Gods grace is sufficient for us

W2L

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2 Corinthians 12:9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Philippians 4:12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Romans 5 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have[a] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
 

yeshuaslavejeff

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Shalom. Since God's Grace is beyond the most extravagant dreams and imaginations of mankind, even beyond what God's children can grasp,

why does most of mankind continually reject His Grace?

How does the enemy of all life trick the churches even, so they don't benefit from God's Grace the
Way the ekklesia in the New Testament continually did ? (with freedom from depression always, freedom from the power of the world: continually living daily with peace, joy and righteousness, helping one another daily, opening their homes to the homeless, healing the sick, driving away demons with a word, building up one another in God's Word and with Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs throughout the week house to house )
 
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W2L

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Shalom. Since God's Grace is beyond the most extravagant dreams and imaginations of mankind, even beyond what God's children can grasp,

why does most of mankind continually reject His Grace?

How does the enemy of all life trick the churches even, so they don't benefit from God's Grace the
Way the ekklesia in the New Testament continually did ? (with freedom from depression always, freedom from the power of the world: continually living daily with peace, joy and righteousness, helping one another daily, opening their homes to the homeless, healing the sick, driving away demons with a word, building up one another in God's Word and with Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs throughout the week house to house )
I'll need to think on that for a while.
 
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Anguspure

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Shalom. Since God's Grace is beyond the most extravagant dreams and imaginations of mankind, even beyond what God's children can grasp,

why does most of mankind continually reject His Grace?

How does the enemy of all life trick the churches even, so they don't benefit from God's Grace the
Way the ekklesia in the New Testament continually did ? (with freedom from depression always, freedom from the power of the world: continually living daily with peace, joy and righteousness, helping one another daily, opening their homes to the homeless, healing the sick, driving away demons with a word, building up one another in God's Word and with Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs throughout the week house to house )
“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13)
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. (1 Peter 1)
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 John 4)
 
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W2L

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“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” (John 13)
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart. (1 Peter 1)
Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. (1 John 4)
Amen. Thank you
 
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fide

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Shalom. Since God's Grace is beyond the most extravagant dreams and imaginations of mankind, even beyond what God's children can grasp,

why does most of mankind continually reject His Grace?

How does the enemy of all life trick the churches even, so they don't benefit from God's Grace the
Way the ekklesia in the New Testament continually did ? (with freedom from depression always, freedom from the power of the world: continually living daily with peace, joy and righteousness, helping one another daily, opening their homes to the homeless, healing the sick, driving away demons with a word, building up one another in God's Word and with Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs throughout the week house to house )

Most of mankind continually reject God's grace because the People of God so often reject so much of His grace. So many of us draw back from the weight of the Cross bearing our name. The revealing of the sons of God thus is awaited still:

Rom 8:16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.
Rom 8:18 I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
Rom 8:19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God;...
Grace is "free", and yet it demands much - it "costs" much...
 
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Arsenios

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2 Corinthians 12:9
I will instead boast in my infirmities...
I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs,
in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake."

Do you know anyone who is actually doing the above?

Arsenios
 
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W2L

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Do you know anyone who is actually doing the above?

Arsenios
I do not know anyone like the apostle Paul. He was the greatest evangelist i suppose. We however can still follow his command and example. I have been blessed by Pauls words.
 
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fide

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Do you know anyone who is actually doing the above?

Arsenios
2 Corinthians 12:9
I will instead boast in my infirmities...
I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs,
in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake."

Yes, many Catholics I have known follow the old wisdom of "offering it up", when such trials come - offering the trial, through the grace of the Lord, gladly and in charity, in reparation for one's own sins and the sins of others, in union with His Cross, and with the holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered throughout the world.

The Orthodox, in your experience, do not do this?
 
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Arsenios

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2 Corinthians 12:9
I will instead boast in my infirmities...
I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs,
in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake.
"

Yes, many Catholics I have known follow the old wisdom of "offering it up", when such trials come - offering the trial, through the grace of the Lord, gladly and in charity, in reparation for one's own sins and the sins of others, in union with His Cross, and with the holy Sacrifice of the Mass offered throughout the world.

The Orthodox, in your experience, do not do this?

Well Glory to God, someone actually stepped up to the plate!

Thank-you!

The Orthodox Catholic Church indeed disciples this...

ALL of us Orthodox do it in varying degrees...

Each according to his or her maturity in the Faith...

There is more, you see...
Always more, as I suspect you already know...

For to do such things is a good thing, without question, but as one is discipled in such deeds, and as one acquires the actual doing of them, then the motivation for their doing becomes a factor, and a further step in one's discipleship arises...

The Marriage of the Lamb in this fallen world, at this time, when one is so close, is then to be sought in one's relationship with Christ, and Paul writes of it, as do others - To know to do these "offering it up" things is not enough, nor is the doing of them, but the Love of God for the God Who first loved us can then enflame the soul in Divine Ascent, where the doing of them is without effort or even thought, but is through our actual, ontological UNION with God in the Love that God actually IS...

I am engladdened that at least some in the Latin Church are embracing this teaching in needs and afflictions... We differ from you in that we do not understand the matter as a means of the acquisition of any kind of merit or excess merit for others, but instead we understand such discipling as a means of attaining to union with God in the Marriage of the Lamb in this life... May I add that this means the acquisition of Grace that is not created for us, but is instead the lifting of the veil that to this day covers the face of Moses from the Jews, so that we partake of the Uncreated Grace of the Uncreated God which is indeed God Himself... That in this is the making of the Saints...

Thank-you for your gracious reply...

Arsenios
 
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fide

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Well Glory to God, someone actually stepped up to the plate!

Thank-you!

The Orthodox Catholic Church indeed disciples this...

ALL of us Orthodox do it in varying degrees...

Each according to his or her maturity in the Faith...

There is more, you see...
Always more, as I suspect you already know...

For to do such things is a good thing, without question, but as one is discipled in such deeds, and as one acquires the actual doing of them, then the motivation for their doing becomes a factor, and a further step in one's discipleship arises...

The Marriage of the Lamb in this fallen world, at this time, when one is so close, is then to be sought in one's relationship with Christ, and Paul writes of it, as do others - To know to do these "offering it up" things is not enough, nor is the doing of them, but the Love of God for the God Who first loved us can then enflame the soul in Divine Ascent, where the doing of them is without effort or even thought, but is through our actual, ontological UNION with God in the Love that God actually IS...

I am engladdened that at least some in the Latin Church are embracing this teaching in needs and afflictions... We differ from you in that we do not understand the matter as a means of the acquisition of any kind of merit or excess merit for others, but instead we understand such discipling as a means of attaining to union with God in the Marriage of the Lamb in this life... May I add that this means the acquisition of Grace that is not created for us, but is instead the lifting of the veil that to this day covers the face of Moses from the Jews, so that we partake of the Uncreated Grace of the Uncreated God which is indeed God Himself... That in this is the making of the Saints...

Thank-you for your gracious reply...

Arsenios

And thank you for your beautiful unfolding of sacred entrusted to you. I'll try to build a more explicit bridge between us, if that is possible, if I may, using this sentence you wrote:
"We differ from you in that we do not understand the matter as a means of the acquisition of any kind of merit or excess merit for others, but instead we understand such discipling as a means of attaining to union with God in the Marriage of the Lamb in this life...."​

As I understand "merit" in the Church, it refers to the blessing due because of holy love in the Mystical Body of Christ, which pulses as divine life healing, purifying, nurturing, maturing, animating the entire Body - both here and now, and in those souls waiting still in purgation and purification.

That is, this matter of "offering it up" is all about divine love, holy charity, God's own love in the Mystical Body the Church. In the case of the Roman Catholic Church, emphasized here is "love in act - doing". In the case of the Orthodox, as I understand you in your post, is "love in being - holy union, communion in Him".

Authentic love in human persons is always, by its essence, fruitful in both ways.

But, forgive me if I have attempted to "stretch" your comments beyond your intention.
 
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fide

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Spiritual growth takes tribulation. We enter the kingdom through tribulation.

Yes, I agree. I would want to add, though, that tribulation works good not only for the one suffering, if one suffers with patience, trust and holy love, but for the whole Church, the whole Body of Christ. Paul spoke of this work of suffering for the Church, in writing:
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,...
 
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W2L

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Yes, I agree. I would want to add, though, that tribulation works good not only for the one suffering, if one suffers with patience, trust and holy love, but for the whole Church, the whole Body of Christ. Paul spoke of this work of suffering for the Church, in writing:
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,...
Sure, but Paul teaches us to follow his example as well.

Colossians 1:10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;

2 Corinthians 1: And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

Romans 5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Philippians 4:12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
 
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fide

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Sure, but Paul teaches us to follow his example as well.

Colossians 1:10 that you may walk worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing Him, being fruitful in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all might, according to His glorious power, for all patience and longsuffering with joy;

2 Corinthians 1: And our hope for you is steadfast, because we know that as you are partakers of the sufferings, so also you will partake of the consolation.

Romans 5:3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; 4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Philippians 4:12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Most certainly! - (without a "but") - "Sure, but Paul teaches us to follow his example."
 
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Arsenios

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Yes, I agree. I would want to add, though, that tribulation works good not only for the one suffering, if one suffers with patience, trust and holy love, but for the whole Church, the whole Body of Christ. Paul spoke of this work of suffering for the Church, in writing:
Col 1:24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church,...

I can't resist - What exactly is it that is lacking in Christ's afflictions, that Paul is telling us that he completes?

This is one of those passages that few dwell on, I should think...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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As I understand "merit" in the Church, it refers to the blessing due

Does your use of "due" mean "owed"?

because of holy love in the Mystical Body of Christ, which pulses as divine life healing, purifying, nurturing, maturing, animating the entire Body - both here and now, and in those souls waiting still in purgation and purification.

I do not know this ("pulses") pulsing of divine love in the Body of Christ - It sounds sensuous... Have you felt it? What is it feel like?

That is, this matter of "offering it up" is all about divine love, holy charity, God's own love in the Mystical Body the Church. In the case of the Roman Catholic Church, emphasized here is "love in act - doing". In the case of the Orthodox, as I understand you in your post, is "love in being - holy union, communion in Him".

For the Orthodox, the goal of the discipling of the Apostolic Church is UNION with Christ in the Marriage of the Lamb, which IS Life Eternal - eg To KNOW [far beyond conjugal relations which are but a pale reflection of such knowing] the One, True God and His Son, Jesus Christ.

Authentic love in human persons is always, by its essence, fruitful in both ways.

Well, it is most assurredly a beginning... :)

But, forgive me if I have attempted to "stretch" your comments beyond your intention.

Union with God has no beyond in this life...

It is quintessential Salvation in Christ...

Arsenios
 
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fide

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I can't resist - What exactly is it that is lacking in Christ's afflictions, that Paul is telling us that he completes?

This is one of those passages that few dwell on, I should think...

Arsenios

The simplest way to say it, that I know of, is this: What is lacking in Christ's afflictions, that Paul completes, is Paul's participation in His sufferings. He writes this as a model, as a father, in Christ - this is a teaching meant for all who would follow Him carrying their own crosses, bearing their own afflictions in holy charity, and for their parts completing their shares in Him and in His love.
 
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