million Jews worldwide.

DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
“With DNA testing becoming so accessible, the number of people discovering their Jewish roots is growing exponentially.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jonent...-jewish-links-in-unusual-places/#4dd298461206


How then does God distinguish between Jews and Gentiles if everyone qualifies ethnically as a Jew?

The way He always has distinguished His people -- through belief, faith, and obedience; with ethnicity completely irrelevant.

Romans 2
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

 

[keras]

Luke 21:36
"pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass,
Dozens of translations all use the words -worthy to ESCAPE all these things that shall come to pass, "
It is Only the false teachings that says there is no escape

However, my Revised English Bible says: Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming.....
That this is correct, is proved by Luke 21:35 that says:...that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over.
So it is a wrong assumption to think verse 36 means a escape by rapture to heaven.
This kind of supposition and conjecture is typical of rapture believers, who; having no actual scriptural proof of their theory, must grab at anything, however tenuous, to prop up their belief.
There is no rapture to heaven for anybody, that idea conflicts with all that the Bible says about the end times.

 

[Biblewriter]

In post #329 you once again disregard my response, Iranaeus in book V, chapter 29, par 1 above you highlight in red?

In post #329 you disregard the "Fact" the last contest the church will be faced with is "The Great Tribulation" they will be present and "Overcome"!

You run from this fact, because your Darby/ Scofield pre-trib rapture is 100% dead!

Iranaeus was a historical Ahmillenialist.

All the Apostolic Church fathers were Ahmillenialist Justin Martyr 100-165, Iranaeus 202, Hippolytus 170-235

You are incorrect in saying that I disregarded your response. I answered it by pointing out that I had alrready treated that objection in my post to which you were responding. So in truth, you are the one that disregarded my response. But that is a detail.

Your alleged "facts" are interpretations, not facts. And your claim that Justyn Martyr, Irenaeus, and Hippolytus, and all the other early Christian writers were amillennial is exactly the opposite of the truth.

The earliest Christian commentator on Bible prophecy known to modern scholars was Papias, who is thought to have written between 110 and 140 A. D. All of his writings have been lost, but Eusebius said concerning him:

“The same writer gives also other accounts which he says came to him through unwritten tradition, certain strange parables and teachings of the Saviour, and some other more mythical things. To these belong his statement that there will be a period of some thousand years after the resurrection of the dead, and that the kingdom of Christ will be set up in material form on this very earth.” (“The Church History,” by Eusebius, book III, chapter XXXIX, sections 12-13.)

The next Christian commentator on prophecy that we know about was Justyn, who is called Justin Martyr, because he died as a martyr. He said:

“And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place.” (“Dialogue With Trypho,” by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXXI.)

Again, Justyn said:

“And Trypho to this replied, ‘I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? Or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies?’
“Then I answered, ‘I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place..." ((Dialogue with Tyrpho, by Justin Martyr, chapter LXXX.)

The next one we know about was Irenaeus, who said concerning “the resurrection of the just:”

“It behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign.” (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXXII, section 1.)

And in another place, Irenaeus said:

“‘And he will cause a mark [to be put] in the forehead and in the right hand, that no one may be able to buy or sell, unless he who has the mark of the name of the beast or the number of his name; and the number is six hundred and sixty-six,’ that is, six times a hundred, six times ten, and six units. [He gives this] as a summing up of the whole of that apostasy which has taken place during six thousand years.
“For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: ‘Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works.’This is an account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXVII, sections 2-3)

Tertullian said:

“But we do confess that a kingdom is promised to us upon the earth, although before heaven, only in another state of existence; inasmuch as it will be after the resurrection for a thousand years in the divinely-built city of Jerusalem... We say that this city has been provided by God for receiving the saints on their resurrection, and refreshing them with the abundance of all really spiritual blessings, as a recompense for those which in the world we have either despised or lost; since it is both just and God-worthy that His servants should have their joy in the place where they have also suffered affliction for His name's sake... After its thousand years are over, within which period is completed the resurrection of the saints, who rise sooner or later according to their deserts there will ensue the destruction of the world and the conflagration of all things at the judgment:” (“Against Maricon,” by Tertullian, book III, chapter XXV.)

Hippolytus said:

"And so it is absolutely necessary for six-thousand years to be fulfilled, so that the Sabbath rest may come, the holy day, in which God rested from all his works which he began to do. The Sabbath is a model and an image of the coming kingdom of the saints, when the saints shall coreign with Christ, when he arrives from heaven, as also John in his Apocalypse describes. For a day of the Lord is as a thousand years. And so since in six days God made all things, it is necessary for six thousand years to be fulfilled. For they are not yet fulfilled, as John says, ‘Five have fallen, but one is,’ such is the sixth millennium, ‘the other has not yet come,’ saying ‘the other’ he describes the seventh millenniumnin which there shall be rest.” (“Commentary on Daniel,” by Hippolytus, 23.4-23.6.)

Commodianus said “Of the First Ressurection:”

“They shall come also who overcame cruel martyrdom under Antichrist, and they themselves live for the whole time, and receive blessings because they have suffered evil things; and they themselves marrying, beget for a thousand years. There are prepared all the revenues of the earth, because the earth renewed without end pours forth abundantly... he who is evil is hedged up in torment, for the sake of the nourishment of the righteous. But from the thousand years God will destroy all those evils.” (“The Instructions of Commodianus,” by Commodianus, chapter 24.)

Lactantius, in speaking of “the Almighty,” said:

“But He, when He shall have destroyed unrighteousness, and executed His great judgment, and shall have recalled to life the righteous, who have lived from the beginning, will be engaged among men a thousand years, and will rule them with most just command... Then they who shall be alive in their bodies shall not die, but during those thousand years shall produce an infinite multitude, and their offspring shall be holy, and beloved by God; but they who shall be raised from the dead shall preside over the living as judges... About the same time also the prince of the devils, who is the contriver of all evils, shall be bound with chains, and shall be imprisoned during the thousand years of the heavenly rule in which righteousness shall reign in the world, so that he may contrive no evil against the people of God.” (“The DivineInstitutes,” by Lactantius, chapter 72.)

And the "Epistle of Barnabas," whose true author and dat are not known with certainty, said:

“The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: ‘And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.’Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, ‘He finished in six days.’ This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, will be as a thousand years. Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. ‘And He rested on the seventh day.’ This meaneth: when His Son, coming [again], shall destroy the time of the wicked man, and judge the ungodly, and change the-sun, and the moon, and the stars, then shall He truly rest on the seventh day. Moreover, He says, ‘Thou shalt sanctify it with pure hands and a pure heart.’ If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, Behold, therefore: certainly then one properly resting sanctifies it, when we ourselves, having received the promise, wickedness no longer existing, and all things having been made new by the Lord, shall be able to work righteousness. Then we shall be able to sanctify it, having been first sanctified ourselves.” (Epistle of Barnabas, chapter XV)

In addition to these, Jerome said that Apollinaris follows “this view,” (“Lives of Illustrious Men,” by Jerome, chapter XVIII.) and Dionysius said many thought that “a certain composition by Nepos,” “demonstrated incontestably that there will be a (temporal) reign of Christ upon the earth.” In the following paragraph Dionysius added that “in the Arsinoitic prefecture... this doctrine was current long ago, and caused such division, that schisms and apostasies took place in whole churches.” (“On the Promises,” by Dionysius, part 1, paragraphs 1 and 2.)

This last statement is proof that the doctrine of a temporal “reign of Christ upon the earth” was not only taught, but widely circulated, “long” before the mid third century. (Dionysius is thought to have been Bishop of Alexandria from about 247-265.)