The Early Church Fathers did not teach modern Millennialism

samir

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Thank you for asking for the details of my argument; that is certainly a fair request.

Most recent date proposed for first humans: 4,004 B.C. by Bishop Ussher. Today's date: 2,017 A.D. The difference is greater than 6,000 years.

Note a side effect of accepting the 6,000 years view. You can't think of creation as happening in 10,000 B.C. or 15,000 B.C. as many creationists do.

It's impossible to calculate an exact date. The 6,021 year estimate could easily be off by 100 years so you can't say 6,000 years have passed since the birth of Adam.
 
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Tayla

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According to scripture and historians, we're somewhere between 5,900 to 6,000 years since Adam was created.
Thanks for providing the detailed information.

I was using Bishop Ussher's calculation of 4,004 B.C. My bad.

Anyway, I prefer the modern scientific view: the first modern humans 200,000 years ago in Ethiopia, and these migrated to all continents 60,000 to 30,000 years ago.
 
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GUANO

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Thanks for providing the detailed information.

I was using Bishop Ussher's calculation of 4,004 B.C. My bad.

Anyway, I prefer the modern scientific view: the first modern humans 200,000 years ago in Ethiopia, and these migrated to all continents 60,000 to 30,000 years ago.

How does that work if you interpret the Bible literally?
 
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Tayla

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It's impossible to calculate an exact date. The 6,021 year estimate could easily be off by 100 years so you can't say 6,000 years have passed since the birth of Adam.
Thank you for your careful clarification.

Anyway, I don't use these dates. Adam was a farmer and had domesticated animals; this occurred about 10,000 B.C. -- so much for 6,000 years of human history. Anyway, we will know within 230 years; no one believes the 6,000 years ends after that.
 
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Tayla

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How does that work if you interpret the Bible literally?
Thank you for your continued interest and curiosity.

Easy. The Bible doesn't discuss the topic of the age of the earth or the date of Adam's birth.
 
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Tayla

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I do not know what to make of this post other than it is short. I have around ten or fifteen year to go and I am hoping it won't happen in my lifetime,
I hope you don't think I'm saying the world will end in 22 years. I'm merely mentioning what others say. I personally don't subscribe to the 6,000 years of human history theory.
 
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GUANO

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Thank you for your continued interest and curiosity.

Easy. The Bible doesn't discuss the topic of the age of the earth or the date of Adam's birth.

That's correct, it doesn't. But there is a very detailed chronology throughout the Bible in the form of family lineages that anyone could take the time to count up—that's how the "~6,000 year" age is calculated.
 
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Tayla

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That's correct, it doesn't. But there is a very detailed chronology throughout the Bible in the form of family lineages that anyone could take the time to count up—that's how the "~6,000 year" age is calculated.
Thank you for sharing your observations.

I'm sure you are aware that many well-known and well-respected theologians consider that the genealogies contain gaps, merely mentioning key memorable figures; perhaps only those having an interesting or in some way significant story.

Anyway, I don't feel I need to defend this in any way. For me, if a Bible interpretation collides with modern science, I reject it. Philosophy proves the scientific method will generate true knowledge of the physical world better than any other method. Certainly better than a bunch of theologians arguing about whether such and such genealogy has gaps.
 
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GUANO

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Thank you for sharing your observations.

I'm sure you are aware that many well-known and well-respected theologians consider that the genealogies contain gaps, merely mentioning key memorable figures; perhaps only those having an interesting or in some way significant story.

Anyway, I don't feel I need to defend this in any way. For me, if a Bible interpretation collides with modern science, I reject it. Philosophy proves the scientific method will generate true knowledge of the physical world better than any other method. Certainly better than a bunch of theologians arguing about whether such and such genealogy has gaps.
I'm not trying to argue, again, I don't think the earth is 6,000 years old myself. But you also state that Adam was the first man, and a farmer. Science tells us that the first of mankind were not farmers. Anyways, good day to you.
 
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BABerean2

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That's correct, it doesn't. But there is a very detailed chronology throughout the Bible in the form of family lineages that anyone could take the time to count up—that's how the "~6,000 year" age is calculated

Most Christians today ignore the fact that we have no idea how long it was between the creation and the time that Satan fell.

.
 
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MyGivenNameIsKeith

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Thank you for sharing your observations.

I'm sure you are aware that many well-known and well-respected theologians consider that the genealogies contain gaps, merely mentioning key memorable figures; perhaps only those having an interesting or in some way significant story.

Anyway, I don't feel I need to defend this in any way. For me, if a Bible interpretation collides with modern science, I reject it. Philosophy proves the scientific method will generate true knowledge of the physical world better than any other method. Certainly better than a bunch of theologians arguing about whether such and such genealogy has gaps.
Refer to II Timothy Chapters 3 and 4. I would preach it to you, but you wouldn't listen, as it is sound doctrine, and you are only hearing what you want to hear. You feel no need for accountability to anything you say or believe. Your words implying one to question your motives, as the early church "fathers" (lol) did use doctrine. They had scriptures. the same ones we have today, more or less. which is to say they had the Bible. You put your faith in science falsely so-called and I'll put mine in the creator and his word and see where we both end up 5 minutes after death. So on that note, as the word of God says, The Lord rebuke thee.
 
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GUANO

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Most Christians today ignore the fact that we have no idea how long it was between the creation and the time that Satan fell.

.
None of that (the date of the earth) is actually important to me. I take the Genesis account as figurative with the understanding that Satan is 'the flesh'. The first thing that God did with Adam was establish language (by naming things), it wasn't long after that when flesh "fell" and became something that was more of an adversary than a friend. The flesh kept primitive man alive and 'blameless' in the past by our simple animal instincts and behaviors, now, with the power of cognition and inner dialog through language, we're both able to comprehend and connect to a higher principle as well as choose not to obey 'the voice of God', and boom: shame, guilt, corruption, is born, the fall of man, the fall of Satan, the fall of the flesh.

In my opinion, the story of Adam is the story of the first person capable of 'hearing' the voice of God which is a Spirit inside of us, the first person capable of disobeying this "Voice", and as such, the first person to disobey It, and feel guilty about it, and hide from It. The same story could have taken place on different continents, or could have spread from a single person. Adam is sometimes called the first Son of God... "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Then perhaps these "Sons of God" quickly intermingled with the rest of primitive man and the first civilizations came to be.

The Tetragrammaton (YHWH) is called "I Am" and "The One Who Is and Causes to Be"—the Judge—the Decider. And we are made in this Image. The spirits all come and talk to us and we hear their cases and decide what we're going to do in any given situation based on our very limited and corrupt knowledge, like judges. And there is a Holy Spirit in there somewhere—the Spirit that speaks the case of righteousness to our heavenly courtroom, that, if we listen, and think, and do what it says after hearing the case of the other spirits within our psyche, we can be righteous to the extent of our limited knowledge and understanding—what we are completely unaware of is not a sin in which we're personally responsible; like the animals. In that realm, the realm of general awareness of truth, we are subject unto higher powers—parents first, then culture and society and those influences, etc...

My off-topic ramblings for the night... apologies.
 
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David Kent

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Thank you for your lengthy and thoughtful reply. It was so long with so many topics, I chose the one that most caught my interest. To facilitate dialog you may wish to consider shorter posts focused on smaller more easily digestible topics. Please feel free to comment as often as you wish.

This 6,000 year cosmology is provably false: it has already been more than 6,000 years since the first human.
It is only false if you take secular chronology as true. I don't.
I believe that the time allotted to the Judges is inaccurate. I believe the true timescale is given in 1 Kings 6:1

Unknown: How old was Joshua at the Exodus? I don't think we are told. We know he was at least 18. He was 110 when he died. Was he included in the Judges as some say? No, nor were the elders that outlived him.

I also think the time allocated to the Persians is much too long. The true time is from when Cyrus published the command to build the city and temple to the baptism of Jesus is 69 prophetic weeks or 483 years.

Jewish calendar has not yet got to 6000 years.
 
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David Kent

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Most Christians today ignore the fact that we have no idea how long it was between the creation and the time that Satan fell.

.

Yes we do.
None.
  • And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. There could be no time before the first day, only eternity.
Just as after the last day when the saints are raised up, there can be no more time, only eternity.
 
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BABerean2

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Yes we do.
None.
  • And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. There could be no time before the first day, only eternity.
Just as after the last day when the saints are raised up, there can be no more time, only eternity.

And how long did Adam live in the garden before he ate of the forbidden fruit?

.
 
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sparow

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I hope you don't think I'm saying the world will end in 22 years. I'm merely mentioning what others say. I personally don't subscribe to the 6,000 years of human history theory.


To the best of my knowledge, no where has Jesus or any prophet said the world will end after six thousand years, but there are many signs given that will indicate the end approaches; but even so when it happens most people will be taken by surprise; this is also prophesied.
 
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Copperhead

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I'm not trying to argue, again, I don't think the earth is 6,000 years old myself. But you also state that Adam was the first man, and a farmer. Science tells us that the first of mankind were not farmers. Anyways, good day to you.

I don't think the earth is just 6000 years old either, but the human part of it could well be.

There is an implied gap between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2.

Genesis 1:1-2 (NKJV Strong's,) 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

The Hebrew seems to state that the earth became without form and void as opposed to was without form and void. so there seems to be suggested some sort of event that caused it to become without form and void. Possibly the rebellion of Satan and the angels.

As to what science has to say about what the first people did is as much speculation as anyone else. No one was there to record for science what was going on. Those that are believers would contend that the scripture was inspired by YHVH. And the scripture seems to suggest right out of the gate that Cain and Abel were farmers and sheep herders respectively (or mutton punchers as I jokingly call it). So if one takes what "science" has to say about early man over what scripture says, it speaks more to the person's belief system than anything else.
 
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Tayla

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I'm not trying to argue, again, I don't think the earth is 6,000 years old myself. But you also state that Adam was the first man, and a farmer. Science tells us that the first of mankind were not farmers. Anyways, good day to you.
Thank you for your insightful comments. Sorry if I didn't clearly communicate my views:

Yes, you are correct. The Bible says Adam was a farmer and had domesticated animals. Modern science teaches that the first modern humans appeared 200,000 years ago in Ethiopia and migrated to all continents by 60,000 to 30,000 years ago. They were hunter-gathers for the first 190,000 years. What does that make Adam? Or Noah?
 
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Tayla

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You put your faith in science falsely so-called and I'll put mine in the creator and his word and see where we both end up 5 minutes after death. So on that note, as the word of God says, The Lord rebuke thee.
Thank you for your soul-baring comments.

Seriously? Over non-essentials of the faith?
 
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Tayla

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It is only false if you take secular chronology as true. I don't.
I believe that the time allotted to the Judges is inaccurate. I believe the true timescale is given in 1 Kings 6:1

Unknown: How old was Joshua at the Exodus? I don't think we are told. We know he was at least 18. He was 110 when he died. Was he included in the Judges as some say? No, nor were the elders that outlived him.

I also think the time allocated to the Persians is much too long. The true time is from when Cyrus published the command to build the city and temple to the baptism of Jesus is 69 prophetic weeks or 483 years.

Jewish calendar has not yet got to 6000 years.
Thank you for the providing the additional information. I'm sure people will find it helpful and useful.
 
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