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Fidelibus

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There's nothing hypothetical about either scenario except the use of the name "Bob." And as a Catholic, you know that.

Thanks for your opinion. However, a deflection, is still a deflection.

For my third attempt:


When your group (prayer/bible?) prays for one another, do you consider it as interceding for one another?

If so, would you agree that the members of your group are acting as co-mediator's between God and other members of your group?


Why is it then, if it is okay for you and your group, but not okay for Mary or the Saints to do this same thing?


Do you believe they, (Mary, and all the other Saints in heaven) are part of the Body of Christ?
 
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Phil 1:21

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Thanks for your opinion. However, a deflection, is still a deflection.

For my third attempt:


When your group (prayer/bible?) prays for one another, do you consider it as interceding for one another?

If so, would you agree that the members of your group are acting as co-mediator's between God and other members of your group?


Why is it then, if it is okay for you and your group, but not okay for Mary or the Saints to do this same thing?


Do you believe they, (Mary, and all the other Saints in heaven) are part of the Body of Christ?

I already addressed your false analogy, twice actually. But please feel free to continue spinning in circles if you must.
 
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Fidelibus

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I already addressed your false analogy, twice actually. But please feel free to continue spinning in circles if you must.


Ha..Ha.... that's a good one JayW! Not buying it, and pretty sure anyone that can read English is either! Although you declined to answer my questions, I'll go ahead and address your so-called "scenario" post.

Scenario 1: "Hey, Bob, could you please pray for me this week?"

I have a friend in my Parish named "Bob", and have asked him to pray for me many times. Not only him, I also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, and all the Saints in Heaven to pray for me daily, not just weekly.


Scenario 2: Build a statue to Bob and install stained glass windows with pictures of Bob in a house of worship.

Nope, no statues or stained glass windows of Bob in our church. We do however, honor our patron Saint Vincent de Paul with a statue. We also have stained glass windows in honor of our Blessed Mother, and windows of a dove and tounges of fire depicting the Holy Spirit, along with windows of Jesus, and God the Father. They are quite beautiful!


Light candles before that statue,

Of Bob? Sorry, not happening. Now, as far as candles go in Catholic Churches, there are different types of candles and meanings behind them. For space restraints I'll stick with votive candles. Light stands for Christ, so the burning of candles or lamps, has naturally come to symbolize Christ in a special way (Jn 8:12).

Something that is "votive" has to do with a vow. God is pleased with our vows, provided we keep them (Mt 5:33, Acts 18:18). A Catholic who lights a votive candle, makes an offering and places an intention before the Lord. The candle symbolizes their intention, it can also stand for their presence in prayer before God, and their union, as a Christian, with Christ the light of the world. The votive element is the exchange of the offering for God's answer to their prayer.

The practice of lighting candles before the Lord goes back to the Old Testament. God required the Israelites to maintain lamps burning before the Holy of Holies (Ex 40). As you can see JayW, the practice of votive candles has very biblical roots and is very symbolic of who were are as Christians united to Christ, and of our complete dependence upon God in our need. So,if you are mocking Catholics for the lighting of candles.... You are also mocking God! Tisk....tisk!


light incense to it

To a statue of Bob? Again, not happening. As for the burning of incense. Well, Incense has been used in Christian liturgy from its earliest centuries. In fact, it was a part of the Jewish tradition that came before it, a use that was commanded by God himself and recorded in Sacred Scripture. As in
Exodus 30:1-10, and Exodus 30:34-38 in the Old Testament, an in Revelation 5:6-8, and Revelation 8:3-4 in the New Testament. So you see JayW, when you see incense being used in our churches, it is meant to remind us Catholics of heaven, and that our worship of God in the Christian liturgy is divine in origin. It also reminds us to pray, and that our prayer rises to God like the smoke from the censer, purifying our worship of God, and allowing his Holy Spirit to work in us to make us holy. So again, if you are mocking Catholics for burning incense in our worship of God, you are mocking Him as well!


and work my way through 53 rosary beads of "Hail Bob."

Sarcasm in it's truest form, not worthy of a responce.


I invite you to cite even one incident in scripture where God tells us to pray to anyone but Him alone.

I know what you're getting at, that "gotcha" moment, and it aint going to happen. Lol! FYI, Catholic doctrine absolutely rejects the worship of anyone but God. What the Church does allow is praying to the saints in order to ask for their intercession with the one true God. Not only that....God expects us to pray for one another! We see this in both the Old and New Testaments.---- Gen. 20:7, Job 42:8, Rom.15:30-32, James 5:16-17, to name a few.

Thank You
 
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Phil 1:21

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FYI, Catholic doctrine absolutely rejects the worship of anyone but God.

Yes, I know. They call it "veneration." I can slap a Shelby GT logo on a '73 Pinto, but it's still a Pinto.

Not only that....God expects us to pray for one another! We see this in both the Old and New Testaments.---- Gen. 20:7, Job 42:8, Rom.15:30-32, James 5:16-17, to name a few.

Yes, for one another, not to one another.
 
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rturner76

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Yes, I know. They call it "veneration." I can slap a Shelby GT logo on a '73 Pinto, but it's still a Pinto.



Yes, for one another, not to one another.
I was reading this thread and I can see there may be some frustration, or if not that, perhaps some tension between the Protestants and Catholics concerning this subject. I likely will not be able to alter many people's perceptions that we pray to Saints and Mother Mary in error or to put it more harshly even a sacrilegious way. I think some of this stems from our individual understanding and use of language. For example, I took the opportunity to look up some synonyms of the word "pray" and this is what I found just in the online dictionary: invoke, call on, implore, appeal to, entreat, beg, petition. If we understand the word "pray" or "prayer" in the context of some of these definitions, we especially as Catholics and perhaps now others can see that prayer is not always worship, similarly worship is not always prayer. We can also sing hymns and make a joyful noise unto the Lord. I hope this prose will serve to bring our ideas closer even if we can't find agreement.
 
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Fidelibus

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Yes, I know. They call it "veneration." I can slap a Shelby GT logo on a '73 Pinto, but it's still a Pinto.

You should really look up the definition of a word before you make a.......how did you put it? Oh yeah, "false analogy." Let me help you out.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
veneration
noun ven·er·a·tion \ ˌve-nə-ˈrā-shən \
Popularity: Top 30% of words

Definition of veneration

1 :respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person
2 :the act of venerating
3 :the condition of one that is venerated

The word 'worship' absent.

And from the Catholic Dictionary:

VENERATION OF SAINTS

Definition

Honor paid to the saints who, by their intercession and example and in their possession of God, minister to human sanctification, helping the faithful grow in Christian virtue. Venerating the saints does not detract from the glory given to God, since whatever good they possess is a gift from his bounty. They reflect the divine perfections, and their supernatural qualities result from the graces Christ merited for them by the Cross. In the language of the Church's liturgy, the saints are venerated as sanctuaries of the Trinity, as adopted children of the Father, brethren of Christ, faithful members of his Mystical Body, and temples of the Holy Spirit.

Again, the word 'worship' absent. Now speaking of the Veneration of Mary, lets see what the father of your very own Reformation has to say about it.

"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart." --- Martin Luther, Sermon, September 1, 1522.

"One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God" ----. Martin Luther (Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)

Can you tell me when and by whom did this Protestant view on Mary changed? (won't hold my breath for an answer)

Yes, for one another, not to one another.

See post #12 on this thread.

Now JayW, you're fond of the 'Scenario' thing, right? Let me share a couple I found online:


{Catholic versus the Evangelical approach to a relationship with Jesus}

Scenario 1: If a guy falls in love with a girl he might say:

I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend all my time with you. I never want to talk to your mother. I never want to see your family or friends. I want you to banish them when they come around, I just want to spend my whole life with you and love you.

That's how we understand the Evangelical take on a relationship to Jesus.

Scenario 2: On the other hand he could say:

I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend my time with you. Your mom is welcome to visit our home. Your family is my family, your friends are my friends. The people you love, I will love. We are one flesh and I welcome everyone you welcome."

We think the second one sounds like a more authentic love. We think that is the Catholic approach to a relationship with Jesus.


Thank You
 
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Phil 1:21

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You should really look up the definition of a word before you make a.......how did you put it? Oh yeah, "false analogy." Let me help you out.

My use of quotation marks was intentional. Perhaps you overlooked that fact.
 
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Fidelibus

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My use of quotation marks was intentional. Perhaps you overlooked that fact.


Oh....you mean like how you overlooked the definition of the word veneration, and the question...."when and by whom did the Protestant view on Mary changed?"

Thank You
 
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Phil 1:21

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Oh....you mean like how you overlooked the definition of the word veneration, and the question...."when and by whom did the Protestant view on Mary changed?"

Thank You

Well, the other poster why replied understood what I was saying (politely disagreed with it, which is fine of course). I’m sorry if you do not. I’ll try to be cleared next time.
 
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Fidelibus

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Well, the other poster why replied understood what I was saying (politely disagreed with it, which is fine of course). I’m sorry if you do not. I’ll try to be cleared next time.


Not to be dis-respectful JayW, but maybe you could be a little more clear on this post.

Also, the question I asked:

"When and by whom did the Martin Luther's/Protestant view on Mary change?"

The answer requires a name/names and date/dates.

Thank you
 
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Phil 1:21

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Not to be dis-respectful JayW, but maybe you could be a little more clear on this post.

To draw from the analogy I used in that post, does calling a '73 Ford Pinto a Shelby GT make it a Shelby GT?

Also, the question I asked:



The answer requires a name/names and date/dates.

Thank you

Yes you did, and while I understand that in some denominations "truth" (quotes again) is derived from the teachings of man -- "So-n-so wrote in the year XXX that ABC is true therefore it is" -- those outside such denominations reject such a premise. The sole infallible documentation of faith is sacred scripture, not the nonscriptural writings of men. As such your question is a non sequitur.
 
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Fidelibus

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Yes you did, and while I understand that in some denominations "truth" (quotes again) is derived from the teachings of man -- "So-n-so wrote in the year XXX that ABC is true therefore it is" -- those outside such denominations reject such a premise.


Again, more deflection...... No names.... no dates. Why am I not surprised!


The sole infallible documentation of faith is sacred scripture, not the nonscriptural writings of men.

Please show book chapter and verse that says the bible is sufficient as a sole rule of faith? ( i.e. all we need is the bible, nothing more) And the posting of 2 Timothy 3:16–17 not going to do it, for the context of these verses only shows that Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, helpful. Many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal.
 
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Fidelibus

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Perhaps because you fail to see why your question is a non sequitur to someone outside your denomination?

Lol! It is obvious you are quite fond of the word...."non-sequitur." I can only reason why you find my question absurd (non-sequitur) outside of the Catholic Church is because history is not a friend of your Protestant Denomination. (care to share which one of the thousands it is?) As you well know, Protestant "denominations," founded by mere men, have only been around for the past five hundred or so years, compared to the two thousand plus year old Catholic Church Jesus founded on St. Peter and His successors.

To quote Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman, a famous Anglican convert to Catholicism in the 19th century: "To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant." Which was the case with me after many years of 'church shopping' various Protestant denominations.

Now as far as "my denomination." The Catholic Church has no denominations. There are however many rites within the Catholic Church (ways of worshiping), and many churches sui iuris (according to the law) — such as:

the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church
the Melkite Greek-Catholic Church
the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church
the Syro-Malankara Catholic Church
the Chaldean Catholic Church
the Coptic Catholic Church, and
the Armenian Catholic Church

but we are all united under one head and believe in one common faith, something foreign among the many different Protestant denominations/sects.
 
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Phil 1:21

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Lol! It is obvious you are quite fond of the word...."non-sequitur." I can only reason why you find my question absurd (non-sequitur) outside of the Catholic Church is because history is not a friend of your Protestant Denomination.
No, it's because, outside certain denominations, Christians do not look to the nonscriptural words of men for their faith. They look the word of God. So quoting the nonscriptural words of men to refute their faith is a non sequitur.

(care to share which one of the thousands it is?)
Care to provide a list of those thousands?
 
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Fidelibus

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No, it's because, outside certain denominations.
Oh, you mean like the thousands of different Protestant denominations I spoke of?

Christians do not look to the nonscriptural words of men for their faith.

Interesting...... You don't consider adherents of the man-made/ nonscriptural doctrine of Sola Scriptura (the bible alone) Christians? I sure do!


They look the word of God.

Correct..... As in the written and spoken Word of God!


Care to provide a list of those thousands?

Gladly...... but because of space restraints, you will have to do a bit of work on your own.

First off, I don't know what city you live in, but if you have the phone book/yellow pages, turn to the 'Christian Church' section of the city you live, exclude any Catholic or Orthodox churches, and count whats left, and tell me what the number you come up with. What you will also have to consider JayW, is all the churches that are not listed. Like those churches that hold their service in school gyms, community centers, Halls, private homes, garages, ect. Then, multiply that with all the cities, towns, villages of the world. After you've done that, do you really believe that the numbers would only be in the hundreds?

If you don't have, or don't know what the phone book/yellow pages are, (not being sarcastic, a lot of people don't, like my g-kids) it can just as easily done online. If you do not wish to put in the time, and you dont mind, tell me the name of the city you live, and I would gladly look it up for you. If you don't feel comfortable giving the name of the city you live, just give me some random city and I'll go from there.

p.s. couldn't help but notice you didn't give the name of the church your a member of. Care to? If not, why not?

Thank you in advance.
 
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Phil 1:21

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So no list of thousands? That’s too bad. I would have enjoyed finally seeing one. Kind of like sasquatch, people keep saying it exists but, meh, not so much.
p.s. couldn't help but notice you didn't give the name of the church your a member of. Care to? If not, why not?
For the same reason I’m not going to give you my name, address, phone number, place of employment, or anything else of that nature. I don’t know you, and quite honestly, those things really aren’t your business.
 
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Fidelibus

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So no list of thousands? That’s too bad. I would have enjoyed finally seeing one.

Sadly, until you give up your Ostrich imitation, you never will.


Kind of like sasquatch, people keep saying it exists but, meh, not so much.

Said the Ostrich.


For the same reason I’m not going to give you my name, address, phone number, place of employment, or anything else of that nature. I don’t know you, and quite honestly, those things really aren’t your business.


I knew it! Thanks JayW, this answer of your's, just won me a home made dinner! Woo-hoo!! :)


Thank you!
 
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Fidelibus

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So no list of thousands? That’s too bad. I would have enjoyed finally seeing one.


Sadly, until you give up your Ostrich imitation, you never will.


Kind of like sasquatch, people keep saying it exists but, meh, not so much.

Said the Ostrich.


For the same reason I’m not going to give you my name, address, phone number, place of employment, or anything else of that nature. I don’t know you, and quite honestly, those things really aren’t your business.


I knew it! Thanks JayW, this answer of your's, just won me a home made dinner! Woo-hoo!! :)


Thank you!
 
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