TEC new creed

Naomi4Christ

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Following on from points made in David Virtue, checking in , perhaps we could start a new thread to discuss this important initiative, rather than having it buried in a "welcome" thread. We can ask the mods to change the thread title if appropriate.

I am not familiar with TEC's new Prayer book, but I do recognise the need for new Prayer books for each new generation, as we are called to proclaim the gospel afresh and that means adapting to the local culture at the time, but without changing the fact that the Christian faith is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow.

Clearly the idea of a maternal god has been around for a long time, especially within paganism, but it seems that suddenly fluidity of sex is all the rage (in the U.K., for sure). It is amazing how many irreversible decisions are being made without a proper public debate, and that individuals are making life-long decisions without a lot of checks and balances.

It is right that we as a church take a leadership position in society in debating these issues, even right down to making new credal statements in order to make sense of the society we live in.

As an evangelical, it is important to me that Scripture is supreme. Whatever our creed is, it should be accurate to Genesis 1, John 1 and all the other verses that the Nicene creed emerges from.

The other thing is that we don't own the Nicene creed. It is shared by all orthodox churches. Coming up with a new creed will fracture the relationships we have with these churches as well as with other Anglican churches.

Is this proposed creed something that will be said in most services in most churches, or is it an alternative for niche occasions? Is it something that will be in an annexe of the prayerbook, or in the main part. Is it a bit like occasionally dipping into The Message as opposed to more traditional versions of the bible?
 
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SteveCaruso

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Aye, where there are a handful of folks who want "God the Mother" in the Creeds or other prayers, they are not of sufficient number to do anything about it.

For us it's not. We already resolved to drop it a while back, like most eccumenists. It's still in the prayer book, though, as there hasn't been a revision since.
 
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Naomi4Christ

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Aye, where there are a handful of folks who want "God the Mother" in the Creeds or other prayers, they are not of sufficient number to do anything about it.

For us it's not. We already resolved to drop it a while back, like most eccumenists. It's still in the prayer book, though, as there hasn't been a revision since.
Who is "us"?
 
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Naomi4Christ

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The Episcopal Church, specifically. Sorry, I thought my affiliation was more obvious. :)
In the USA?

My daughter worships at a church that calls itself Episcopal. I visited it last weekend, but not in the USA.

We didn't have any liturgy at all, not even the Lord's Prayer, and that was at the main Sunday morning service.
 
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SteveCaruso

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In the USA?

My daughter worships at a church that calls itself Episcopal. I visited it last weekend, but not in the USA.

We didn't have any liturgy at all, not even the Lord's Prayer, and that was at the main Sunday morning service.

Yes, the Episcopal Church in the USA (which also includes USA territories, some churches in Latin America, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and a handful in Europe that were founded for Americans living there).

The other Anglican churches with "Episcopal" in their name are the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Anglican Episcopal Church of Brazil, the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East, Episcopal Church in the Philippines, Province of the Episcopal Church of South Sudan and Sudan, Episcopal Church of Cuba, etc.

Your average Episcopal Church in the USA, whether low or high churchmanship, would have liturgy and follow the structure of worship in the BCP. There are a few outliers and a few experiments.
 
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Naomi4Christ

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Yes, the Episcopal Church in the USA (which also includes USA territories, some churches in Latin America, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, and a handful in Europe that were founded for Americans living there).

The other Anglican churches with "Episcopal" in their name are the Scottish Episcopal Church, the Anglican Episcopal Church of Brazil, the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East, Episcopal Church in the Philippines, Province of the Episcopal Church of South Sudan and Sudan, Episcopal Church of Cuba, etc.

Your average Episcopal Church in the USA, whether low or high churchmanship, would have liturgy and follow the structure of worship in the BCP. There are a few outliers and a few experiments.
My daughter's church is in the Scottish Episcopal Church, but it could easily have been one of the big London COfE churches, such as HTB.
 
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seeking.IAM

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I also am unaware of any intention for The Episcopal Church in the U.S. to change the Creed outside of removal of the Filioque, an action I support since it is a later addition to the original Creed. I can't say what those Scot's are doing.

Prayer book revision is a different matter than actual practice, however. I am a traditionalist so some things gripe me. I found myself out-of-state on Ash Wednesday and found a church to go to for service. I wandered into one of our U.S. Episcopal churches that took what I consider to be great liberties with our prayer book liturgy, including adulteration of our Lord's Prayer. A different subject, I know, but I think it is the height of arrogance for anyone to think they can improve on a prayer given to us by our Lord. I also suspect it is the height of arrogance for someone to think they can provide a better or truer version of our Creed than the early Christians who wrote it. Just my opinion on the matter.
 
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Naomi4Christ

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I also am unaware of any intention for The Episcopal Church in the U.S. to change the Creed outside of removal of the Filioque, an action I support since it is a later addition to the original Creed. I can't say what those Scot's are doing.

Prayer book revision is a different matter than actual practice, however. I am a traditionalist so some things gripe me. I found myself out-of-state on Ash Wednesday and found a church to go to for service. I wandered into one of our U.S. Episcopal churches that took what I consider to be great liberties with our prayer book liturgy, including adulteration of our Lord's Prayer. A different subject, I know, but I think it is the height of arrogance for anyone to think they can improve on a prayer given to us by our Lord. I also suspect it is the height of arrogance for someone to think they can provider a better or truer version of our Creed than the early Christians who wrote it. Just my opinion on the matter.
Is there a different version of the Lord's Prayer that are different in meaning.

We use two Lord's Prayers in our fellowship:

The main one we use is:

Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as in heaven.
Give us today our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins
as we forgive those who sin against us.
Lead us not into temptation
but deliver us from evil.
For the kingdom, the power,
and the glory are yours
now and for ever.
Amen.


The other is:

Our Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come;
thy will be done;
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation;
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power and the glory,
for ever and ever.
Amen.


To me, they are equivalent, but the first one is in contemporary language and pretty much straight from the NIV bible, which is what we use.

I think it is important to update Prayer books regularly. We will always have the 1662, and iirc, all revisions start from there rather than the current Prayer book, so you don't end up with "Chinese Whispers".

Mission is a very important part of our church and telling new people about the Good News of Christ has to be done in words that they understand, and in ways that they relate to.
 
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Albion

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Don't put it past TEC to produce something for a new prayer book that's along the lines of this version from the church in New Zealand--

The Lord's Prayer
(from the New Zealand Prayer Book
Rev ed.: He Karakia Mihinare O Aotearoa)

Eternal Spirit, Earth-maker, Pain-bearer, Life-giver,
Source of all that is and that shall be,
Father and Mother of us all,
Loving God, in whom is heaven:
The hallowing of your name echo through the universe!
The way of your justice be followed by the peoples of the world!
Your heavenly will be done by all created beings!
Your commonwealth of peace and freedom sustain our hope and come on earth.
With the bread we need for today, feed us.
In the hurts we absorb from one another, forgive us.
In times of temptation and test, strengthen us.
From trials too great to endure, spare us.
From the grip of all that is evil, free us.
For you reign in the glory of the power that is love, now and for ever. Amen
 
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Naomi4Christ

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Don't put it past TEC to produce something for a new prayer book that's along the lines of this version from the church in New Zealand--

The Lord's Prayer
(from the New Zealand Prayer Book
Rev ed.: He Karakia Mihinare O Aotearoa)

Eternal Spirit, Earth-maker, Pain-bearer, Life-giver,
Source of all that is and that shall be,
Father and Mother of us all,
Loving God, in whom is heaven:
The hallowing of your name echo through the universe!
The way of your justice be followed by the peoples of the world!
Your heavenly will be done by all created beings!
Your commonwealth of peace and freedom sustain our hope and come on earth.
With the bread we need for today, feed us.
In the hurts we absorb from one another, forgive us.
In times of temptation and test, strengthen us.
From trials too great to endure, spare us.
From the grip of all that is evil, free us.
For you reign in the glory of the power that is love, now and for ever. Amen

You can see the Lord's Prayer in there, but they are not taken from the Gospels.

I don't mind something like that for a home group or retreat, but I would struggle with it for a mainstream liturgy.

I am sure that all of us here have expanded on each line of the Lord's Prayer to meditate on what it really means for us in our lives today. That doesn't mean it should be mainstream liturgy.
 
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SteveCaruso

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Don't put it past TEC to produce something for a new prayer book that's along the lines of this version from the church in New Zealand

Do I need to take out my "flag on play" meme again? :)

The New Zealand prayer – or anything like it – would never get past the General Convention. It's far too Neil Douglas-Klotz.
 
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Naomi4Christ

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And fringe opinions are not representative of the whole.
And hopefully there is a system of checks and balances to modify these fringe opinions.

However, what we have to remember is that Anglicanism represents the full breadth of the Christian faith, so there should be mechanisms for accommodating and valuing fringe beliefs.
 
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