Who wrote what?

JohannineScholar

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When looking at a book or document how many people want to know what type of pen was used? Or was a pencil used.
The Author of the Book of Hebrews is stated in the very first verse.
God, He wrote the Book of Hebrews.
Does it really make a difference if Paul or Luke or ______ penned it?
If you're not interested in such questions, that is fine, they are just interesting things to ponder. But why comment if you aren't interested? Why not keep your non-interest to yourself? And no, God didn't "write" Hebrews. That is the dictation theory of inspiration which virtually no-one (other than Muslims concerning the Qu'ran) believe.
 
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mark kennedy

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When looking at a book or document how many people want to know what type of pen was used? Or was a pencil used.
The Author of the Book of Hebrews is stated in the very first verse.
God, He wrote the Book of Hebrews.
Does it really make a difference if Paul or Luke or ______ penned it?
While the author is unknown it would have had to have been written by an Apostle or someone very close to them, Barnabas certainly qualifies. He was a Levite as was John Mark who wrote the Gospel according to Mark. It matters because the church preserved this book very carefully which means whoever wrote it was held in high regard, associated with the Apostolic witness.
 
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JohannineScholar

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Barnabas certainly qualifies. He was a Levite as was John Mark who wrote the Gospel according to Mark.
No, Barnabas doesn't. It was written by someone close to a witness, not a witness (Heb. 2:3). The Mark who wrote the Gospel of Mark was not associated with John Mark before Jerome and is still distinguished from him by the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and other churches.
 
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mark kennedy

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No, Barnabas doesn't. It was written by someone close to a witness, not a witness (Heb. 2:3). The Mark who wrote the Gospel of Mark was not associated with John Mark before Jerome and is still distinguished from him by the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic and other churches.
Yes actually he does, so how easy it is to be emphatic. John Mark being the author has long unbroken tradition. He was Barnabas cousin, and wrote it under the guidance of Peter. He was, like Baranabas a Levite and apparently had some training as a scribe. How do you think the early church learned to preserve their sacred writing like Levites had for centuries. Barnabas was one of the original 70 and accompanied Paul on his first missionary journey. Barnabas was imminently qualified to write this book and the fact that he didn't sign his work is consistant with Levitical traditions.
 
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mark kennedy

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No, the Apostle John didn't write the Gospel of John and was long dead from martyrdom when the fourth gospel was written.
I think the church knows it's own sacred writings far better then modern skeptics. The traditional teaching that the Apostle John wrote the Gospel of John still stands up to close scrutiny.
 
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Radagast

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No, the Apostle John didn't write the Gospel of John and was long dead from martyrdom when the fourth gospel was written.

Even the latest possible date for the Gospel of John is within John's lifetime.
 
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mark kennedy

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Yes. Only I provided evidence in support.
No you offered very general sources that prove nothing. I been through this a dozen times and you guys have in common is a feverish need to deny John wrote the Gospel according to John. You are unanimously immune to source material and one anecdotal evidence and you think it refutes 2000 years of Christian scholarship. These pedantic posts just seeth with indignation, which is little more then melodrama. My favorite was the guy who wanted to argue John the Baptist wrote Revelations. These arguments are ill founded, hypernodernist, chew toys. I've never seen one stand up to close scrutiny.
 
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JohannineScholar

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No you offered very general sources that prove nothing. I been through this a dozen times and you guys have in common is a feverish need to deny John wrote the Gospel according to John. You are unanimously immune to source material and one anecdotal evidence and you think it refutes 2000 years of Christian scholarship. These pedantic posts just seeth with indignation, which is little more then melodrama. My favorite was the guy who wanted to argue John the Baptist wrote Revelations. These arguments are I'll founded, hypernodernist, chew toys. I've never seen one stand up to close scrutiny.
Well, I'm not surprised you've never seen it stand up to close scrutiny--your posts are so full of misconceptions and mistaken innuendos for a start. Would you spend time trying to discuss with someone like you? You're one hundred percent wrong, but you've already made this about motivations instead of evidence.
And no, I stated that the identification wasn't made before Jerome. The burden is on you to show otherwise, as one can't prove a negative. You didn't make any verifiable or testable statement. I did. Sure, it was brief--that's called testing the waters. Seeing if you are serious about discussion. You could have replied with a counter fact, or you could have mentioned the name of someone before Jerome who did identify them, or you could have denied that John Mark and Mark the Evangelist have traditionally been distinguished by the RC and EO churches, forcing me to provide evidence. Instead you make very false accusations about motives you couldn't possibly know. So of course you have never seen the argument stand up to scrutiny--because you don't seem to know how to have a discussion on the matter that would put the various views under scrutiny. And I suppose you've never read one of the major books on the subject.
 
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mark kennedy

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Well, I'm not surprised you've never seen it stand up to close scrutiny--your posts are so full of misconceptions and mistaken innuendos for a start. Would you spend time trying to discuss with someone like you? You're one hundred percent wrong, but you've already made this about motivations instead of evidence.
And no, I stated that the identification wasn't made before Jerome. The burden is on you to show otherwise, as one can't prove a negative. You didn't make any verifiable or testable statement. I did. Sure, it was brief--that's called testing the waters. Seeing if you are serious about discussion. You could have replied with a counter fact, or you could have mentioned the name of someone before Jerome who did identify them, or you could have denied that John Mark and Mark the Evangelist have traditionally been distinguished by the RC and EO churches, forcing me to provide evidence. Instead you make very false accusations about motives you couldn't possibly know. So of course you have never seen the argument stand up to scrutiny--because you don't seem to know how to have a discussion on the matter that would put the various views under scrutiny. And I suppose you've never read one of the major books on the subject.

This is where you abandon the subject matter and plunge head long into an intellectually bankrupt fallacy fest. It will descend into ever smaller circles till there is nothing left except ad hominem taunts. Now if you confident in your source material qoute, source and defend it. I've spent excessive time researching the background and authorship of the Scriptures and this kind of self referential pontification is what's wrong with liberal theology. What is especially telling is the false indignation, yet it invariably the heart of the emphasis. I've seen your source material even though you didn't bother to cite it and it's unpersuasive.
 
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mark kennedy

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A lot of my source material has never appeared in English. But there you go making assumptions again.
Not really assuming much I'm just convinced that the traditional authorship according to John is legitamate, reliable and accurate. I have tracked down the source material from time to time and concluded the modernist view is fundamentally flawed.
 
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JohannineScholar

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Not really assuming much I'm just convinced that the traditional authorship according to John is legitamate, reliable and accurate. I have tracked down the source material from time to time and concluded the modernist view is fundamentally flawed.
What source material have you tracked down? What sources have you read?
 
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mark kennedy

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What source material have you tracked down? What sources have you read?
Enough, and I am more then willing to revisit them again when I'm sure your aware of them. You've given me no indication of that and I'm not interested in fielding arguments that don't recognize or are otherwise oblivious to those vital sources. I've been down that rabbit hole before and it goes in circles.
 
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mark kennedy

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Okay, I don't believe you are familiar with the sources, and you don't believe I am. There it ends.
So be it, maybe we can revisit the topic when we both have a more open attitude.
 
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And no, God didn't "write" Hebrews. That is the dictation theory of inspiration which virtually no-one (other than Muslims concerning the Qu'ran) believe.

Mainstream Protestant view: We confess that this Word of God was not sent nor delivered “by human will,” but that “men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God...” (Belgic Confession)

Catholic view: God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit." ... The inspired books teach the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures." (Catholic Catechism 105-107)
 
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