6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

[Radagast]

doesn't really point at a specific place on the spectrum defined by the English words.

Another way of defining the intoxication spectrum is:

1. jocose
2. verbose
3. morose
4. bellicose
5. lachrymose
6. comatose

The MC's job was to keep the party at stage 1 or 2. He would have failed in his task if anybody had gotten as far as stage 3.

 

[Albion]

I can only assume they didn't want to present Jesus as making people drunk.

But the common perception that people like myself grew up with was that the people actually were drunk, this discussion here not withstanding. Teachers taught that. This doesn't mean your speculation is wrong, but still....

And I wouldn't go so far as to call it a "mistranslation" -- just an imperfect translation.

Very well, but I understood you to say that they used the wording they did in order to avoid scandal. That suggests a deliberate decision to mistranslate.

The phrase "having drunk freely" only really gets misunderstood if you think "wine" means "grape juice."

Yes, I was thinking that this issue we're discussing is a side issue and not critical to the real point the thread started with.

No. And that's because English has a range of words for "inebriated," with "tipsy" at one end, then "drunk," then "blotto." The Greek word really only tells us that people were affected by alcohol, and doesn't really point at a specific place on the spectrum defined by the English words.

Yeh. That's kinda what I was thinking, after having read what I could elsewhere about this.

 

[Goatee]

Does the OP drink alcohol? I bet he doesn't.

 

[Radagast]

Very well, but I understood you to say that they used the wording they did in order to avoid scandal. That suggests a deliberate decision to mistranslate.

"Mistranslate" is a bit harsh. Let's just say their view of what took place coloured their translation choices. To say "having drunk freely" is not, I think, the best translation, but it isn't wrong.

 

[chilehed]

Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus's Miracle Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):
.....
Conclusion:
Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!

This is total, unadulterated nonsense, and you believe it only because you were told so by some Bible-twisting ignoramus you were taught to trust. When the Bible talks about wine, it means wine: the fermented juice of grapes. There's not a single shred of evidence to support the absurd notion that Passover wine was unfermented, and indeed there are mountains of evidence to the contrary. For example, ancient amphorae of Passover wine from Italy that have residue of top-shelf fermented wine; we're not talking Mad Dog, we're talking Brunello di Montalcino.

Try telling a group of Orthodox Rabbis that Passover wine was really unfermented grape juice, and you'll get laughed out of the room.

 

[Goatee]

Can you imagine Jesus sitting there thinking that He had better make non - alcoholic wine?

No, neither can I.

 

[Goatee]

1 Timothy 5:23
23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.

 

[Tetra]

Wine is awesome, but I prefer beer. My favorite is craft beer from Ontario, specifically Wellington SPA. I could never really get into the "commercial" stuff, just tastes like crap to me.

 

[Ken Rank]

I believe a saint can drink today's wine and not be condemned. I believe in their ignorance, they would be saved. For Paul says you can drink anything. Granted, Paul is not telling us to tempt the LORD and drink known poisons. But see, that is just it. Alcohol is a poison and many Christians today do not realize that fact. So while it is lawful for certain Christians to drink today's wine (so as not to get drunk). If they learn that wine is a poison (like myself) and they know it can only lead to destruction and they socially drink it (despite their conscience condemning them), they are committing sin. But if they do not believe alcohol is in any way harmful and their conscience is clear 100%, then they are free to drink socially as long as they do not get drunk. Granted, in the Old Testament, there was no such liberty that we have in Christ. In the Old Testament, drinking strong wine would have been a sin.

Anyways, let's say you are enjoying a nice glass of wine at your local restaurant when you are approached by a fellow believer in Christ who says, "I am offended to see you drink that wine." "My brother used to look up to you for spiritual strength and now he has fallen back into alcoholism because of your public drinking here." What should you think, say or do?

Also, let's say a new believer is baptized and becomes a member of your church. While an unbeliever, he continuously abused drugs and alcohol. Upon becoming a Christian, he vowed to the Lord that he would never use drugs or alcohol ever again. The church (of which he is now a member) uses wine as a part of the Lord's Supper. What happens if this person stumbles back into alcoholism because of their use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's supper? What should the elders think, say or do at this point? Should they continue to use alcohol in the Lord's supper knowing it could make more alcoholics to potentially stumble again?

For drinking soberly and in the privacy of your own home is not the same thing as drinking openly where others could see you and potentially stumble.

So while it is lawful to drink soberly and in private, Jesus did not turn water into alcoholic wine as if he placed his seal of approval upon it for you to do the same in public. Jesus calls you to pick up your cross and to deny yourself in everything in your life. For we are supposed to be holy and separate from the world and not be associated with the unfruitful works of darkness. We are to dedicate our lives to Jesus in all things for our love for Him. Not out of some sense of legalism, but out of love. Love for God (Jesus) and love for your fellow brother.

Jason.. you know I have respect for you but you are imposing your own theology onto the text. The language says fermented, the examples throughout this thread show fermented... our messiah drank "wine" not grape juice. That doesn't mean you need to drink it, it simply means he did and since he did it isn't an issue. What is the issue is drunkenness, not remaining sober. We are repeatedly warned to remain sober, to have your senses intact, but we are not warned against wine. The only other warning given is to not allow what we do to cause another to stumble. But if I had a glass of wine and a brother saw me drink it... it is our religious CULTURE that has created the taboo environment that says what I am doing is wrong, not the bible.

 

[WannaWitness]

deleted post

 

[Barney]

The Greek word for "wine" gets used so much that there's no doubt what it means.

They generally mixed the wine with water, though (as 1 Timothy 5:23 mentions), so what they were drinking typically had the strength of light beer.

At parties like the one at Cana, the master of ceremonies generally controlled the strength of the mix, adding more wine if people were too quiet, and more water if they were getting too drunk.

No, the wine wasn't normally mixed with water. That's stupid. 1 Timothy 5:23 doesn't mention mixing water with wine. Even if it did, it's an exceptional circumstance, not a general circumstance. No one calls watered-down wine good. The Bible calls water-down wine a curse.

Am I the only one here who has read the Bible?

 

[Albion]

No, the wine wasn't normally mixed with water. That's stupid.

Sorry, but that is a fact attested to by just about every historian of the period and every Bible commentator. It may seem illogical to a modern-day person, but there were reasons (some of which have been mentioned in the course of this thread).

 

[Ken Rank]

Sorry, but that is a fact attested to by just about every historian of the period and every Bible commentator. It may seem illogical to a modern-day person, but there were reasons (some of which have been mentioned in the course of this thread).

There is the idea of watered down wine in Scripture (Isaiah 1:22 comes to mind... and that for particular reasons) but the fact remains.... watered down or not, the debate here is fermented or not and enough folks have proven fermented in this thread I don't need to repeat the verses.

 

[dms1972]

What time of year did the wedding at Cana occur? Just before Passover, late Mar, early Apr.. The grape harvest in Israel is in Jul/Aug. With no refrigeration how would the Israelites have kept fresh grape juice for 8-9 months? They could not. The "wine" they had was fermented wine not fresh grape juice.

But the thread is not about the wine they had been drinking before it ran out, its about the water that Jesus miraclously turned into wine.

 

[Barney]

Many translations of John 2:10 are trying to avoid scandal, I suspect -- more honest translations include:

NIV: Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink

You're right, many translations try to soften the verse by changing "drunk" to something like "drunk freely". But, the NIV is even worse. Being drunk doesn't necessarily mean "too much". The NIV inserts a value judgement which isn't in the verse. It's bad enough that some not-so-bright Christians run around insisting that if Jesus made wine, he's a wino (or whatever the evil Pharisees called Jesus for drinking). It's even worse when a Bible translation itself tells us that Jesus made wine for people who already had too much.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes they were.

Have you ever been really drunk? If you've ever been really drunk and taking another shot on top of that did you notice that it had any finer quality about it? In all likelihood the answer is no.

They could notice a difference in what they drank though. I think that speaks volumes about Christ's wine and how it's qualities pierced their intoxication to the point where they could realize how good what he made was.

Yes, I have been drunk before coming to Christ. I usually did not remember much of anything let alone what things tasted like.

Actually, one's senses are dulled when they drink. So food and drink cannot be fully enjoyed unlike when one is sober. See this source here. We live in a pleasure driven culture. However, the Bible warns that in the last days there will be those who are lovers of pleasures more than they are lovers of God (See 2 Timothy 3:1-9). So I would be very cautious so as to defend pleasures that can lead to our destruction and or to sin. For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink but it is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost (Romans 14:17)

Anyways, the major problem with your theory that the wedding attendees were drunk is that Jesus did not tell them to repent of their drunkenness. Jesus Himself said in the beginning of his ministry to repent. In other words, if what you say is true, that would be like Christ joining in a sinful practice of sacrificing to another god just so as to change the elements in the sacrifice without Him rebuking their sin for worshiping another God. For Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. He did not call them to remain in their sins with Him saying nothing (as if He was in silent approval of such things).

The Bible is clear that drunkenness is a serious sin that leads to spiritual death (Galatians 5:19-21). Jesus would not be glorified by doing a miracle admist such a sin whereby He did not correct them.

 

[Almost there]

Yes, gluttony is a sin, so should we starve?

I have to say that I chuckle inside a little when a church full of mostly obese people (and, sadly, there is a lot of that here in rural KY) say that drinking any alcohol is a sin. The bible is crystal clear on it. It's amazing any Christians even debate it. The ONLY exception is in the case of the "tyrany of the weaker brother", which even gets into eating meat.

But regarding the weaker brother, I've learned to NOT debate this with brothers who are dry alcoholics.

 

[Albion]

Anyways, the major problem with your theory that the wedding attendees were drunk is that Jesus did not tell them to repent of their drunkenness. Jesus Himself said in the beginning of his ministry to repent. In other words, if what you say is true, that would be like Christ joining in a sinful practice of sacrificing to another god just so as to change the elements in the sacrifice without Him rebuking their sin for worshiping another God. For Jesus came to call sinners to repentance. He did not call them to remain in their sins with Him saying nothing (as if He was in silent approval of such things).

I don't think we can enter into any Bible study by starting off with "Here's what Jesus should have done."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason.. you know I have respect for you but you are imposing your own theology onto the text. The language says fermented, the examples throughout this thread show fermented... our messiah drank "wine" not grape juice. That doesn't mean you need to drink it, it simply means he did and since he did it isn't an issue. What is the issue is drunkenness, not remaining sober. We are repeatedly warned to remain sober, to have your senses intact, but we are not warned against wine. The only other warning given is to not allow what we do to cause another to stumble. But if I had a glass of wine and a brother saw me drink it... it is our religious CULTURE that has created the taboo environment that says what I am doing is wrong, not the bible.

Not true. You are only saying what you think is right. I have deeply studied this topic more times then I care to count. The more I study, the more it sides with the truth of what I know.

Here are...

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)

16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

 

[Almost there]

There is an actual ad by Dr Welch calling his grape juice unfermented wine. Dictionary.com defines wine in it's third definition as fermented or unfermented. Historical documents on many who preserved grape juice had called this beverage that did not intoxicate you as wine. They talked about the preservation of grape juice.

In my old Assembly of God church back in the 1990's a funny thing happened. We were roughly 1,500 regular attenders split between two services. We were a tea totalling church, but one day the pastor was preaching on something that had nothing whatsoever to do with wine, but wine was mentioned in the verse he was reading, and it was friendly to wine. At the end of the sentence he stopped, looked up at the congregation, and said, "By the way, that is not grape juice. It's fermented wine.", and then continued reading the scripture and went on with his message.

The story of the water into wine nails it. And it nails it with the wine steward's comments to remove all doubt about what was in the jugs - even to this day.