Did the incarnation happen upon conception or birth?

[DamianWarS]

In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

 

[jax5434]

In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted that the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

Traditional Jewish thought was that the soul entered the body upon taking its first breath. Since that was the culture Jesus was born into that is what I would go with. But scripture is silent on this so people are free to believe what they choose.
God Bless
Jax

 

[Winken]

Jesus was Spiritually Conceived.

 

[jax5434]

Jesus was Spiritually Conceived.

I agree but I am not sure that really addresses the posters question
God Bless
Jax

 

[ViaCrucis]

In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted that the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

Historic Christian teaching is that the Incarnation means anhypostasia and enhypostasia. Anhypostasia refers to the fact that the Logos did not enter into an already-existing human person; as though there is a discrete "person" apart from the Divine Logos; instead the the Person is the Logos, who is at once both God and man: God because He is eternally God from the Father and man because He is the true offspring of Mary. Enhypostasia refers to the fact that there is not a general humanity through which the Logos is found but the specific person of Jesus. All of this means is that the Logos is Jesus/Jesus is the Logos.

The cluster of cells in Mary's body which divided and divided again is the Very Same through which all things were made, as it is written, "by Him and for Him were all things made".

The Logos did not enter into a child, the Logos is that Child.

And Scripture teaches us this, for what do we read?

"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, 'Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you!' But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. The angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you will name Him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His ancestor David. He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.' Mary said to the angel, 'How can this be, since I am a virgin?' The angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the Child to be born will be holy; He will be called the Son of God.'" - Luke 1:26-35

And also,

"In those days, Mary set out and went with haste to a Judean town in the hill country, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women! And blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.'" - Luke 1:39-45

Why would the pre-natal John the Baptist leap for joy unless that which was in Mary's womb is indeed what St. Elizabeth says here, that the Lord Himself--He who is very and truly God, was conceived and there in the womb of Mary, for which reason she is indeed truly called Theotokos, God-bearer.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Gregory Thompson]

In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted that the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Luke 1:34-35)
.
Since "that holy thing" was already designated "holy" at the time of conception, it could go either way,
.
on one hand, more logical chips seem to fall on the side of after being born.
.
However, since there is a convention that God seems to address the "seed" the same as the "fruit" throughout scripture, the concept that Jesus was God at conception holds more weight.
.
Furthermore, for it to be an "incarnation" implied is that it happens after being born.

 

[Winken]

Historic Christian teaching is that the Incarnation means anhypostasia and enhypostasia. Anhypostasia refers to the fact that the Logos did not enter into an already-existing human person; as though there is a discrete "person" apart from the Divine Logos; instead the the Person is the Logos, who is at once both God and man: God because He is eternally God from the Father and man because He is the true offspring of Mary. Enhypostasia refers to the fact that there is not a general humanity through which the Logos is found but the specific person of Jesus. All of this means is that the Logos is Jesus/Jesus is the Logos.

The cluster of cells in Mary's body which divided and divided again is the Very Same through which all things were made, as it is written, "by Him and for Him were all things made".

The Logos did not enter into a child, the Logos is that Child.

And Scripture teaches us this, for what do we read?

"In the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a town in Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin engaged to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David. The virgin's name was Mary. And he came to her and said, 'Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you!' But she was much perplexed by his words and pondered what sort of greeting this might be. The angel said to her, 'Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And now, you will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you will name Him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give to Him the throne of His ancestor David. He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there will be no end.' Mary said to the angel, 'How can this be, since I am a virgin?' The angel said to her, 'The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the Child to be born will be holy; He will be called the Son of God.'" - Luke 1:26-35

And also,

"In those days, Mary set out and went with haste to a Judean town in the hill country, where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and exclaimed with a loud cry, 'Blessed are you among women! And blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.'" - Luke 1:39-45

Why would the pre-natal John the Baptist leap for joy unless that which was in Mary's womb is indeed what St. Elizabeth says here, that the Lord Himself--He who is very and truly God, was conceived and there in the womb of Mary, for which reason she is indeed truly called Theotokos, God-bearer.

-CryptoLutheran

Ditto.

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

When the Lord was placed in the womb of Mary He already was the Lord who became the man Christ Jesus. He did not become, He already was the Lord who left heaven to become the only begotten of the Father; Phil 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[ViaCrucis]

He did not become the only-begotten of the Father; He has always been the only-begotten of the Father. He has always been Son and Word, true God of true God. What He became was man.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

Acts 13:32-33 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:2:7 ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. I clearly stated He was before He became Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

 

[ViaCrucis]

Acts 13:32-33 And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:2:7 ‘You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. I clearly stated He was before He became Heb 5:5 So also Christ did not glorify Himself to become High Priest, but it was He who said to Him: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.”

Which refers to His resurrection, "today I have begotten You" is used in reference to "He has raised up Jesus"; Christ, raised and glorified, ascended and seated at the right hand of the Father fulfills the promise, "and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his ancestor David. He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:32-33).

But when we speak of Jesus as the Son of God, begotten of the Father, we speak of his eternal generation from the Father, as we confess in the Nicene Creed,

"We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of the same Being with the Father; through Him all things were made."

Even as Scripture says that He is the Logos who was in the beginning with God and is God (John 1:1), the only-begotten who is at the bosom of the Father (John 1:18).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

In objection to the term "theotokos" it seems some have adopted that the incarnation happened at birth not at conception. I was rather surprised at this and it leads me to wonder how common place is this thinking. So when did the incarnation happen?

I bet the ancient answer is here...
On the Incarnation of the Word - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

"On the Incarnation of the Word is a classic work of Orthodox theology written by noted bishop of Alexandria, St. Athanasius. In this apologetic treatise, St. Athanasius defends the incarnation of Christ against the derision of 4th century non-believers. St Athanasius explains why God chose to approach his fallen people in human form. He states, "The death of all was consummated in the Lord's body; yet, because the Word was in it, death and corruption were in the same act utterly abolished." St. Athanasius resolves the paradox of the Incarnate by relying heavily on both Scripture and the teachings of the early Church. St. Athanasius also answers several objections to his account, many of which are still raised against Christians today by those outside the Church. On the Incarnation of the Word was highly recommended by modern writer and Christian apologist, C.S. Lewis, who suggested that contemporary Christian audiences could benefit from reading more ancient classics. Indeed, though St. Athanasius wrote this text in the 4th century, his style is easy to follow and his concepts are of irreplaceable worth."

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

"For this purpose, then, the incorporeal and incorruptible and immaterial Word of God entered our world. In one sense, indeed, He was not far from it before, for no part of creation had ever been without Him Who, while ever abiding in union with the Father, yet fills all things that are. But now He entered the world in a new way, stooping to our level in His love and Self-revealing to us. He saw the reasonable race, the race of men that, like Himself, expressed the Father's Mind, wasting out of existence, and death reigning over all in corruption. He saw that corruption held us all the closer, because it was the penalty for the Transgression; He saw, too, how unthinkable it would be for the law to be repealed before it was fulfilled. He saw how unseemly it was that the very things of which He Himself was the Artificer should be disappearing. He saw how the surpassing wickedness of men was mounting up against them; He saw also their universal liability to death. All this He saw and, pitying our race, moved with compassion for our limitation, unable to endure that death should have the mastery, rather than that His creatures should perish and the work of His Father for us men come to nought, He took to Himself a body, a human body even as our own. Nor did He will merely to become embodied or merely to appear; had that been so, He could have revealed His divine majesty in some other and better way. No, He took our body, and not only so, but He took it directly from a spotless, stainless virgin, without the agency of human father—a pure body, untainted by intercourse with man. He, the Mighty One, the Artificer of all, Himself prepared this body in the virgin as a temple for Himself, and took it for His very own, as the instrument through which He was known and in which He dwelt. Thus, taking a body like our own, because all our bodies were liable to the corruption of death, He surrendered His body to death instead of all, and offered it to the Father. This He did out of sheer love for us, so that in His death all might die, and the law of death thereby be abolished because, having fulfilled in His body that for which it was appointed, it was thereafter voided of its power for men. This He did that He might turn again to incorruption men who had turned back to corruption, and make them alive through death by the appropriation of His body and by the grace of His resurrection. Thus He would make death to disappear from them as utterly as straw from fire."

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

"The Word perceived that corruption could not be got rid of otherwise than through death; yet He Himself, as the Word, being immortal and the Father's Son, was such as could not die. For this reason, therefore, He assumed a body capable of death, in order that it, through belonging to the Word Who is above all, might become in dying a sufficient exchange for all, and, itself remaining incorruptible through His indwelling, might thereafter put an end to corruption for all others as well, by the grace of the resurrection. It was by surrendering to death the body which He had taken, as an offering and sacrifice free from every stain, that He forthwith abolished death for His human brethren by the offering of the equivalent. For naturally, since the Word of God was above all, when He offered His own temple and bodily instrument as a substitute for the life of all, He fulfilled in death all that was required. Naturally also, through this union of the immortal Son of God with our human nature, all men were clothed with incorruption in the promise of the resurrection. For the solidarity of mankind is such that, by virtue of the Word's indwelling in a single human body, the corruption which goes with death has lost its power over all. You know how it is when some great king enters a large city and dwells in one of its houses; because of his dwelling in that single house, the whole city is honored, and enemies and robbers cease to molest it. Even so is it with the King of all; He has come into our country and dwelt in one body amidst the many, and in consequence the designs of the enemy against mankind have been foiled and the corruption of death, which formerly held them in its power, has simply ceased to be. For the human race would have perished utterly had not the Lord and Savior of all, the Son of God, come among us to put an end to death."

Forgive me...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

The womb was prepared as a Temple. HE was arriving!

End of question for me.

Forgive me...

 

[DamianWarS]

Traditional Jewish thought was that the soul entered the body upon taking its first breath. Since that was the culture Jesus was born into that is what I would go with. But scripture is silent on this so people are free to believe what they choose.
God Bless
Jax

did you vote? I see 100% conception. Scripture tell us "he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born" (Luke 1:15) what is your take on that?

edit: Luke 1:15 is about John the baptist not Jesus however it still shows the Holy Spirit interacting with a child in the womb.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

did you vote? I see 100% conception. Scripture tell us "he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born" (Luke 1:15) what is your take on that?

before conception.... so... I can't vote.

Christianity teaches that Christ walked in the Garden.

Forgive me...

 

[DamianWarS]

before conception.... so... I can't vote.

Christianity teaches that Christ walked in the Garden.

Forgive me...

Is there more than one incarnation? Jesus did not walk as an embryo in the garden nor was he conceived a full grown man. When the power of the most high overshadowed Mary certainly incarnation occurred.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Is there more than one incarnation? Jesus did not walk as an embryo in the garden nor was he conceived a full grown man. When the power of the most high overshadowed Mary certainly incarnation occurred.

And yet, there he walked. Mystery of Mysteries. He is not constrained by time.

Forgive me...

 

[DamianWarS]

And yet, there he walked. Mystery of Mysteries. He is not constrained by time.

Forgive me...

since we are constrained by time and you seem to agree there is only one incarnation then can we agree it was in Mary's womb otherwise to which incarnation do you refer to?