When does the kingdom come

[jgr]

Hi jgr,

So are you telling me God made as `oops` when He made the nation of Israel?

Marilyn.

Marilyn,

I don't follow. Can you clarify?

 

[Oseas]

Christ was absolutely clear.
He declared the Kingdom of heaven to be at hand......there and then!!
He made it clear He was the King! ("of the Jews"; And he was crucified under that very title)
He was the Messianic (Davidic) king. "The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David" (Luke 1:32). "And his kingdom will last forever"

So there can not possibly be any newer dispensation/reformation!

He re-instituted the Davidic kingdom (in Matt 16:18), when He made Peter steward(Prime-Minister) to rule in his stead (See Isaiah 22:20-23)
He gives Peter the "keys-of-David" which WERE THE AUTHORITY TO RULE IN THE KING'S ABSENCE.
The parrallel between Matt 16:18 & Is 22:20-23 cannot possibly be coincidence.
It is clear to any Jew and to any Catholic

Christ builds his kingdom (Church) on his visible-prime-minister, Peter, and he has promised to be with it until the end of time.

But the rebels, who despise authority, search the scriptures (especially Revelations) in vain,.... for raptures and fantasies, for ethereal, invisible kingdoms of gnostic unrealities for their illuminati of "the saved".
A total contradiction to the Incarnational, enfleshment of a real God in real history bringing in a real (though at the same time spiritual) Kingdom.

They just demand a Democratic United States of "Me-&-Jesus".
Which is "Jesus;-as-defined-by-me"!
But, in the kingdom!....you submit; and you bow the mind, & bend the knee.

What is the point I wonder of addressing American Protestants, & their offspring, on this?
They Ransack Revelations for all kinds of novelty speculations.........and yet they wilfully fail to see the blindingly obvious,.....e.g. The Queen (Mother) of The Davidic King, Gebirah, Our-Lady, The New Eve, The Ark of God's Covenant...... blatantly and uncontovertibly depicted in 11:19 following through 12.
You cannot see or accept The Kingdom of God (His Church) until you read scripture without Protestant-Tradition-Goggles on.

Replying your post #188

You wrote: >>> He re-instituted the Davidic kingdom (in Matt 16:18), when He made Peter steward(Prime-Minister) to rule in his stead (See Isaiah 22:20-23) <<<

What you wrote is not true. JESUS is irreplaceable (Acts 4:12-13), do not you know of this? What the Apostle Peter would say about your post is that it is a cunningly devised fable (2Pe.1:18), do you understand?

Analysing Matt.16:18 - And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon THIS rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against IT. (In this verse THIS Rock is JESUS, not Peter, in that moment JESUS was speaking of Him Himself, of His ownself. Originally, Peter means LITERALLY stone, rock, this has nothing to do with the Rock that is JESUS since ANCIENT TIME (1Cor.1:v.4), so what you are saying is not true, it is an astute usurpation of that which refers itself exclusively to JESUS. What you wrote is TARES, sowed by the Devil.

Behold what was written to the Pastor of the Church in Philadelphia. Rev. 3:7-8:-
v.7 These things saith HE that is Holy, HE that is True, HE that hath the key of David, HE that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
v.8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my Word, and hast not denied my name. (He that said these things to the Pastor of Philadelphia, it is He who has the KEY of David and He is not Peter. THIS is who encarnates the true parallel between Matt.16:18&Is.22:20-23. What you wrote is a lie, it is tares)

You wrote: >>>He gives Peter the "keys-of-David" <<<

You have twisted Scriptures (Isa.22:v.22), trying to make a lie as true. Scripture says of only ONE KEY of the house of David, yea, only One Key, not several as you say erroneously. What you say is tares sowed by the Devil among the people.

You wrote: >>>,,,which WERE THE AUTHORITY TO RULE IN THE KING'S ABSENCE. The parrallel between Matt 16:18 & Is 22:20-23 cannot possibly be coincidence. <<<

Again, JESUS is irreplaceable (Acts 4:12-13). What you wrote is tares, sowed by the Devil among the people. About the “parallel between Matt.16:18 & Is.22:20-23”, you must know that in Scriptures there is no place for coincidences, all things are manifested by the Omniscience of the Most High and Almighty God; you know not Him, you only heard to speak about Him.

Matt.16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

What JESUS said to Peter means that He, JESUS, would go to give to Peter the keys (plural) of the kingdom of God, the expression KEYS here means SECRETS of the kingdom of God. JESUS said to the disciples: Matt.13:10-11
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the secrets/mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Matt.16:20-24
20 Then charged He his disciples that they should tell no man that He was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took Him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But JESUS turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Continues below

 

[Oseas]

Continuation of above

You wrote: >>> It is clear to any Jew and to any Catholic. Christ builds his kingdom (Church) on his visible-prime-minister, Peter, and he has promised to be with it until the end of time. <<<

What should be clear to any Jew and to any Catholic, is that the Judaism and Catholicism both will build the fifth and last SATANIC and Universal Empire, showed in the Great Statue by the prophet Daniel. (Dan.chap.2) There will be TWO satanic World Rulers in the earth. Rev.13:1-10 reveals who is the first who will rule the Antichrist's Empire. V.1 - And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a Beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

Let us interpret it, remembering that Scripture explains Scripture:

1 – This Beast rises up out of the sea. (O, by allegory, then he rises up out of the waters.)

1a- Waters? In Rev. 17:15, the angel of the Lord reveals unto us saying: “The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues”.(As we know, the harlot is a false church, btw a satanic church, and the harlot is a Gentile church).(Rev.17:1-7)

2 – The first satanic World Ruler of this time of Apocalypse, is showed as having seven heads and ten horns,... Rev. 17:9 reveals: “here is the mind which hath wisdom”.

2a. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman (the harlot) sitteth.(How to interpret this figuratively? We have two interpretations: 1-seven mountains and 2 -seven kings.

2ab - The seven mountains may be the seven regions of the earth in which the harlot sits (3 Americas, Africa, Europe, Asia and Oceania),

2ac - or the seven mountains of the Vatican City where the harlot sits. Aventine Hill (Latin, Aventinus; Italian, Aventino): Caelian Hill (Cælius, Celio) ;
Capitoline Hill (Capitolinus, Campidoglio) ; Esquiline ;Hill (Esquilinus, Esquilino);
Palatine Hill (Palatinus, Palatino); Quirinal Hill (Quirinalis, Quirinale) ; Viminal Hill (source:Weakpedia)

2b - And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. (How can we understand this mystery? As we know, each elected Pope chooses a nickname, they change their main name as do the prostitutes.)

2ba – Seven kings is a lineage of Popes, since was implanted this devilish system in the earth. .Five are fallen. Why? Because they are dead since ancient times. One exists (the sixth) and the seventh is not yet come. (I must say that the sixth already did die recently. Rest to be elected the seventh and last of this lineage of Popes)

The verse 5 reveals that this Gentile and satanic World Ruler will reign 42 months. (Yes, this first Beast will rule the satanic religious world Empire in the first period of 42 months, or 1.260 DAYS, or 3 years and half, AS IS REVEALED in the verse 5: and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. But one of his heads (South America) will be wounded to death, but his deadly wound will be healed: and all the world wondered after this Beast. 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Again. There will be TWO satanic World Rulers (two satanic Beasts) in the days ahead.

Rev.13:1-10 reveals who is the first to rule the satanic religious Empire of Antichrist. Rev. 13:11-18 reveals who is the second Beast which will rule the satanic religious world Empire of Antichrist (the feet of the Statue in part of iron and in part of clay.

V 11 - And I beheld ANOTHER Beast coming up out of the earth (earth is Israel, the dry land that appeared as it is written in Gen.1:9); and he had two horns like a lamb (he will manifest as a messiah of the Jews. JESUS spoke of the false messiah(John 5:43) and the Apostle Paul also spoke of him in 2The.2:1-12, and he (the false lamb) spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast (the Pope) before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound (South America) was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

These two satanic BEASTS, one a Gentile BEAST and another a Jewish BEAST, they both will establish a religious universal Empire, the fifth and last Empire of the earth, figured in the feet and ten toes of the Great Statue (symbol of the ten tribes of Israel).

And THIS FIFTH AND LAST EMPIRE WILL BE AN EPHEMERAL KINGDOM, a KINGDOM OF 7 YEARS ONLY.
IT WILL NOT BE A BELLIGERENT KINGDOM, BUT A RELIGIOUS AND SATANIC EMPIRE ruled by a Gentile Beast and a Jewish Beast. Catholicism and Judaism. THE SATANIC FALSE MESSIAH OF THE JEWS WILL ESTABLISH HIS THRONE IN JERUSALEM WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE ESOTERIC OR SPIRITUALIST JUDAISM AND ALSO WITH ALL NATION OF ISRAEL. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

THE FALSE MESSIAH OF THE JEWS (THE CLAY OF THE FEET OF STATUE) WILL MAKE A DEAL WITH THE BEAST OF ROME, THAT IS THE POPE, TO ESTABLISH THE RELIGIOUS UNIVERSAL EMPIRE in the days ahead.Be prepared.
EACH ONE WILL RULE THE EMPIRE FOR THREE YEARS AND HALF OR 42 MONTHS. THERE WILL BE PERSECUTIONS AGAINST THE TRUE BELIEVERS. (this was written in capital letter to emphasize the matter).

Rev. 2:26-29
26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
28 And I will give him the morning star.
29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[Oseas]

You wrote: >>>But the rebels, who despise authority, search the scriptures (especially Revelations) in vain,.... for raptures and fantasies, for ethereal, invisible kingdoms of gnostic unrealities for their illuminati of "the saved".<<<

These which you call of rebels are them unto whom was written in Revelation: These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars. And more: I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is.

You wrote: >>>A total contradiction to the Incarnational, enfleshment of a real God in real history bringing in a real (though at the same time spiritual) Kingdom.... <<<

There is not any contradiction to the incarnational, it is very clear that In the beginning (in JESUS) was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

You wrote: >>>They just demand a Democratic United States of "Me-&-Jesus". Which is "Jesus;-as-defined-by-me"! But, in the kingdom!....you submit; and you bow the mind, & bend the knee. What is the point I wonder of addressing American Protestants, & their offspring, on this? They Ransack Revelations for all kinds of novelty speculations.........and yet they wilfully fail to see the blindingly obvious,.....e.g. The Queen (Mother) of The Davidic King, Gebirah, Our-Lady, The New Eve, The Ark of God's Covenant...... blatantly and uncontovertibly depicted in 11:19 following through 12.<<<

You believe in cunningly devised fables, as said the Apostle Peter. You must know that Who knows the Word of God does not drink of the cup of demons as you do. The mother of JESUS died and are waiting the resurrection which will happen now in this last Day, that is this last millennium, the Millennium of Christ. The mother of Jesus, Mary, is not the new eve, as you say, this is tares that the Devil and Satan sowed and sows yet among the people through his ministers, mainly through the Beast of Rome. By the way, the church of Rome was not mentioned in Revelation because the church of Rome did fall in the hands, in the power, of the Devil. The church of Rome did prostitute herself with the demons, the sons of Devil, it is full of idolatries and witcheries.

The angel of the Lord said: Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot, the mother of the HARLOTS and abominations of the Earth, that sits upon many waters (the waters where the harlot sits, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues), with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. Now they will be cast into the lake of fire, the hell's fire This prophecy will fulfil now in this last millennium LITERALLY.

You wrote: >>>You cannot see or accept The Kingdom of God (His Church) until you read scripture without Protestant-Tradition-Goggles on.<<<

As JESUS said to Peter: Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

JESUS warned: But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the Day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

[Bible2+]

jgr said in post #237:

Yes; he knows those who have received His Son's gift of salvation and become His children; and He knows the remainder who have not.

What will He do with those who have not? They are still ethnic Israelites.

It depends on whether they're elect or not.

Romans 11:28 means that some non-Christians are the genetic descendants of Abraham (John 8:37, Acts 13:26, Romans 11:1, Acts 7:2, Acts 3:25). And some of these non-Christians are elect, and are beloved in part because of their genetic descent (Romans 11:28-29).

All the still-living, elect, non-Christian genetic Israelites who don't become Christians before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will become Christians (and so will become members of the Church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at His Second Coming (Romans 11:26) when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect genetic Israelites will eventually become Christians and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

 

[Bible2+]

Marilyn C said in post #239:

So are you telling me God made as `oops` when He made the nation of Israel?

All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All Christian Jews and Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Christian Jews and Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh" the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27) just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

 

[Marilyn C]

Marilyn,

I don't follow. Can you clarify?

Yes I should have been a bit clearer, bro, sorry. It seemed to me that you were not distinguishing between Israel & the Gentiles or for that matter the Body of Christ. Can you please explain what you believe concerning those 3 groups?

Thanks Marilyn.

 

[Marilyn C]

@Marilyn C please read my post below...I truly believe that it is the smoking gun to understanding the eschatological sequence.

When does the kingdom come

If I can get your assistance in scrutinizing my reasoning, it will be greatly appreciated.

Hi The Times,

Now before I comment on some points in your thoughts, I have a question. Can you please tell me what you think comes after your 2nd millennium?

I..............(M1)..................I(books).................(M2)..................I (?).......>

That is a quick timeline of how I see you are thinking. Is that so?

regards, Marilyn.

 

[jgr]

Yes I should have been a bit clearer, bro, sorry. It seemed to me that you were not distinguishing between Israel & the Gentiles or for that matter the Body of Christ. Can you please explain what you believe concerning those 3 groups?

Thanks Marilyn.

From the evidence provided by genetic science, the entire population of earth now qualifies ethnically as Israel, because at least some amount of Abraham's DNA is part of every individual. Thus the distinction between Israel and Gentiles no longer exists genetically. The remaining salient distinction is spiritual; of earth's some 7.3 billion inhabitants who are now all ethnically Israel, some 30% or less are believers in Christ, i.e. are the Body of Christ; and the remaining 70% or more are unbelievers in Christ.

What will God ultimately do with the 70% or more, representing some 5+ billion people, who are unbelievers, but are ethnically Israel. Will He begin by slaying 2/3 of them? (Zechariah 13:8-9)

Or will He deal with each person as He always has, based solely on the criteria of belief or unbelief, with ethnicity never a criterion, and no people of God other than those of faith and obedience i.e. His Church?

 

[The Times]

Hi The Times,

Now before I comment on some points in your thoughts, I have a question. Can you please tell me what you think comes after your 2nd millennium?

I..............(M1)..................I(books).................(M2)..................I (?).......>

That is a quick timeline of how I see you are thinking. Is that so?

regards, Marilyn.

Yes, that is so. Thankyou for breaking it down in simple format, much appreciated.

The 2nd millennium is eternal, it is timeless, it is the Nexus of God.

6On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7yet there will be continuous day! Only the LORD knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light. (Zechariah 14:6-7)

This describes a timeless eternity of the new earth and the new heaven, which is the Nexus of God. This realm will not be cyclic like the day and night we have in our present realm, but it will be continuous, as if time stood still, hence the timeless eternal Nexus of God. The light will never stop shinning, because it will not be from the Sun, but from God himself, for God will be our light.

Zechariah versus above are ratified by the following versus in the Revelation of Jesus Christ

There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5)

And also.....

The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp. (Revelation 22:23)

So just like it is declared in Zechariah 14:6-7 ....

6On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7yet there will be continuous day! Only the LORD knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light.

There is no natural sources of light, like the Sun during the day or the lamp during the night, but the Lord knows how this continuous Light will be, because God will be that Light and man will dwell with God.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5)

The 2nd millennium is post books being opened and post Judgement of the Dead and post when the last enemy death is defeated. It must therefore continue indefinitely without end, like a timeless Nexus, that is nothing will age, nothing will decay and nothing will die.

 

[Oseas]

All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All Christian Jews and Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Christian Jews and Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh" the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27) just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

You wrote: >>> ,... Romans 9:6-8 means not all Jews are elect ... <<<

Yes, not all Jews will be saved. Meditate in these verses:

John 1: 11 - 12
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

JESUS said to the Jews: John 5:43
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another (an imposter, an usurper) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders (The Jews will aclaim the false messiah (Rev.13:11-18) as the same manner they preferred Barabbas, instead JESUS).

The consequences:
2 Thes.1-13
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be REVEALED, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, (as whether was a messiah) shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be REVEALED, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth (the Word), and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, (believed not in JESUS) but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

 

[Marilyn C]

From the evidence provided by genetic science, the entire population of earth now qualifies ethnically as Israel, because at least some amount of Abraham's DNA is part of every individual. Thus the distinction between Israel and Gentiles no longer exists genetically. The remaining salient distinction is spiritual; of earth's some 7.3 billion inhabitants who are now all ethnically Israel, some 30% or less are believers in Christ, i.e. are the Body of Christ; and the remaining 70% or more are unbelievers in Christ.

What will God ultimately do with the 70% or more, representing some 5+ billion people, who are unbelievers, but are ethnically Israel. Will He begin by slaying 2/3 of them? (Zechariah 13:8-9)

Or will He deal with each person as He always has, based solely on the criteria of belief or unbelief, with ethnicity never a criterion, and no people of God other than those of faith and obedience i.e. His Church?

Hi jgr,

`Give no offense, either to the Jews or to the Greeks, (Gentiles) or to the Church of God,..` (1 Cor. 10: 32)

That is God`s distinction bro. He knows and I`ll leave that to Him.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Oseas]

All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All Christian Jews and Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Christian Jews and Gentiles are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh" the apostle Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26) and some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27) just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

You wrote: >>>Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27)<<<

WE need to meditate more deeply the verse you cited. The verse 27 says:
Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (Who are this remnant? This has nothing to do with genetic, but to receive JESUS and believe in his name)

Isaiah prophesied by the Spirit of Christ which was in him; the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of prophecy, so in his vision Isaiah did see that the Jews would not receive JESUS as a Messiah, as it was said by the Apostle John:
John 1:11-12
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him (here is the remanant), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

Now let us see:
JESUS said to the Jews: John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. (O yes, But as many as received him (here is the remanant), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name)

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. (All Jewish man who rceived not JESUS as a Messiah, neither believed in His name, remained as a son of Devil and a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction for ever.

 

[Bible2+]

Oseas said in post #253:

JESUS said to the Jews: John 8:44 - Ye are of your father the devil . . .

That was said only to nonelect Jews, and would also apply to nonelect Gentiles. For there are elect Jews and elect Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). So it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians so that on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

Oseas said in post #253:

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. (All Jewish man who rceived not JESUS as a Messiah, neither believed in His name, remained as a son of Devil and a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction for ever.

The vessels of wrath are not only nonelect Jews, but also nonelect Gentiles.

God doesn't love everyone, for He hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18) because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of His mercy so He might eternally make known His mercy, glory and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of His character to be known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all non-Christians of all times are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth to witness the suffering of non-Christians in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

 

[Marilyn C]

Yes, that is so. Thankyou for breaking it down in simple format, much appreciated.

On that day the sources of light will no longer shine, 7yet there will be continuous day! Only the LORD knows how this could happen. There will be no normal day and night, for at evening time it will still be light. (Zechariah 14:6-7)

This describes a timeless eternity of the new earth and the new heaven, which is the Nexus of God. This realm will not be cyclic like the day and night we have in our present realm, but it will be continuous, as if time stood still, hence the timeless eternal Nexus of God. The light will never stop shinning, because it will not be from the Sun, but from God himself, for God will be our light.
.

Hi The Times,

Had you realised that in Zech. 14 : 6 - 7 it is referring to when the Lord Himself comes to earth. His glory will make the evening bright. Then we read further and find out that those who come against Him their flesh shall dissolve while they are on their feet. (v. 12) Then further on we see that those nations who are left who have come up against Jerusalem, if they do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King them they will get a plague upon them.

None of that is the New heavens & New earth. Time to think again, bro. Marilyn

 

[jgr]

Romans 11:28 means that some non-Christians are the genetic descendants of Abraham (John 8:37, Acts 13:26, Romans 11:1, Acts 7:2, Acts 3:25).

According to contemporary genetic science, corroborated by the Jewish scientific community, the entire human race are genetic descendants of Abraham.

And some of these non-Christians are elect, and are beloved in part because of their genetic descent (Romans 11:28-29).

No non-Christians can be elect for any reason, ethnic or otherwise. “Elect” is reserved in NT Scripture exclusively for those who are in and of Christ, and for Christ Himself. (Matthew 24:24, Matthew 24:31, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, Colossians 3:12, 1 Timothy 5:21, 1 Peter 2:6, et al)

The expression “all Israel” in Romans 11:26 is a repetition of only one other NT occurrence, that of Romans 9:6, where it refers unmistakably to spiritual Israel, i.e. the children of God and the children of promise. It is this spiritual “all Israel” who is saved in Romans 11:26.

In Romans 11:28, the words “they are” do not appear in the original Greek; there is no tense provided, and “they are” has been translationally imputed. Given the absence in the original Greek, an imputation of “they were” is equally reasonable, and one which much more accurately matches actual reality. Paul is averring that Israelite unbelievers were enemies of the gospel before they believed, which was certainly true in Paul's experience. Upon receiving and believing the gospel, and being added to the elect, they also became beloved for the sake of the fathers. “Beloved” is another NT description reserved for believers in Christ, and for Christ Himself (Matthew 3:17, Matthew 12:18, Acts 15:25, Romans 1:7, 1 Corinthians 4:14, Philippians 2:12, Colossians 3:12, et al). The Greek "dia" translated “for the sake of” has primary meanings of “through” and “on account of” in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. It is through and on account of the faith of Abraham and all subsequent faithful fathers that the lineage through which Christ the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16) came, was preserved down through the ages.

All the still-living, elect, non-Christian genetic Israelites who don't become Christians before Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming will become Christians (and so will become members of the Church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at His Second Coming (Romans 11:26) when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect genetic Israelites will eventually become Christians and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

Under no conditions or circumstances will anyone who has not received Christ prior to His appearing at His second coming, be saved. In the same manner as death eliminates the opportunity to receive Christ, so does His second appearance. This is a guaranteed recipe for fatal procrastination. It is why Paul urges:

2 Corinthians 6
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

There is no later accepted time or later day of salvation.

In the dispensational view, Zechariah 12:10-14 is universalism, i.e. universal salvation, for all on earth who are alive when Christ returns, since all are ethnic Israelites according to contemporary genetic science. It is also universalism for all historical ethnic Israelites, all of whom will be present on that day. This includes Judas and all of those responsible for Christ's death (“they shall look upon me whom they have pierced”). Dispensationally, we can therefore expect to see Judas in heaven, notwithstanding that Jesus declared him lost (John 17:12).

 

[The Times]

Hi The Times,

Had you realised that in Zech. 14 : 6 - 7 it is referring to when the Lord Himself comes to earth. His glory will make the evening bright. Then we read further and find out that those who come against Him their flesh shall dissolve while they are on their feet. (v. 12) Then further on we see that those nations who are left who have come up against Jerusalem, if they do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King them they will get a plague upon them.

None of that is the New heavens & New earth. Time to think again, bro. Marilyn

Firstly, it will help us to read and note Zechariah 14 as a poetic text type, which has poetic language, with metaphoric symbol overlay. As we can discern in verse 20...

upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

It is using a phrase and symbols of the bells and horses, to convey a jubilant celebration at the wedding feast of the Lamb of God, at the end of the world itself. Therefore it does not imply physical bells or physical horses, but uses those ancient celebration symbols to convey a greater point. The pots are used to convey the Holy Vessels that accompany the Lord and who are to dwell with the Lord forever and ever. Therefore they are not physical pots.

We are required to contextualise the second coming of the Lord with the coming with his Holy Ones to execute judgment, at the Judgement of the Dead and when the books are opened.

14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15To execute judgment upon all, (Jude 1:14)

It does say the same thing as follows.....

14These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. (Revelation 17:14)

When the Lord comes, immediate judgement will be executed and with him, must come his Heavenly Majesterial Counsel, the many Holy Ones. Essentially when Jesus returns, he comes with the glory of his already established Kingdom New Jerusalem.

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. (Revelation 21:1-4)

We are required to contextualise the return of our Lord with his many Holy Ones and the power of all his Heavenly Kingdom. This Kingdom, New Jerusalem is the place that the Lord promised to prepare for his bride aka the Church at her consecration. This must also coincide with the feast of Tabernackles, which also points to the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

It is those who take part in the resurrection of the dead at the Judgement of the Dead who represent the saved from the many nations in the poetic language symbology of pots, meaning from all nations, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

so anyone who does not take part in the resurrection of the dead shall have no reign, that is no part in God's Heavenly Kingdom New Jerusalem. The language establishes a foregone conclusion, that is, it is not one that has people's all of a sudden deciding to come up to Jerusalem, so that they can have reign with him.

Just focus on the language and its symbology.

 

[Marilyn C]

Firstly, it will help us to read and note Zechariah 14 as a poetic text type, which has poetic language, with metaphoric symbol overlay. As we can discern in verse 20...

upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

It is using a phrase and symbols of the bells and horses, to convey a jubilant celebration at the wedding feast of the Lamb of God, at the end of the world itself. Therefore it does not imply physical bells or physical horses, but uses those ancient celebration symbols to convey a greater point. The pots are used to convey the Holy Vessels that accompany the Lord and who are to dwell with the Lord forever and ever. Therefore they are not physical pots.

.

The Times,

Now there is NO indication that Zech. 14 has any symbolic language. The `bells on the horses` is just that. There were bells on the High Priest`s garment, and in some countries they put bells of the horse`s manes etc. Remember the Christmas song -

`dashing through the snow, on a one horse open sleigh, o`the fields we go laughing all the way.
Bells on horse tail swinging, making in spirit`s light, oh what fun it is to ride,.......(forget the rest)

Marilyn.

 

[The Times]

Now there is NO indication that Zech. 14 has any symbolic language. The `bells on the horses` is just that. There were bells on the High Priest`s garment, and in some countries they put bells of the horse`s manes etc. Remember the Christmas song -

What would be indicative to you of symbolic language?

What is symbolism?

Symbolism is the practice or art of using an object or a word to represent an abstract idea. An action, person, place, word, or object can all have a symbolic meaning. When an author wants to suggest a certain mood or emotion, he can also use symbolism to hint at it, rather than just blatantly saying it.

Read more at Examples of Symbolism

In literature, symbolism can take many forms including:

• A figure of speech where an object, person, or situation has another meaning other than its literal meaning.
• The actions of a character, word, action, or event that have a deeper meaning in the context of the whole story.

Read more at Examples of Symbolism

Also please attempt this exercise....

Are the following sentence symbolic yes/no...

2I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

If it is a literal city of brick and morter, then how can the city be TAKEN by the enemy, yet half of the people will not be TAKEN from the city?

It only makes sense if this city is a spiritual city, which points to the body of Christ, the Church.

What makes up the body of Christ?

Houses of gathering and prayer of the many denominations as the many women who are defiled.

Obviously it is not talking about literal houses that are ransaked or literal women who are raped, because it is silent for men and children. We know from old testament writings that if men and children are killed, then that would be mentioned.

How could half of people stay in the city, after men and children are killed and women raped?

It absolutely makes no sense if we take houses as literal houses or women as literal women.

This would further indicate that the symbolism points to the many women which identify the many denominations of the city. Therefore the city is spiritual Jerusalem aka the body of Christ and this explains why half of the people were not taken from the city, which continues during the same time the enemies are taking or infiltration for the better word, the women/denominations and corrupting the body of believers, that is the peoples who are within its spiritual walls.

The old testament church was the woman in the singular, that is there were no denominations, yet women implies many church denominations, which is highly suggestive of the new covenant church, consisting of Jew and Gentile believers.

Is the following sentences symbolic?

4On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

East of Jerusalem symbolises Christ's brilliant coming as declared below....

For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Notice during the time of Uzziah king of Judah, the people ran away or fled from the fault line where the quake's destructive path was, yet here the author implies that people will run into the valley, where the fault line occurs.

The only rationale explanation is that it is not a literal valley, but rather the Lord's presence from East to West and the mountains are the former old testament and latter new testament sea/ congregation of peoples who gather around the Lord's presence. The symbolic language conveys a sense of urgency to do so, while time permits.

A literal interpretation is rendered incomprehensively illogical to why people would flee outside the city and run to the valley.

 

[Marilyn C]

A literal interpretation is rendered incomprehensively illogical to why people would flee outside the city and run to the valley.

`But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. let those in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart......and Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.` (Luke 21: 20, 21 & 24)

`I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; and I will enter into judgment with them there on account of my people, my heritage Israel..` (Joel 3: 2)

BTW bro, you are making up whatever you want and I cannot talk about that as it is NOT God`s word. He has all His interpretations of symbols explained in His word. We do NOT jump to conclusions and especially NOT to make it all about us!

regards, Marilyn.