Life is a death sentence: Predestination vs Freewill

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

I love this thinking. If God is light and light shines out of darkness where did darkness come from? And darkness was mentioned first in the creation story. 'He lives in darkness too deep for either men or angels' is a great pearl in the Bible I have never heard before. I love that about the Bible. Interesting stuff.

I think I said this before, but where God lives, in deep darkness (recently found by human beings, no doubt by no little grace)... in the "black hole at the beginning of time" (ref, for instance: The Black Hole at the Beginning of Time )...

There is the day where there is neither light nor darkness. A day the Lord knows.

('6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.' Zechariah 14:6-7)

Come very, very far from there to mere human beings on planet earth, and there is great polarity. Great light and great darkness.

For God, this has all already happened, as He is Light and so far in our future, and far in our past. And today.

Otherwise, everything happens for a good reason. There are many scriptures that speak towards this.

Ultimately, it is for the children, just as it is with any parent.

 

[theoneinsidethezero]

I think I said this before, but where God lives, in deep darkness (recently found by human beings, no doubt by no little grace)... in the "black hole at the beginning of time" (ref, for instance: The Black Hole at the Beginning of Time )...

There is the day where there is neither light nor darkness. A day the Lord knows.

('6 On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7 It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.' Zechariah 14:6-7)

Come very, very far from there to mere human beings on planet earth, and there is great polarity. Great light and great darkness.

For God, this has all already happened, as He is Light and so far in our future, and far in our past. And today.

Otherwise, everything happens for a good reason. There are many scriptures that speak towards this.

Ultimately, it is for the children, just as it is with any parent.

This is great stuff! I remember this verse in Zechariah and always hoped one day I'd see it. 'no distinction between day and night' reminds me of when Genesis speaks of God separated light from darkness. Doesn't that imply they were once one?

I will check out the link above too. Thanks!

 

[Geralt]

"do we really have freewill to do anything about it?"

depends on your definition of "freewill", but if you like not to die and is offended that you will die eventually, then it is simply imagination.

 

[theoneinsidethezero]

"do we really have freewill to do anything about it?"

depends on your definition of "freewill", but if you like not to die and is offended that you will die eventually, then it is simply imagination.

I kinda get what you are saying here but I have to say it's a little hard to follow. Feel free to restate this if you don't mind. Sounds like it might be pretty insightful. Thanks.

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

This is great stuff! I remember this verse in Zechariah and always hoped one day I'd see it. 'no distinction between day and night' reminds me of when Genesis speaks of God separated light from darkness. Doesn't that imply they were once one?

I will check out the link above too. Thanks!

I... actually have seen it before. But, must have been a vision, as I had my wife out there and asked her if she saw the moon or sun, and she did. I did not.

Though, as we have our inner, transfigured self in us living at or beyond the speed of light, anything is possible.

... on genesis...

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.


So, I do not know. I do know that the Spirit hovering over the waters meant that God could see both the darkness and the waters.

I tend to think as before anyone else, there was eternal consciousness in the void. Words or images could have been created, and then by words or images, or both, others. And so on.

That is from visions, however, true or not, I do not know, probably.

Much communication is rhetorical or indirect, or 'what you need to know now'.

 

[theoneinsidethezero]

I... actually have seen it before. But, must have been a vision, as I had my wife out there and asked her if she saw the moon or sun, and she did. I did not.

Though, as we have our inner, transfigured self in us living at or beyond the speed of light, anything is possible.

... on genesis...

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.


So, I do not know. I do know that the Spirit hovering over the waters meant that God could see both the darkness and the waters.

I tend to think as before anyone else, there was eternal consciousness in the void. Words or images could have been created, and then by words or images, or both, others. And so on.

That is from visions, however, true or not, I do not know, probably.

Much communication is rhetorical or indirect, or 'what you need to know now'.

Interesting thoughts. Regarding Genesis has anyone ever considered this: Start in John like this:

'I n the beginning was the word 'I' (see it at the beginning of the sentence) and 'I' was with God and 'I' was God. 'I' was with God in the beginning. Put that insight together with Psalm 82:6 that says 'I say ye are gods, sons and daughters of the most high.' How is all this possible. Watch and read Genesis again with me keeping in mind discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes or 'I's' in this case lol:

'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth' Luke 17:21 KJV says the kingdom of heaven is within man and Genesis 2:7 says God made man from the dust of the Earth.

'Now the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep.' Can you picture the formation of a human embryo that is 'formless and void' in the mothers womb where darkness and the deep reside.

And here comes the spirit hovering over the waters to put the kingdom in the embryo when god said 'Let there be light' as God is light.

More to say on that but I think your mind can wrap your head around the rest of what I am trying to say there. It feels an awful lot like we were all with God in the beginning.

I end with this. I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil surrounds the tree of life and both are in the midst of each and every one of us as the human brain. Just look at how much the brain looks like a tree when out of the skull of humanity. And Christ was crucified at golgotha place of what? THE SKULL. Your skull. The temple of the Word where all the stories of the Bible are happening in each and every one of us. I know I have already said this but it's worth repeating here the flaming sword spinning everywhich way around the tree of life is symbolized by the crown of thorns around the mind of Christ as if to say when seeking the mind of Christ our way will be blocked with thorns and thistles.

The human brain being the tree of life would explain why we cannot reach out our hand and grab from it. But here is the thing we can eat from the tree of life if can mentally grasp what the Bible is really saying...but as we all know the truth is heavily guarded.

Okay I'm rambling again. Sorry...

 

[DreamerOfTheHeart]

Interesting thoughts. Regarding Genesis has anyone ever considered this: Start in John like this:

'I n the beginning was the word 'I' (see it at the beginning of the sentence) and 'I' was with God and 'I' was God. 'I' was with God in the beginning. Put that insight together with Psalm 82:6 that says 'I say ye are gods, sons and daughters of the most high.' How is all this possible. Watch and read Genesis again with me keeping in mind discovery consists not in seeking new lands but seeing with new eyes or 'I's' in this case lol:

'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth' Luke 17:21 KJV says the kingdom of heaven is within man and Genesis 2:7 says God made man from the dust of the Earth.

'Now the earth was formless and void and darkness was over the surface of the deep.' Can you picture the formation of a human embryo that is 'formless and void' in the mothers womb where darkness and the deep reside.

And here comes the spirit hovering over the waters to put the kingdom in the embryo when god said 'Let there be light' as God is light.

More to say on that but I think your mind can wrap your head around the rest of what I am trying to say there. It feels an awful lot like we were all with God in the beginning.

I end with this. I think the tree of the knowledge of good and evil surrounds the tree of life and both are in the midst of each and every one of us as the human brain. Just look at how much the brain looks like a tree when out of the skull of humanity. And Christ was crucified at golgotha place of what? THE SKULL. Your skull. The temple of the Word where all the stories of the Bible are happening in each and every one of us. I know I have already said this but it's worth repeating here the flaming sword spinning everywhich way around the tree of life is symbolized by the crown of thorns around the mind of Christ as if to say when seeking the mind of Christ our way will be blocked with thorns and thistles.

The human brain being the tree of life would explain why we cannot reach out our hand and grab from it. But here is the thing we can eat from the tree of life if can mentally grasp what the Bible is really saying...but as we all know the truth is heavily guarded.

Okay I'm rambling again. Sorry...

Lol... some interesting stuff. I am aware of how there are symbols of procreation in the beginning. But Jesus said the gods are not all, but those through whom the word of God came. Prophets, angels, Christians.

Job reveals there were many sons of god / angels, before creation. They watched and cheered in joy.

But, right or wrong, good stuff to think on.

I tend to view the angel protecting the tree of life as the very angel of jesus through whom revelation came. aka, m the archangel. Jesus "guardian angel" which are ultimatelt our inner higher self, our transfigured self.

But, maybe some errors there.

The most shockin bit about the beginning I wont say as it is kept highly secret.

(most shocking which i know, anyway.)

But will have to consult w my angel on these other things u say lol

 

[Geralt]

sure. every person who defends freewill presumes the freedom of choice. but our choices really are 'constrained' or 'limited' by our own human ability and our level/lack of understanding.

ex:
- people will to fly or travel the universe in the blinck of an eye or will to conquer death and live forever- this is their choice. but this will is opposite to reality since our human nature is unable to do such feats. so in this regard, human 'freewill' or the human 'willing' is not the human 'able', for he cannot act on what he wills.

- people can only will what is within their boundary of understanding. no one makes a choice on something he/she does not understand. this inability to understand limits free will, thus the will is not totally free.

I kinda get what you are saying here but I have to say it's a little hard to follow. Feel free to restate this if you don't mind. Sounds like it might be pretty insightful. Thanks.

 

[Paidiske]

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[fhansen]

Up until about a month ago I had always struggled with this age old debate but now would like to tell you what I have discovered in my studies to resolve it.

As predestination goes I think we would all agree that being born into this world is a death sentence and I would say the Bible in ecc. would even back that up when it says "Death is the destiny of every man the living should take this to heart." That said we are all predestined to die in some way, fashion or form it is all just a matter of when. Who can really argue that no matter what religion you are?

The larger question is do we really have freewill to do anything about it?

To try and answer that let me ask you a few questions:

Can we read a book before it is written? No. Or watch a movie before it is filmed? No. Or play a game before it is designed? No. Clearly, the experience is created first and then we can experience it. So, in the case of our lives could we experience it before it was created? No. This means that our entire life experience could have been recorded somewhere ahead of time before we ever experienced a day of it! Hence the reason in the beginning was "the word" and that Jesus is the "author" of salvation! And some might say that’s impossible. We write our own destiny by making our own choices out of our own free will.

While that sounds great consider the following logic. If we wrote our own story why can’t we remember what we wrote about tomorrow? Does not the author of a book know what events will happen on the next page? Or have we forgotten the future?

The reason we can’t remember our future is because we didn’t write it? And if we didn’t write the future does it not follow that we are not writing our present either but are in fact merely experiencing what once was the future? It appears our entire future was written first, then we experienced it in the present and only remembered it as the past.

Confirmation of this truth can be seen in scripture in Jude 1:4:
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago (in the past) have secretly slipped in among you (in the present).

See it was written by the word or recorded first and then the experience occurred for them. What is interesting about all this are the conclusions you can draw from it. I can certainly think of a few but would love to know what you think first.

Thanks,
Paul

Because we haven't read the book which hasn't yet been written we experience it as unwritten-or written as we actually live out its story line. And so the book doesn't have to be written beforehand by us; for all practical purposes, from our perspective in real time, it's written as we live it.

 

[shakewell]

The reason we can’t remember our future is because we didn’t write it?

I can remember my future: it's home with the Lord for eternity. I wrote that future myself by receiving the Lord Jesus Christ as my Savior.
Have you forgotten your future? It's either heaven or hell. You need to write your future in the present. Now is the accepted time, now is the day of salvation.

 

[shakewell]

- people can only will what is within their boundary of understanding. no one makes a choice on something he/she does not understand. this inability to understand limits free will, thus the will is not totally free.

The will is 100% sovereign over the choices that are submitted to it. Something beyond the ability of the person to understand is simply not submitted to his will; but his will remains totally free.

 

[Geralt]

The will is 100% sovereign over the choices that are submitted to it. Something beyond the ability of the person to understand is simply not submitted to his will; but his will remains totally free.

of course he is 'free' within the boundaries of his own understanding and choices. like a fish in a bowl, free to swim whenever and whatever it likes, but contained. it doesnt even know it is contained.

 

[Radagast]

We live in the framework of time

But God doesn't.

 

[Radagast]

Start in John like this:

'I n the beginning was the word 'I' (see it at the beginning of the sentence) and 'I' was with God and 'I' was God. 'I' was with God in the beginning.

This is utterly non-Christian garbage.

 

[shakewell]

of course he is 'free' within the boundaries of his own understanding and choices. like a fish in a bowl, free to swim whenever and whatever it likes, but contained. it doesnt even know it is contained.

The will is an "it", not a person. The person's will remains the same when the person goes from bondage to freedom; it continues to function as it always has.

 

[Butch5]

Up until about a month ago I had always struggled with this age old debate but now would like to tell you what I have discovered in my studies to resolve it.

As predestination goes I think we would all agree that being born into this world is a death sentence and I would say the Bible in ecc. would even back that up when it says "Death is the destiny of every man the living should take this to heart." That said we are all predestined to die in some way, fashion or form it is all just a matter of when. Who can really argue that no matter what religion you are?

The larger question is do we really have freewill to do anything about it?

To try and answer that let me ask you a few questions:

Can we read a book before it is written? No. Or watch a movie before it is filmed? No. Or play a game before it is designed? No. Clearly, the experience is created first and then we can experience it. So, in the case of our lives could we experience it before it was created? No. This means that our entire life experience could have been recorded somewhere ahead of time before we ever experienced a day of it! Hence the reason in the beginning was "the word" and that Jesus is the "author" of salvation! And some might say that’s impossible. We write our own destiny by making our own choices out of our own free will.

While that sounds great consider the following logic. If we wrote our own story why can’t we remember what we wrote about tomorrow? Does not the author of a book know what events will happen on the next page? Or have we forgotten the future?

The reason we can’t remember our future is because we didn’t write it? And if we didn’t write the future does it not follow that we are not writing our present either but are in fact merely experiencing what once was the future? It appears our entire future was written first, then we experienced it in the present and only remembered it as the past.

Confirmation of this truth can be seen in scripture in Jude 1:4:
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago (in the past) have secretly slipped in among you (in the present).

See it was written by the word or recorded first and then the experience occurred for them. What is interesting about all this are the conclusions you can draw from it. I can certainly think of a few but would love to know what you think first.

Thanks,
Paul

The logic doesn't follow in your example. Also there is another way to understand Jude 1:4. However, this is all a moot point because the Predestination/Free Will debate is based on a flawed premise.