Struggling with our church....

Anguspure

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I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?
Seems to be a common problem. While it is true that an organisation requires funding to operate, the capitalist desire to ever expend into greater and bigger things is probably more to do with ego than service to God.
When it is God who decides to make things grow they grow like wild fire without manipulation from the one who plants or waters.
Nevertheless we should "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace." as you appear to be doing in this difficult time.
To leave or bring about a reformation over such issues does not bear fruit in the eyes of God.
Pray that God will change the course of the Church, but also examine yourself closely to make sure that you are not out of step with what God might be doing.
 
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disciple1

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I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?
If the pastor is asking for more money than you already give, he's in the wrong, I don't believe pastors should be paid anyway, theirs plenty of people in the church that can give a sermon, why not have them do the sermon, and stop paying the pastor, it may make your church better to have different people give the sermon each week.
 
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Barney

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If the pastor is asking for more money than you already give, he's in the wrong, I don't believe pastors should be paid anyway, theirs plenty of people in the church that can give a sermon, why not have them do the sermon, and stop paying the pastor, it may make your church better to have different people give the sermon each week.

I don't want an uneducated amateur giving me a sermon. Those people can do Sunday School and devotionals. The job of pastor is big enough that they should be paid.
 
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zelosravioli

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You have yet to be educated, if you 'still' need someone to give you a sermon. Just how long will it be before you could explain a bible verse to someone on your own? If the pastor is actually 'discipling' (teaching you to be disciples) then sooner, or later, you should be educated and capable of making and teaching disciples. Typical sermons because of the audience, have to appeal to the unlearned, lowest, or average listener. And thus, that is where the audience stays. Lecturing is proven to not be the best form of instruction, even far from good. The best and greatest form of instruction is discussion, teaching in small groups, or practically speaking - 'talking with one-another'. Memory, understanding, and practical application of the Christian message is exponentially improved through the practice of learning 'together' around Gods Word. Preaching and teaching are not the same words, preaching was primarily for the unsaved or unknowing. Teaching is for the believer, and teaching means you discuss with the student, or with one another. A real teacher knows what the student is getting or not getting. A real disciple maker knows the person they are discipling and dialogs with them, that does not happen in a sermon. The tradition of sermons should be replaced with the original concept of meeting together around tables, getting to talk with one another and getting to know one another - yes on a Sunday. Sing with one another, pray with one another, talk and learn 'with' one another. I pray that you 'all' be 'disciples', not sheep.
 
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zelosravioli

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Petunia, being you don't have many alternatives, tell the THE pastor - if after all this time there are not 'other' people in the congregation that have 'grown' to where they can train and disciple others - as he should be doing - then he needs to find another occupation. If you don't have anyone else by now, then how effective is he really? The main ambition of ministry is to make disciples, not fill buildings with dumb sheep. The pastor down the street here had the same ambitions as your pastor, my best friend lost $40,000 in one of our pastors ambitious 'growth' real estate deals, and others lost as well. Don't promise anything to this false idea. Have a quarter of the church rotate meeting in each others homes on Sunday mornings, that works really well for some churches, think about the positive impact that might have on some communities. Christians should be able to congregate closer to their own neighborhood if possible. Find 'smaller' buildings, but let yourselves attend each 'others' groups (pastors hate this because of their addiction to paychecks).
 
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petunia72

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Petunia, being you don't have many alternatives, tell the THE pastor - if after all this time there are not 'other' people in the congregation that have 'grown' to where they can train and disciple others - as he should be doing - then he needs to find another occupation. If you don't have anyone else by now, then how effective is he really? The main ambition of ministry is to make disciples, not fill buildings with dumb sheep. The pastor down the street here had the same ambitions as your pastor, my best friend lost $40,000 in one of our pastors ambitious 'growth' real estate deals, and others lost as well. Don't promise anything to this false idea. Have a quarter of the church rotate meeting in each others homes on Sunday mornings, that works really well for some churches, think about the positive impact that might have on some communities. Christians should be able to congregate closer to their own neighborhood if possible. Find 'smaller' buildings, but let yourselves attend each 'others' groups (pastors hate this because of their addiction to paychecks).

I actually love this idea, and it's what I've had on my heart for a while now. I don't know what to call it....home church, life group, bible study, or whatever....but I long for genuine community.
 
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Barney

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As I indicated earlier, leaving a church you've been a part of for a long time should be a very last resort.

You can stay at a church, while declining to invest your time or money into anything your church is doing of which you disagree. Designate your tithes to things you support.

You can stay at a church and be a positive influence. Talk, in love and tact, to the pastor. Talk, without hints of conspiracy, with other church members. Share your views and concerns with them.

Don't take too hard the views that may just be a few others. If one person tells you to stay home if you're not going to vote for more money to go to the already bloated public schools, that's just one person telling you that. There's probably more people than you think with your view, but they feel too intimidated to speak up.

Finally, remember that we're all human. Most pastors really want to grow their churches and this leads even many good pastors into compromises they shouldn't be making.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I don't want an uneducated amateur giving me a sermon. Those people can do Sunday School and devotionals. The job of pastor is big enough that they should be paid.
I agree. I want someone who knows the Bible. I can read uneducated people’s opinions on God in blog posts all over the internet or on YouTube.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?

I would have a very hard time staying in a church such as that. It would probably be hard due to all of your good works and involvement in your church to leave but, does not sound like the gospel is being preached?

When the church is more about entertaining the people than worshiping the holy God it's time to find a new church.

We have changed churches for this reason a couple of times and it always worked out for the better. We are now in a very solid Bible teaching church and happy.

M-Bob
 
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2Timothy2:15

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I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?

I came from a church just like this. It sounds exactly the same. That pastor was also abusive. He is really out to build his own kingdom, not God's kingdom. More people mean more money. They always make it sound spiritual like they want to see people saved but look at their fruit. How many times has your pastor came by your house? I doubt in 9 years he has never shown up. Has he even taken you out for lunch? Has he shown genuine interest in your walk outside the church walls? This is really about money with these guys and feeding their own ego. I would bet you hear a lot of sermons on "serving" and "tithing". You probably notice many people that do not seem to ever grow? Probably notice when people leave no one knows where they are? Or even worse when someone leaves they are branded a rebel or Absolom, Jezebel, or something like that?
 
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2Timothy2:15

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If the pastor is asking for more money than you already give, he's in the wrong, I don't believe pastors should be paid anyway, theirs plenty of people in the church that can give a sermon, why not have them do the sermon, and stop paying the pastor, it may make your church better to have different people give the sermon each week.


He is asking about money because that is his motivation and it's going in his pocket somehow. Hirelings.

BTW I agree, a pastor should not be paid, period. The bible even tells us that.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Verses please.

Acts 18, Acts 20 and


1 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

(they did not take salaries) not just Paul

6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.

9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

They all were working to provide for themselves labouring night and day. Why so they would not be chargeable to ANY of you - meaning no one owed them a salary nor did they expect it.

How is it that there is SO much evidence of this in scripture, not just Paul not charging but all the Apostles yet it is totally ignored by the hirelings today who simply want to justify their salaries.

10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:


1 Thessalonians 4

9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

Why is Paul telling them to work with their hands? Because this is the model, the model he is doing through example and what he expects. Why...verse 12 tells us.

12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Walking honestly = working and providing for yourself and others, just as Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, and Titus ALL did

2 Thessalonians 3

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

There it is Paul was not just simply foregoing some false right to a salary he explains CLEARLY - all should work, including pastors.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Acts 18, Acts 20 and


1 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in unto you, that it was not in vain:

2 But even after that we had suffered before, and were shamefully entreated, as ye know, at Philippi, we were bold in our God to speak unto you the gospel of God with much contention.

3 For our exhortation was not of deceit, nor of uncleanness, nor in guile:

4 But as we were allowed of God to be put in trust with the gospel, even so we speak; not as pleasing men, but God, which trieth our hearts.

5 For neither at any time used we flattering words, as ye know, nor a cloke of covetousness; God is witness:

(they did not take salaries) not just Paul

6 Nor of men sought we glory, neither of you, nor yet of others, when we might have been burdensome, as the apostles of Christ.

7 But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:

8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.

9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.

They all were working to provide for themselves labouring night and day. Why so they would not be chargeable to ANY of you - meaning no one owed them a salary nor did they expect it.

How is it that there is SO much evidence of this in scripture, not just Paul not charging but all the Apostles yet it is totally ignored by the hirelings today who simply want to justify their salaries.

10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:


1 Thessalonians 4

9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

Why is Paul telling them to work with their hands? Because this is the model, the model he is doing through example and what he expects. Why...verse 12 tells us.

12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Walking honestly = working and providing for yourself and others, just as Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, and Titus ALL did

2 Thessalonians 3

7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;

8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:

9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.

10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

There it is Paul was not just simply foregoing some false right to a salary he explains CLEARLY - all should work, including pastors.
Paul took money. Money was collected for ministry.

And please point out the exact phrase and verse above because I didn’t see it. Whatever scripture proved your point.

Also working as you put it how does that equate to not needing a salary?
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Paul took money. Money was collected for ministry.

And please point out the exact phrase and verse above because I didn’t see it. Whatever scripture proved your point.

Also working as you put it how does that equate to not needing a salary?

Paul did not take money for himself, the bible tells us Paul worked to support himself making tents. Paul took up a collection for those in Jeruslem who were suffering famine and persecution. And he appointed others to handle it, no money went through his hands. If you actually read acts 18 and acts 20 1 corinthians 9 closely Paul tells us he NEVER coveted their silver and gold. And before you misquote a worker is worth his wages, read the passage in context carefully and you will see the wages were food.

I have learned I can lead people to the word but only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes. So many are indoctrinated in mans system they are blind. I gave you plenty of scripture now it is up to you to study. I am not going to do a lengthy exegesis here to prove my point when people are unwilling to open their bibles and read it for themselves. That ironically is why we have so many false teachers preying on the body of Christ. People are lazy and want everything spoon fed to them. Be blessed and study the topic for yourself, God Bless.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Paul did not take money for himself, the bible tells us Paul worked to support himself making tents. Paul took up a collection for those in Jeruslem who were suffering famine and persecution. And he appointed others to handle it, no money went through his hands. If you actually read acts 18 and acts 20 1 corinthians 9 closely Paul tells us he NEVER coveted their silver and gold. And before you misquote a worker is worth his wages, read the passage in context carefully and you will see the wages were food.

I have learned I can lead people to the word but only the Holy Spirit can open their eyes. So many are indoctrinated in mans system they are blind. I gave you plenty of scripture now it is up to you to study. I am not going to do a lengthy exegesis here to prove my point when people are unwilling to open their bibles and read it for themselves. That ironically is why we have so many false teachers preying on the body of Christ. People are lazy and want everything spoon fed to them. Be blessed and study the topic for yourself, God Bless.
So let me understand and if I am incorrect let me know.

Your stance is because one apostle did not take money for ministry that equates to pastors should never draw salaries or any money compensation?

Also, if a conversation with you includes jabs at me or people like your last paragraph, let me know and we can stop conversation going now because I don’t want to get upset on my weekend off work. So I can avoid that.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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So let me understand and if I am incorrect let me know.

Your stance is because one apostle did not take money for ministry that equates to pastors should never draw salaries or any money compensation?

Also, if a conversation with you includes jabs at me or people like your last paragraph, let me know and we can stop conversation going now because I don’t want to get upset on my weekend off work. So I can avoid that.

It was not just Paul if you read the chapters and the NT closely studying this topic. It was Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Luke, Peter, Mark, all of them. Not a single one took a "salary" or was paid for their services. Jesus even gave a sermon on the hireling. Study it please. It is not "my" stance, it is the word of God and the bible.

The last part of my last post was generalized statements and not jabs. But if asking people to actually study the word for themselves upsets them I am not sure what to say about that.
 
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Oldmantook

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I've been feeling out of touch with our church for a couple of years now, at least. Lots of little things, really, and I know that's normal. We're all human, and we all have different beliefs and ways of going about things. In the 9+ years we've been attending this church, our Pastor has tried 3 times to raise money to build new. He's all about more, more, more people. He brags most Sundays about how many kids are in youth group, etc. Now, I know it's a good thing to have a church bursting with people, and to have a youth group that is thriving. But what is concerning me is that I feel like it's quantity over quality at this point. Youth group consists of games, games, games. Last week he put a video on Facebook of a new dinosaur costume-clad person running and jumping into the crowd, kids going wild, etc. Youth group has become just an extension of public school, and all the junk that comes with it.
The last time he tried raising money for a new church, he asked my husband to buy a worthless piece of land that the church owns & hasn't been able to sell. My husband agreed to buy it, even though there's nothing we could do with it but pay taxes on it every year. Well, that time the new church thing fell through, so we were off-the-hook, so to speak. Now, the money-raising efforts this time are off the charts. I've had different people stop me and ask what I think of his tactics to raise money. I'm getting the feeling that many people are uncomfortable with it, as am I. We haven't been to any of the planning meetings, and do not plan on going to the big dinner this weekend where we are supposed to make our financial commitment for the next 3 years. I've prayed about it, and I don't feel anything at all. I haven't received an answer about how much to give, so I don't feel comfortable going and writing down a number. I've told my husband that he is welcome to go and donate any amount that he feels God is leading him to, but I don't think he wants to go without me.
How should I pray about this?
My 2 cents is trust your instincts - especially as other people have raised similar concerns as that is a red flag. Church size is irrelevant. Jesus' church was whittled down to 12 disciples. The real question is out of those attending church, how many are actually being discipled? What specific measures are in place to ascertain whether people are being discipled or not? I've been through seminary, served FT on a church staff and been part of the tiniest of churches as well as the largest of congregations. Not one of those churches had measures in place to determine whether those in attendance were being properly discipled or not. The Great Commission commands us to create disciples; not just converts. It appears that your pastor's goal is to raise more money to build a larger facility in order to attract more people. The pertinent question is what is the spiritual maturity of those who presently attend? Jesus attracted large crowds of people but as time went on the crowds dwindled because he put spiritual demands on them that no longer made his message attractive.

You live in a small community and may not have much other church options. Have you considered a house church? You and you husband could start one in your own home. I am biased as we've been doing that for years and I've learned more in house church with other like-minded believers then all my years attending church. Whatever you decide, don't commit any of your own monies unless you and your husband have a peace about it. If you have questions about a house church, let me know.
 
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