Does 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 teach that we are not saved by faith?

[Bible Highlighter]

Reading what you have written here in essence is just about everything that I myself could write as well, with one big exception that I see is the difference between what is said and what I would say, you start out in Eph 2:8-10 with the first two verses and completely agree that one does not earn their salvation and then start with my denying that a holy life should follow, which is not true nor have I ever stated that. V10 of Ephesians went on the say "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. From this point down it goes farther in the salvation part which is not mentioned in scripture. Nothing from the point of salvation by grace through faith is needed for salvation but because of salvation, good works are the by product of being saved. We become new creations in Christ and He begins to teach us the wisdom through His word and the Holy Spirit guides us in the way of righteousness. No where can anyone show where I or any of the others that I have read ever state that sinful living is a goal nor approved of, God forbid Paul said to the idea of shall we sin that grace may abound. But all the holy living in the world after salvation does not complete your salvation, it does show the growing process of having been sanctified and following the leadership of the Holy Spirit and not yielding to the flesh. The rest of the post is contrasting false professors of the flesh which is what is condemned by scripture. When God seals the repentant sinner saved by grace through faith alone, He is very much aware of everything the person will perform and better yet, know for sure that this heart is bent toward the will of God and those are the ones sealed unto the day of redemption, and along with Paul we that are solely trusting His word of eternal life say, I have confident of this very thing that He who began the good work in me will perform it to the end, to the praise of His glory. Salvation and its process is His gift to all who believe on Him and all a gift from Him, without whom we can do nothing pleasing to Him. This is the difference which I see in the separation of our understanding. The credit for holy living goes to the subject of this powerful verse, Phil2:13 for it is God working in you to will and to do of His good purpose. Recognizing this all credit goes to Him, and if we love Him we keep His commandments John 14:15 & 14:21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.”

I used to think that works was not for a part of God's plan of salvation but they were a by-product of salvation, too. But I have come to the point in my life as a believer to not fear a lack of acceptance by what other men think and I realized that this was a contradiction according to the Scriptures and basic logic.

Jesus says, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).
To me, it doesn't get any clearer than that unless of course a person wants to twist the words of Jesus around because they don't like them. You enter life by keeping the commandments. Plain and simple.
1 John 1:7 is another good one. It says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 1:7 is the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice that many Christians today ignore. We walk in the light (i.e. Christ's teachings in living holy) and then His blood cleanses us from all sin. That's how it works!
Philippians 2:12 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Why work out your salvation with fear and trembling if we are saved by grace alone? Sure doesn't make sense unless somebody just told you over and over and over and over over again that you are saved by grace alone.

Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith, it is impossible to please God. James says he will show his faith by his works and that faith without works is dead (James 2:17-18). Faith works in love (Galatians 5:6). Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26 says there is an "obedience to the faith."

Faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), faith can be departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), faith can be denied by a person by them not providing for their own (1 Timothy 5:8), faith can be erred from (or strayed away) by the love of money (1 Timothy 6:10), or by making profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called (1 Timothy 6:20-21).

In fact, do our works matter in regards to our salvation? Well, according to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ the answer to this question would be a.... "yes." For in Matthew 25:30, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. In Matthew 25:41-46 shows that the one who did not help the poor in this life was cast into everlasting fire.

In fact, in Hebrews 12:14 says, Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
Are you pursuing after peace with all and living holy?

Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. It does not say to those who disobey Him. For disobedience to Jesus would have to be true if we were saved by Grace alone and nothing else. But the Scriptures do not teach that.

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I used to think that works was not for a part of God's plan of salvation but they were a by-product of salvation, too. But I have come to the point in my life as a believer to not fear a lack of acceptance by what other men think and I realized that this was a contradiction according to the Scriptures and basic logic.

Jesus says, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).
To me, it doesn't get any clearer than that unless of course a person wants to twist the words of Jesus around because they don't like them. You enter life by keeping the commandments. Plain and simple.
1 John 1:7 is another good one. It says if we walk in the light as He (Christ) is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
1 John 1:7 is the true imputation of Christ's sacrifice that many Christians today ignore. We walk in the light (i.e. Christ's teachings in living holy) and then His blood cleanses us from all sin. That's how it works!
Philippians 2:12 says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Why work out your salvation with fear and trembling if we are saved by grace alone? Sure doesn't make sense unless somebody just told you over and over and over and over over again that you are saved by grace alone.

Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith, it is impossible to please God. James says he will show his faith by his works and that faith without works is dead (James 2:17-18). Faith works in love (Galatians 5:6). Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26 says there is an "obedience to the faith."

Faith can be shipwrecked (1 Timothy 1:19), faith can be departed from (1 Timothy 4:1), faith can be denied by a person by them not providing for their own (1 Timothy 5:8), faith can be erred from (or strayed away) by the love of money (1 Timothy 6:10), or by making profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called (1 Timothy 6:20-21).

In fact, do our works matter in regards to our salvation? Well, according to the words of our Lord Jesus Christ the answer to this question would be a.... "yes." For in Matthew 25:30, the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness. In Matthew 25:41-46 shows that the one who did not help the poor in this life was cast into everlasting fire.

In fact, in Hebrews 12:14 says, Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
Are you pursuing after peace with all and living holy?

Hebrews 5:9 says that Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. It does not say to those who disobey Him. For disobedience to Jesus would have to be true if we were saved by Grace alone and nothing else. But the Scriptures do not teach that.

Far too much here to answer them all, but each of these are about summed up in your first one, not reading your own verses and applying them, John 1:9 if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. You state of the believers sinless state after conversion, what sins are these that we are cleanse us?

All you posted agree with my statements that I have used to show that works are a by product of being saved, and cannot be accomplished except by faith in action, otherwise as the quote from James and others: Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith, it is impossible to please God. James says he will show his faith by his works and that faith without works is dead (James 2:17-18). Faith works in love (Galatians 5:6). All of these are correct, it is taking them out of their own meaning and applying a false application to prove one's error of application.

 

[aiki]

I always point out to all--Learn and apply ALL that Jesus taught, Obeying those teachings is what proves ones love for Jesus. No Church I ever attended actually taught what Jesus taught. Those teachers were taught a certain religions dogmas in the schools of men and that's what they get paid to teach.

And how are you not guilty of the same dogmatism in what you've posted? In fact, you sound very dogmatic, asserting unequivocally your opinion about teachers in the Church, and declaring flatly that only in obeying ALL of what Jesus taught can one prove one loves him. Yes, in your post above you are at least as guilty of teaching religious dogma as any you've criticized.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Bible no where uses the phrase, "entrance into God's plan of salvation." Salvation is not a "plan," salvation is a Person: Jesus Christ. (1 Jn. 5:11-13)

In regards to your strange idea that God does not a have a plan of salvation for men to gain entrance into His Kingdom: This is simply not true. God does have a plan of salvation for somebody to gain entrance into His Kingdom and to be saved.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12).

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

"Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand (Matthew 3:2).

"...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17).

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3).

Romans 10:9, “If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Acts of the Apostles 16:31, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved.”

As for Jesus being eternal life and salvation according to 1 John 5:12: Yes, I agree with this 100%. I have mentioned this many times before and it is proof that you cannot abide in sin and or be out of fellowship with Jesus and be saved as some Eternal Security proponents teach. But Jesus must be received in order to have the life that is a part of His being. One cannot come to Jesus their own way, either. They have to repent and hear the gospel. If they hear another gospel or if they do not repent, then they are accepting another Jesus.

There is no such thing as "initial salvation."

So you were never initially saved? That is just silly. Were you always saved?

The phrase does not appear anywhere in Scripture. And as far as I'm concerned, the end of Titus 3:5 just further makes my case for me. It is the shed blood of Christ that cleanses me from sin and the Holy Spirit who gives to me spiritual life. I simply receive these things; I cannot work to earn them, or contribute to my own salvation.

Salvation is an inheritance (Galatians 5:21) which freely given to any person who truly becomes a son of God (1 John 3:1) as long as that person remains that way (John 15:1-11). A person cannot earn salvation because it is received as a free gift, but they can lose the free gift given to them by God. Here is a list of verses clearly showing that a believer can fall away from the faith.

Ezekiel 18:24 - If a believer sins, all their previous righteousness will not be remembered.
Hebrews 3:12-14 - A believer's heart can be hardened by sin and they can depart from the living God.
Hebrews 4:11 - Believers are to labour to enter into His rest, unless they fall after the same example of unbelief like the Israelites.
Hebrews 10:26-30 - If believers willfully sin, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.
Hebrews 12:15 - Believers are to look after each other so that none of them falls from the grace of God.

In fact, we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). Obviously you don't like the sound of such a verse in your Bible, so you would naturally would seek to change it (of course).

Now you're just indulging in Strawman argument. I focused on the particular part of the verse that I did because it was pertinent to the point I was making. Doing so in no way indicates that I ignore the rest of the Bible. In fact, in my first post to this thread (post #54) I quoted Titus 3:3-7!

But you only focused on that part of the words that makes your belief true. You need to also provide a balanced approach and explain those verses that do in fact shred apart your belief like a grizzly bear would shred apart a pile of garbage bags with his sharp claws.

People deny God in their minds and hearts before they deny Him in their works. And those who do reveal not only their degeneracy but their unregeneracy. Titus 1:16 speaks of spiritually unregenerate people, not those who are saved. This is very clear when you consider verse 16 in the light of verse 15:

Titus 1:15-16
15 To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.
16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

I don't see, then, how this passage does anything to diminish what I pointed out from Titus 3:5. No one is saved by dint of their own effort; good works have nothing to do with becoming an adopted child of God. The passage above does not deny this or qualify it. What it does explain is the relationship between what one thinks and believes and one's behaviour. Those who are defiled and unbelieving act like it. Those who are genuinely born-again, also act like it.

No. Unbelief can happen to regenerated believers. Hebrews 3 says,

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end" (Hebrews 3:14).

WE are made partakers of Christ... IF....IF....IF ..... WE hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end. WE... must hold stedfast.

We are to also take heed. We.... and not some unregenerate false professors. WE must take heed that that any of us believers will have an evil heart of unbelief.

12 "Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." (Hebrews 3:12-13).

In fact, sin is merely unbelief (John 16:8-9). It is why verse 13 says not to be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. You make light of sin and say that it is not all that important to stop sinning because nobody is perfect. But the Bible says be not deceived by the deceitfulness of sin. Why? Because it can harden your heart can cause unbelief whereby you can depart from the living God.

In addition, Jesus, and His followers did not provide warnings that would be written down as Scripture for us just so that we could ignore them. He that endures to the end shall be saved (Matthew 24:13). He that overcomes will he give the crown of life (James 1:12). Why say these things to us believers in Scripture if we are just going to automatically do them? It makes no sense.

Can a regenerated person fall away? Yes.

In chapter 10 of Hebrews, we read this warning: "Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" (Hebrews 10:28-29).

And your point is? I don't hold to such a view of the Gospel. Do you?

Ephesians 2:9 says nothing about an "entrance." It speaks only of the absence of our good works in God's salvation of us. Verse 10 (which I left out for reasons of pertinency, not convenience) speaks of the consequences of one's salvation, the fruit of it, not the means of retaining it. We are saved unto good works, not by good works.

Yes, and? Holiness and obedience to God's commands are the fruit of salvation. They are not, however, the means of it.

Titus 3:5-7
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Nope. Not only is Justification (Which is receiving God's gift - which is not of works) for salvation, but Sanctification (Holy living by the power of God) is also a part of salvation. Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Oh, and yes. You are doing it again. You are not quoting Ephesians 2:10, and Titus 3:8 again (even after I pointed it out to you). Whether consciously or unconsciously, you don't like those verses; It is why you continue to not quote them.

No, there is no contradiction, only poor thinking on your part. If you should find yourself playing chess with the world's greatest chess master, who do you think will win? You are free to make whatever moves you like in the course of the game but right from the beginning, your loss of the game is certain. Have you been forced to lose? In a way, yes. But not in a way that suspends or contravenes your free will.

God works on a level far beyond any chess master, of course. He has known from before the universe existed how you would respond to His drawing, and convicting, and illumination of your mind and heart to His saving truth. He knew before He ever began to work to save you exactly how to do so to bring about your free choice to be saved. Against this sort of knowledge you stand no chance of resisting, not because you aren't free to resist - you are - but because every choice, every response, every thought and desire you might or will have concerning the Gospel God has foreseen and taken into account in His salvation of you. Does God force us, then, to be saved? Not in the sense in which, say, a police officer forces an arrest of a criminal. Our freedom to choose is not negated as it would be in such an instance. I don't, then, see any contradiction in my freely choosing to be saved and God's omniscient and overcoming power of persuasion that makes my salvation inevitable.

You are talking in circles and contradicting yourself. If something is inevitable you have no choice in the matter. It is inevitable. Yes, we can make free will choices in other things, but if we have no free will choice in regards to a particlar thing that is inevitable or fate, then you do not have free will in regards to that. For example: The Judgment is inevitable. Nobody has a choice to opt of the Judgment. Everyone will be there. But choosing salvation or refusing salvation is your choice.

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live." (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Jesus says,
""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

By the way, you ignored my question:

More like you wrote a lot back and I did not catch it. I did not intentionally seek to ignore your question.

Why could God not teach a person to deny ungodliness even if He forced their salvation? I don't see how the latter would prevent the former.

To teach somebody something involves two people or beings who have free will to act freely according to their own natures. Teaching involves a person or being telling another person or being about some kind of knowledge or information. Teaching is not forced upon a person. The person receiving the teaching has to have their mind open to instruction in order to receive it. They have to excercise their mind of their own free will to remember the instruction. If somebody was forced with knowledge upon them (like somebody being tied down in a chair and they were fed images and words over and over) then that means they were brainwashed and not taught openly of their own free will. There is a difference. God does not brain wash us. God teaches us. It's why we read His Word openly of our own free will and it is not force fed to us. Nobody holds us down and keeps our eyes open with tape forcing us to read God's Word 24/7. God does not operate like MK ultra.

I explained in my last post why I think the term "cooperating" is a poor one in describing the dynamic between us and God. As I said, God is not your co-pilot, He is your life. "Cooperating" doesn't communicate this fact well at all.

Paul tells us in Galatians 5:16, "Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh."

Paul is telling us to do something. He is telling us to walk in the Spirit. It is not something that is automatic. If we are told to walk in the Spirit, this means we are to cooperate with God. To say so otherwise is to force an odd belief that simply does not exist.

If I told you to walk with me so we can talk so as to get your mind off other things, it would involve some kind of cooperation on your part for you to walk and talk with me. If I programmed you as a part of an MK ultra programming technique, I would not say for you to walk with me in order to get your mind off other things. I would just program you as a part of some kind of wake word. Paul is telling us to walk after the Spirit so as not to fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But you really don't believe you can "not fulfill the lusts of the flesh" within this life because you believe you will always sin or fulfill the lusts of the flesh in this life.

And...some more Strawman arguing from you. In fact, I do most certainly believe in holy living, but I don't think anyone is ever in their condition entirely and perfectly holy.

Holy means clean and separate. If you are not living clean completely, then your living dirty. God is holy. God says for us to be ye holy because He is holy (1 Peter 1:16).

In our spiritual position in Christ, clothed in his perfect righteousness, we are wholly sanctified, but in our daily living, our condition, the truth of our fully sanctified position is worked out progressively.

Nope. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he [Christ] is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Oh, by the way, fellowship is cooperation. Fellowship is not something that is forced upon you. Jesus says abide in me and my words. Jesus does not snap his fingers and say to Peter, "you will now perfectly follow me." That did not happen. Peter had free will and he denied Jesus. Jesus did not force regenerate Peter to be a mindless puppet. In fact, the very fact that you can sin suggests that you are not a slave to righteousness or God's will. God's will is for us to be holy. So your idea or notion that we are slaves to His will is just silly to say the least. For God does not want anyone to sin. In fact, God can stop everyone from sinning. But He doesn't because He wants man to choose of his own free will to do what is good and right. To say so otherwise means God wants man to sin. But we know that is not possible because God is holy and good.

So it is that Paul writes,

1 Corinthians 1:2
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours...

and the writer of Hebrews writes,

Sanctification means to make clean.
There are two different kinds of Sanctification mentioned in the Bible. There is Positional Sanctification of God that He does to you (like giving you a new heart, and giving you His imputed righteousness, etc.) and then there is Progressive Sanctification or Practical Sanctification (Whereby you live holy according to the working of God moving within you).

But again you are made holy or clean by walking after the light of Jesus Christ (See 1 John 1:7).
We are also told to walk in a way so as to PLEASE God. For Sanctification (Practical Sanctification) is the will of God for your life. Everyone should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor.

1 "Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to PLEASE God, so ye would abound more and more.
2 For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour" (1 Thessalonians 4:1-4).

But in your belief, there is no such thing as knowing how to possess your vessel in sanctification and honor because you believe you will always sin or be dirty.

Hebrews 10:14
14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Sanctification includes putting away even your minor faults. Nowhere does this say you will be a slave to your sin in this life with you being double minded or with you serving two masters.

2 Corinthians 7:1 says that we are to cleanse our selves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. So here we see that the perfecting of holiness is all about cleansing ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit. But you really don't believe that.

This last verse is particularly interesting because it very clearly states our perfected position in Christ and also the process of sanctification that goes on in the life of every believer.

But we are told to know how to possess our vessel in sanctification and honor. It is not an automatic thing. Yes, God helps us to be sanctified, but we also have to cooperate with Him in living holy, too. For you do not just live holy without making no effort on your part. You actually have to put in effort, as well. If this was not the case, then you would be perfectly walking like Jesus then.

No, I did not. What I actually wrote was:

"Our new life in Christ does not render us entirely free of our fleshly impulses and the sinful habits of the past. Our second birth does give us freedom from bondage to these things, however, and the wherewithal to live "godly in Christ Jesus."

But your not living Godly if you are a slave to sin and or you believe you will always sin. That is a contradiction. Remember, Ezekiel 18:24 says all your previous righteousness will not be remembered if you commit iniquity (or sin).

I specifically state here that no believer is under the power of sin as they once were as an unregenerate person. But we still possess bodies with strong physical urges and needs against which we must sometimes battle. We also have established patterns of behaviour and thought that must be overcome. Being saved doesn't instantly alleviate us of the force of these things in our lives but we do, in the Person of the Holy Spirit, possess all we require to live godly in Christ Jesus.

Yet, the Word of God says,

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13).

In other words, believe this verse above!

No analogy is perfect. You aren't actually a tree, are you? You don't have actual branches, and roots, and bark, do you? No, you don't. Be careful, then, not to stretch an analogy too far. I have seen many apple trees bear stunted or rotten apples. Doesn't mean they aren't apple trees.There are kinds of belief, as the apostle James makes very clear. (Ja. 2:19) The Parable of the Sower and the Seed shows that not every kind of belief, not every kind of positive reception of the seed of the Gospel, results in genuine salvation.

Jesus compared us to a seed that bears fruit. It is in the Parable of the Sower. You either believe that or you don't believe it. Jesus said that the condition of the soil is what determined some to fall away and one other to be fruitful. Those who fell away believed for a while is what the Bible says in Luke. Yet, you don't believe that believers can believe for a while. Well, you do sort of but not exactly. You think they are false professors. But the Bible does not say that in the Parable of the Sower. It said they received the Word of God with joy. They simply did not have any root in God's Word. Meaning, they did not build up their faith in God's Word.

As for James 2:19:

This is not talking about humans but fallen angels. James point here is that we cannot have a belief like that of fallen angels. He is talking to all of us and not to a particular set of believers who cannot help but to be that way. James argument would be destroyed if that was the case. For he is trying to convince us that faith without works is dead. He says in James 2:18, show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith by my works. James is trying to convince us the reader here in James 2.

Side Note:

I will pray whether or not to reply to the rest of your post or not.
So far it seems like you are just ignoring the verses I keep putting forth.
In any event, may God's love shine upon you today.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes. Ephesians 2:8-9 is 100% true. We are "Initially Saved" and or "Ultimately Saved" by God's grace and not works.

There is no ‘initially’ saved vs ‘ultimately’ saved in the Bible.

There is only saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Far too much here to answer them all, but each of these are about summed up in your first one, not reading your own verses and applying them, John 1:9 if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. You state of the believers sinless state after conversion, what sins are these that we are cleanse us?

All you posted agree with my statements that I have used to show that works are a by product of being saved, and cannot be accomplished except by faith in action, otherwise as the quote from James and others: Hebrews 11:6 says that without faith, it is impossible to please God. James says he will show his faith by his works and that faith without works is dead (James 2:17-18). Faith works in love (Galatians 5:6). All of these are correct, it is taking them out of their own meaning and applying a false application to prove one's error of application.

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Life is salvation.

Jesus telling us to keep the commandments is obedience or works.

Believe!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Different Tenses of Salvation:

Past tense:

Titus 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Present Tense:

Philippians 2:12
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

2 Peter 1:10
"be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure..."

Future Tense:

"Our salvation is now nearer than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11).

 

[ToBeLoved]

Different Tenses of Salvation:

Past tense:

Titus 3:5
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;"

Present Tense:

Philippians 2:12
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

2 Peter 1:10
"be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure..."

Future Tense:

"Our salvation is now nearer than when we first believed" (Romans 13:11).

Lol.

Someone who is already saved, has been saved.

As far as the second verse in Phillipians, fear there the Greek word means with reverence, so that only means to take ones salvation and if they have been saved seriously. The same with the next verse.

Like I said. There is no ‘initially’ saved vs ‘ultimately’ saved. Doesn’t exist.

The last verses, our salvation is nearer because our deaths are nearer each day and ultimately eternity and where we spend it.

Do you have other verses?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

“Initially Saved” is the same as saying when I began initially lose weight. There was a beginning to a person’s salvation unless one believes in Universalism.

“Ultimately Saved” is the major reason of how or why we are saved, which is by God’s grace. Even Eternal Security proponents believe one must do something to get saved like calling upon Jesus for salvation and or believing in Him.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Denying the different tenses of salvation is hardcore Eternal Security. A person should prayerfully read about 10-15 articles that are in favor of the subject before folding their arms and shaking their head “no” to it.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Life is salvation.

Jesus telling us to keep the commandments is obedience or works.

Believe!

It would have been great had you answered the question, which verse you posted, that I asked from 1 John 1:9 if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It surely is showing there are going to be some sin to confess, is that not true or what? Please answer, no answer no reply needed. Thanks

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Life is salvation.

Jesus telling us to keep the commandments is obedience or works.

Believe!

If that it in the form of a question, obedience is keeping the commandments and is a work of salvation or a result, both words could be applied, they tell the same thing. Once you grasp the difference of salvation by grace through faith + nothing you are going to be a great witness.

Like this verse you posted Philippians 2:12 "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out(to bring to completion) your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is telling the saints to work out salvation(Eph 2:10 for we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God has prepared before ordained that we should walk in them) which is obedience to obeying the word of God which will show the Holy Spirit is indeed working in them to transform them into the likeness of our Savior Jesus Christ(Rom 8:28-30). The next verse tell us why we are thinking and willing to do His will, v13 for(in the sense of because) it is God(the Holy Spirit leading) working in you to will and to do of His good pleasure. Remember all good things come from the Father of Lights, without Him we can do nothing(john 15:5b)

By the way, who was Jesus talking to when He made that statement in Matt 19:17? A Jewish man wanted to claim his self righteousness to make him perfect according to the law.

 

[kjw47]

And how are you not guilty of the same dogmatism in what you've posted? In fact, you sound very dogmatic, asserting unequivocally your opinion about teachers in the Church, and declaring flatly that only in obeying ALL of what Jesus taught can one prove one loves him. Yes, in your post above you are at least as guilty of teaching religious dogma as any you've criticized.

Actually the bible teaches that by obeying Jesus( John 14:15-24) proves ones love for him. I attended many different trinity based religions. My post is fact not dogma.

 

[kjw47]

I agree. John 14:15.



Well, the church itself is an unbiblical concept. There are no church buildings with a highly paid staff in Scripture. Believers met in homes and they collected money so as to be equally distributed goods among all the saints who had needs.



Yes, I am strongly against the idea of a Christian going to Bible school. For one, it is not free, and two they are brain washed there.



What are they are?



I believe in the Trinity and that Jesus is 100% God who is eternal and uncreated. Do you believe that, too?



I agree.

1) Matt 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added to you( sustenance, covering, spirituality)
2) Matt 5:5--Happy are the meek for they will inherit the EARTH( land)-- even the psalmist knew that truth-Psalm 37:9-11,29)
3) The Lords prayer-- Hallowed be thy( Father) name-YHVH(Jehovah)
4) Jesus teaches--he has a God, his Father--so does Paul-2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28)--Peter at 1Peter 1:3-- John at Rev 1:6
5) John 17_1-6,26-- Jesus clearly teaches here--The one who sent him= Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--verse 6= YHVH(Jehovah) 26= YHVH(Jehovah)
6) making this the bottom line reality of a true followers day= John 4:22-24

 

[ToBeLoved]

“Initially Saved” is the same as saying when I began initially lose weight. There was a beginning to a person’s salvation unless one believes in Universalism.

“Ultimately Saved” is the major reason of how or why we are saved, which is by God’s grace. Even Eternal Security proponents believe one must do something to get saved like calling upon Jesus for salvation and or believing in Him.

So you are paraphrasing your own experiences and putting it in your posts as Biblical doctrine and Biblical theology?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Rom 4:1-4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Simply put salvation by grace through faith alone, without faith it is impossible to please God, Heb 11:6

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

1) Matt 6:33-- Therefore, keep on seeking- FIRST- the kingdom and his( YHVH(Jehovah) righteousness and all these other things will be added to you( sustenance, covering, spirituality)
2) Matt 5:5--Happy are the meek for they will inherit the EARTH( land)-- even the psalmist knew that truth-Psalm 37:9-11,29)
3) The Lords prayer-- Hallowed be thy( Father) name-YHVH(Jehovah)
4) Jesus teaches--he has a God, his Father--so does Paul-2Cor 1:3, 1Cor 8:6, 1Cor 15:24-28)--Peter at 1Peter 1:3-- John at Rev 1:6
5) John 17_1-6,26-- Jesus clearly teaches here--The one who sent him= Father( John 5:30) is THE ONLY TRUE GOD--verse 6= YHVH(Jehovah) 26= YHVH(Jehovah)
6) making this the bottom line reality of a true followers day= John 4:22-24

#3 forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. What is this, asking for forgiveness?
#4 Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Deut 6 Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One
# 5Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
#6 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

 

[aiki]

Actually the bible teaches that by obeying Jesus( John 14:15-24) proves ones love for him. I attended many different trinity based religions. My post is fact not dogma.

Not from where I stand. You've made dogmatic, broad assertions about pastors and teachers and offered little to no concrete reason to think you're being accurate, yet this hasn't seemed to give you any pause in your criticisms. And all those nasty, trinitarian purveyors of dogma are likely just as able to found their dogmas in Scripture as you are with your own dogma.

 

[kjw47]

Not from where I stand. You've made dogmatic, broad assertions about pastors and teachers and offered little to no concrete reason to think you're being accurate, yet this hasn't seemed to give you any pause in your criticisms. And all those nasty, trinitarian purveyors of dogma are likely just as able to found their dogmas in Scripture as you are with your own dogma.

How many x has your teacher taught you --this is the bottom line reality of what a true followers heart instructs their minds to live by daily-John 4:22-24 = The Father-( YHVH(Jehovah)-- This is ultra important, but aren't all of Jesus' teachings?