Struggling with our church....

ToBeLoved

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It was not just Paul if you read the chapters and the NT closely studying this topic. It was Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Luke, Peter, Mark, all of them. Not a single one took a "salary" or was paid for their services. Jesus even gave a sermon on the hireling. Study it please. It is not "my" stance, it is the word of God and the bible.

The last part of my last post was generalized statements and not jabs. But if asking people to actually study the word for themselves upsets them I am not sure what to say about that.
Supporting a ministry back then was similar given no mass transportation. And I think they did accept donations.

It didn’t read like you were saying people should read the word. But that’s water under the bridge.
 
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Barney

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Several verses strongly support paying pastors, such as 1Cor9:14 In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.

People with really bad doctrine like to tortuously stretch verses to reach conclusions from verses that don't say what they pretend those verses say, while ignoring verses that directly contradict them. A warning against greed is not a prohibition against paying pastors.

 
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cfdude

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He had tried selling it, but couldn't. He was desperate, just as he is now, to have a new church. So he asked my husband to buy it. At the time, I was bothered because it isn't something that my husband and I heard from God about, but rather were pressured by our pastor.

I actually love this idea, and it's what I've had on my heart for a while now. I don't know what to call it....home church, life group, bible study, or whatever....but I long for genuine community.

The modern church has abandoned and replaced the Biblical model for one that has become about the pastor and his buildings and not Christ's people. Somebody posted a great thread on here called, (The Pastor King).

1 Cor 14:26 clearly defines the role each believer has in participating in the meeting and the pastor usurps and suppreses each believer's gift for his own. Love is not rude.

Now, he also wants to embark on a new project with your money as well? I would say start a Meetup or some home group with Christians who want to love and edify one another instead of paying some pastor to do our responsibility. The professionals as they are esteemed by people on here became professionals by paying money to schools to train them in homeletics, public speaking and Christian doctrine. Jesus taught none of this as a prerequisite for the family gathering! So what if a fellow Christian can't speak as a professional! Was Moses eloquent or even Paul! NO!! But God made them to fulfill their role He had for them. The church started in people's homes under persecution and not in expensive buildings with fancy signs. Stop outsourcing what God has called all of us to do! We are all called to edify and love one another! They always forget verse 24 in their spiritual tyranny on others who are ignorant.. Where is the pastor in this verse??

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, (25) not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.
 
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cfdude

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  • Exodus 4:10-11 But Moses said to the LORD, “Oh, my Lord, I am not eloquent, either in the past or since you have spoken to your servant, but I am slow of speech and of tongue.” (11) Then the LORD said to him, “Who has made man's mouth? Who makes him mute, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the LORD?
Jesus trained and educated His apostles through the Word by His Holy Spirit opening their hearts and minds to understand the wisdom that comes from above.
 
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cfdude

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I agree. I want someone who knows the Bible. I can read uneducated people’s opinions on God in blog posts all over the internet or on YouTube.

As though pastors are all educated and not full of opinions. These arrogant statements reveal the truth of what has happened to believers by the pastors. They have made the church become the amateurs and uneducated.

What father doesn't allow his children to grow and learn to develop and practice until they have become perfected in their tasks? The acknowledgment that the body shouldn't participate in their gifts because they are inadequate is like somebody making fun of an obese person in a gym, when the gym is the very place they should be in to exercise and be built up. The church is where we develop our gifts.

  • Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, (12) to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, (13) until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, (14) so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. (15) Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, (16) from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
 
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petunia72

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My 2 cents is trust your instincts - especially as other people have raised similar concerns as that is a red flag. Church size is irrelevant. Jesus' church was whittled down to 12 disciples. The real question is out of those attending church, how many are actually being discipled? What specific measures are in place to ascertain whether people are being discipled or not? I've been through seminary, served FT on a church staff and been part of the tiniest of churches as well as the largest of congregations. Not one of those churches had measures in place to determine whether those in attendance were being properly discipled or not. The Great Commission commands us to create disciples; not just converts. It appears that your pastor's goal is to raise more money to build a larger facility in order to attract more people. The pertinent question is what is the spiritual maturity of those who presently attend? Jesus attracted large crowds of people but as time went on the crowds dwindled because he put spiritual demands on them that no longer made his message attractive.

You live in a small community and may not have much other church options. Have you considered a house church? You and you husband could start one in your own home. I am biased as we've been doing that for years and I've learned more in house church with other like-minded believers then all my years attending church. Whatever you decide, don't commit any of your own monies unless you and your husband have a peace about it. If you have questions about a house church, let me know.

I would love to hear more about starting a house church. I remember my mother talking about doing that when she and my dad were a young couple.
Since our church is the "fun" church in town, we've grown lately with a lot of the mid-thirties crowd. The party-hard-but-still-want-to-do-church crowd. It feels fake to me.
 
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Oldmantook

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I would love to hear more about starting a house church. I remember my mother talking about doing that when she and my dad were a young couple.
Since our church is the "fun" church in town, we've grown lately with a lot of the mid-thirties crowd. The party-hard-but-still-want-to-do-church crowd. It feels fake to me.
Petunia72 - so that your thread does not go off-topic, if you message me through my inbox I would be more than happy to converse about the details of house church. However if you want me to discuss more about house church on this thread, that is also possible since you are the OP. Just let me know.:hug:
 
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2Timothy2:15

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The modern church has abandoned and replaced the Biblical model for one that has become about the pastor and his buildings and not Christ's people. Somebody posted a great thread on here called, (The Pastor King).

1 Cor 14:26 clearly defines the role each believer has in participating in the meeting and the pastor usurps and suppreses each believer's gift for his own. Love is not rude.

Now, he also wants to embark on a new project with your money as well? I would say start a Meetup or some home group with Christians who want to love and edify one another instead of paying some pastor to do our responsibility. The professionals as they are esteemed by people on here became professionals by paying money to schools to train them in homeletics, public speaking and Christian doctrine. Jesus taught none of this as a prerequisite for the family gathering! So what if a fellow Christian can't speak as a professional! Was Moses eloquent or even Paul! NO!! But God made them to fulfill their role He had for them. The church started in people's homes under persecution and not in expensive buildings with fancy signs. Stop outsourcing what God has called all of us to do! We are all called to edify and love one another! They always forget verse 24 in their spiritual tyranny on others who are ignorant.. Where is the pastor in this verse??

Hebrews 10:24-25 And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, (25) not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

Amen
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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There was a seed of negativity that was planted in you long ago. This tree is now full grown and producing negative fruit. The fruit falls from the tree and you look at it as if it belongs to someone else. More fall and you look at it and it becomes a problem with the youth ministry. The second fruit taste like someone else begging for money. And yet the third taste like blind carnal ambition of a pastor.

Until you realize that this negative fruit is coming from your own tree.....you will continue to see negativity in others.

But I say the ax is now laid to the root of the tree. You need to forgive yourself and others. Clean your house and search for the seed of life. Once this seed grows, you will see only light, as you will be in the light.... You will see fruit on the ground that taste like love in someone else. A second fruit will taste like kindness in another. A third will taste like someone always trying to bless you.

You will then realize that those fruit, too, were coming from yourSelf as well......
What the???????
 
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zelosravioli

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I know, what..?? Yet that sounds like the response you get when you question the relevance and objective of the sermon...

Maybe you could explain yourself better Raymond (please leave the parables and rhyming up to The Lord). Your not saying Petunia is being negative are you? When in fact she is using wisdom and discernment, and I might say in a pleasant tone, something scripture and our Lord commands us to do.
 
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zelosravioli

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Millions upon millions of people would agree with Oldman, CF, 2Timothy, Disciple and others here - 'church' as it is done, is not how it has to be. This was not how the Church was in the beginning, nor is this how it should be now, yet this is the the format in nearly every single church in the world uses, thanks to Catholicism. What the church refuses to know, or acknowledge, is that the millions that left and wont step in again, they see the out of touch and inept lame ritual and tradition and control of the Sunday sermon. Yet the 'preachers' feel it is their job to blame the lack of attendance on sin and disbelief.
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?
Sounds like you pastor is the Romans 12 personality type of "leader." Those are descriptive terminologies. I like to call that one the gift of a natural born salesman. They think in terms of numbers and buildings. Nothing wrong with that as all those seven personality types are supposed to be represented in the vision of a local church. Now you are seeing the problem with the American corperate version of a church where one of these personatly types vision becomes the vision of the church. it is naturally unbalanced and even sort of tyrannical. This is a systematic problem in churches now a days unfortunately. Lip service about the different gifts, callings and empowerments but without a deep enough understanding of them to usefully mold a local church along the lines of a body rather than a corporate structure.
 
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Sketcher

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When my church got a new building, the need was obvious to everybody. It was very hard to find a place to park, even for people that made it on time. We had two Sunday services, and a Saturday night service. We added a fourth service between the two Sunday services - we rented a school, and the pastor would preach at the church, drive to the school, preach at the school, drive back to the church, and preach at the church again. This was after we had planted churches. We had to rent out an auditorium for our Easter services. The building effort did take some years, but it wasn't 9 years and 3 failed attempts. If the pastor clearly wants to do this and the church isn't buying what he's selling, I'm questioning the need. Why does he say that you need a new building?
 
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faroukfarouk

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So your pastor wants growth.
Your pastor puts so much effort in growth of numbers.
You pastor put so much focus on it that it is causing conflict financially among the brethren.
The growth of numbers is being a hindrance on being truly edifying to the saints, both young and old.
All this, and you prayed and yet....you haven't gone to a planned meeting?

Have you tried bringing it up with your pastor? Have you given him ideas on better ways to deal with such things? Have you scheduled time before?
There's also spiritual growth: 'Grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.' (2 Peter 3).
 
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Barney

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Church size is irrelevant. Jesus' church was whittled down to 12 disciples.

Church size matters. First, Jesus' "church" wasn't whittled down to 12 disciples, as Jesus even preached to crowds of many thousands. A larger number than 12 also traveled with Jesus, and you can think of them as the church's staff. Before Pentecost, there were 120 gathered together, in one place, and I don't think there's any indication that this was all of Christ's followers, even at this most difficult time. Even if it were whittled down to just 12, which it wasn't, bringing in new people was always a big priority.

Small churches have trouble meeting the needs of diverse people, maybe even have trouble staying a going concern. Big churches are impersonal and compromise the faith to attract as many people as possible.

Anyway, a church must first gain someone before it can disciple them.
 
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zelosravioli

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Yes Barney you are correct - 'preaching' was done 'outside' the church, but note Jesus went and talked to the disciples often privately or as 'a smaller' group. The 'church' was originally (and should still be) made up of disciples and believers) (there is no law against inviting unsaved to join and attend, but the disciples need time to be disciples themselves, that is what is meant by 'the disciples met together'). Therein lies one of the falsehoods of the popular church model - the pastors were not necessarily the preachers, the 'preaching' was done 'outside' the church, while shepherding, pastoring and teaching is something done 'in' the church. The modern church preaches in the church, and yet preaching is not the way to make or disciple with one another, and thus discipling as well as being a disciple is basically absent on Sundays and at church.

In response to 'To be loved' and 2Timothy: Even if Pauls verses spoke of the apostles and or preachers taking money directly for themselves (and I've studied this enough conclude some 'may' have been taking money, and it is certainly a matter of interpretation) it was certainly a different 'context', and it was not a 'salary'. It was more likely a material donation or something like food or lodging. The ones that took money in early church history seemed to be the 'traveling preachers' who spoke to the unbelievers, or what we know as missionaries.
 
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Oldmantook

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Church size matters. First, Jesus' "church" wasn't whittled down to 12 disciples, as Jesus even preached to crowds of many thousands. A larger number than 12 also traveled with Jesus, and you can think of them as the church's staff. Before Pentecost, there were 120 gathered together, in one place, and I don't think there's any indication that this was all of Christ's followers, even at this most difficult time. Even if it were whittled down to just 12, which it wasn't, bringing in new people was always a big priority.

Small churches have trouble meeting the needs of diverse people, maybe even have trouble staying a going concern. Big churches are impersonal and compromise the faith to attract as many people as possible.

Anyway, a church must first gain someone before it can disciple them.
Yes there were other followers of Jesus but he specifically focused his discipleship efforts at the twelve. Many others fell away: "From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him" (Jn 6:66). Indeed a church must gain converts before making disciples but my point was by what specific measures do churches ascertain that they are making true disciples out of those converted? How effective are the church programs and activities in creating mature believers? Are we attracting converts and fostering spiritual maturity primarily based on fun activities and entertainment, or is a sacrificial life and the cost of following Christ also emphasized? Perhaps your experience differs from mine and I'm not saying that all churches are the same, but I've never been in a church in my decades as a Christian that asked the hard questions. We mostly presumed that disciples were being made based on size of attendance which became the preoccupation. Even in the small churches I was in, we never asked how effective we were in creating disciples even with the small numbers we had and getting more into the front door was the goal.
 
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zelosravioli

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Barney wrote; "... a church must first gain someone before it can disciple them". Yes you preach and convert an unbeliever, invite them to your homes (most of us already have unbelievers in our homes already), even invite them to a evangelical 'service' but such a service is not what believers need. Like I said, I don't believe preaching is discipling, real and productive teaching would have a two way communication between people. The 1st century Jewish model was very akin to discussion within a small group.

I believe the new Believers met so often because they shared a love and excitement for this new found faith in Christ, and they enjoyed the company and fellowship of one another, thats 'why' they met together everyday - they 'enjoyed' the fellowship. This was not like the fellowship they used to know as religious Jews, nor was it like the fellowship pagans and Greeks shared, this was a new fellowship of grace, truth love and forgiveness.

You can still have large groups of disciples meet on a Sunday, you just need to get rid of the pews and put in tables (like in a restaurant) where people can talk and pray 'with one another'. We should have hundreds of believers getting together everyday and Sunday. We should all be teachers by now, talking and discussing and learning 'together' by actually 'talking' with one another . We do not need to sit and be preached at, while we sit speechless sitting in rows, like dumb sheep. Because the only thing that comes from that are continually dumb sheep (although shorn and fleeced).

Petunia, your discernment is good, we experienced the same story. Like Oldman said home church may be your only option, and you may find that if you focus on your own neighborhood you may discover friends and convert some people yourself, in your own neighborhood or community (and we use the online Meetup.com site also, as someone here mentioned). I believe we should also be meeting with other believers in large groups of disciples to learn, worship, pray and work together. 'We' are what Jesus meant to be His Body. But sadly, the modern churches do not operate this way, the popular church service does not promote friendships and relationships. The popular church model only serves the continuation of the salaries and self serving ritual of the pastor/sermon focused church service. You are not alone though, millions are getting this message, and I have faith many church formats will change, that is my prayer.
 
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Oldmantook

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Barney wrote; "... a church must first gain someone before it can disciple them". Yes you preach and convert an unbeliever, invite them to your homes (most of us already have unbelievers in our homes already), even invite them to a evangelical 'service' but such a service is not what believers need. I believe the new Believers met because they shared a love and excitement for this new found faith in Christ, and they enjoyed the company and fellowship of one another, thats 'why' they met together everyday - they 'enjoyed' the fellowship. This was not like the fellowship they used to know as religious Jews, nor was it like the fellowship pagans and Greeks shared, this was a new fellowship of grace, truth and forgiveness.

You can still have large groups of disciples meet on a Sunday, you just have to get rid of the pews and put in tables (like in a restaurant) where people can talk and pray with one another. We should have hundreds of believers getting together everyday and Sunday, we should all be teachers by now, talking and discussing and learning 'together' by actually 'talking' with one another . We do not need to sit and be preached at, while we sit speechless sitting in rows, like dumb sheep. Because the only thing that comes from this is dumb sheep.
Sounds similar to Paul's instructions as to what should happen when the church meets:
"What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a psalm or a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. All of these must be done to build up the church" (1 Cor 14:26).
 
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