President Disrespects the Flag at Military Base

Armoured

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I'm enjoying this thread too. I think it's amusing to watch all of this mental gymnastics and bending over backwards to defend Trump. Trump and his followers were the ones going on about standing for the American flag as a sign of respect, but then Trump goes and does something like this. I think it's humorous to watch his followers here nervously deflect and scramble like this to defend him.
If you could rig up a generator to run off their wriggling and tapdancing, we'd solve renewable energy.
 
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Armoured

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It's really pretty simple. If you're going to use moralising and condemnation of others for political gain, that's a valid and venerable tactic.

But... you'd better make darn sure you are absolutely beyond reproach on those issues, or you'll be exposed as a hypocrite with no credibility. Again and again we see political and social leaders make use of the tactic while unable to maintain the second half of the equation. At what point do you think these people will learn from the mistakes of others?

Or are they just so insulated from the real world that they honestly can't see their hypocrisy?
 
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Saucy

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It's really pretty simple. If you're going to use moralising and condemnation of others for political gain, that's a valid and venerable tactic.

But... you'd better make darn sure you are absolutely beyond reproach on those issues, or you'll be exposed as a hypocrite with no credibility. Again and again we see political and social leaders make use of the tactic while unable to maintain the second half of the equation. At what point do you think these people will learn from the mistakes of others?

Or are they just so insulated from the real world that they honestly can't see their hypocrisy?
That's been my point about the liberals and anti-Trumpers on this forum for awhile now.
 
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PeachyKeane

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Because I never again want you to respond to me. Ever. I want you to disappear and never see you again.

Well, sorry to disappoint. You could just post without the hyperbole and unsubstantiated claims...
 
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GoldenBoy89

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Yeah, then the second I mention Obama or Hillary, they scramble like fighter jets ready to defend. Don't act like you're better than us.
You mean you're conscious of your deflections and you continue to do it anyway?
 
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GoldenBoy89

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That's alright. You guys can keep being intellectually dishonest. That's cool.
We're going to keep holding the President to his words since it's become obvious we can't rely on his supporters to do that.
 
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keith99

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.... It could've been that it didn't click for him at that time what the song was for, because he flat out asked Hannity what the song was.
....

Fair is fair and I have to give points for this. Of course it would have made a far better impact if not buried in the midst of several other excuses.

If I were defending Trump I'd also point out that Retreat is far less known than reveille or taps and is short. One easily could not click to it in time to do anything.

I'd also point out that in the short video I saw there was no flag being lowered that I could see. It is a rather different thing if the flagpole is right in front of Trump or on the other side of the base. It is rather curious that none of his supporters here have managed to make this pretty decent argument.

Of course it does not present Trump as perfect.
 
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Saucy

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Fair is fair and I have to give points for this. Of course it would have made a far better impact if not buried in the midst of several other excuses.

If I were defending Trump I'd also point out that Retreat is far less known than reveille or taps and is short. One easily could not click to it in time to do anything.

I'd also point out that in the short video I saw there was no flag being lowered that I could see. It is a rather different thing if the flagpole is right in front of Trump or on the other side of the base. It is rather curious that none of his supporters here have managed to make this pretty decent argument.

Of course it does not present Trump as perfect.
Thank you for this post.

You guys are probably right about the way I defend Trump. I tell others all the time I have no idea why I just ardently jump to his defense, but it's probably seeing things like this happen. In my mind, there are reasons to defend the president, reasons to not jump at the media every time they post stuff like this. In the interview, it wasn't just one-on-one with Hannity. It was like a rally, but a sit-down interview instead of standing, so there were hundreds of people there watching. They most likely had a time constraint to fit it on Hannity's show, and as you said, he probably didn't recognize or know the song, or it didn't click.
 
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1000Flames

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Fair is fair and I have to give points for this. Of course it would have made a far better impact if not buried in the midst of several other excuses.

If I were defending Trump I'd also point out that Retreat is far less known than reveille or taps and is short. One easily could not click to it in time to do anything.

I'd also point out that in the short video I saw there was no flag being lowered that I could see. It is a rather different thing if the flagpole is right in front of Trump or on the other side of the base. It is rather curious that none of his supporters here have managed to make this pretty decent argument.

Of course it does not present Trump as perfect.

Didn't Trump go to military school? If he did, is there any excuse NOT to know it practically immediately? I don't really know anything about military school, so I suppose it's entirely possible they didn't do those protocols ore songs at the school vs doing them on a base.
 
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jgarden

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1ec477dabe78e7baf6197f95f129f742--political-science-political-satire.jpg

The "kneeling/anthem" controversy is nothing more than "The Donald's" attempt to divert the American public's attention away from his own Secretary of State referring to him as a "MORON," and the Republican Senate Chair of the Foreign Relations Committee characterizing the White House as "adult day care!"

This President may not know how to conduct himself during a flag-lowering ceremony, but he does know how to manipulate a situation for his own benefit!
 
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Christie insb

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That's alright. You guys can keep being intellectually dishonest. That's cool.
They need a :baffled: smilie to comment on posts.
 
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Goonie

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I am sorry for my constant defense of Trump.
Hey this would be a really short thread without it:). It just seems to be really bad timing and location for Trump to be having an interview with Hannity.
 
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Saucy

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1ec477dabe78e7baf6197f95f129f742--political-science-political-satire.jpg

The "kneeling/anthem" controversy is nothing more than "The Donald's" attempt to divert the American public's attention away from his own Secretary of State referring to him as a "MORON," and the Republican Senate Chair of the Foreign Relations Committee characterizing the White House as "adult day care!"

This President may not know how to conduct himself during a flag-lowering ceremony, but he does know how to manipulate a situation for his own benefit!
That same SOS said he never called Trump a moron.
 
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Belk

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Here's the difference. When you're at a football game, they ask you to stand, remove your hat, and put your hand over your heart. There are NFL rules that state this. Most teams have rules that state this. This wasn't the national anthem. No one asked Trump or anyone to stand. It wasn't customary. There are no rules for it UNLESS you're a member of the military. Trump isn't a grunt. And it very well could've been that he forgot. It could've been that it didn't click for him at that time what the song was for, because he flat out asked Hannity what the song was.

So, in my opinion, to use this moment to attack Trump, when it wasn't customary for Trump to rise, when it wasn't customary for civilians to rise (I doubt Hannity did either), as if it's the same as the national anthem where they blatantly disrespect the anthem and the flag, is ridiculous. It's not even remotely the same. Intentionally kneeling is different than not standing for a song that's not customary to stand unless you're a member of the military. If it was the national anthem, I'd be right here saying he was disrespectful, but it wasn't the anthem. There are no rules or customs that said Trump had to stand, unlike at NFL games.


That is incorrect.

Military personnel and veterans who are present but not in uniform may salute when outdoors [during reveille and retreat] or stand at parade rest. Civilians should stand at attention and place their right hand - with a hat if they're wearing one - over their heart. All vehicles on military installations should come to a complete stop and wait until the last note of the music stops. Military members in their vehicles should sit at attention.

Customs and Courtesies: What to do during reveille, retreat, taps > Malmstrom Air Force Base > Display
 
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Ada Lovelace

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He went to New York Military Academy. I think he knew what that song was and what it meant. He's not a uniformed officer, so he wasn't required to stand and salute. Come on with this petty crap already.

Which is precisely why he should have known what to do, and done it. My dad also graduated from NYMA (albeit a generation after Trump) where every morning began with the playing of "Reveille", and at precisely the same time each evening "Retreat" was played. They were trained on the etiquette for honoring both traditions, to the extent that it became like a Pavlovian response. It was unequivocally unacceptable to be in breach. Trump is the Commander-in-Chief, and was on a military base. Even if he was an ordinary citizen, his actions would have been construed as disrespectful by those at NYMA. All visitors to the campus were expected to render the proper courtesies to these ceremonies.

My parents were serving in the military when I was born, and I vividly remember being on bases as a young child while the songs were performed, and watching everyone reverently adhere to the courtesies. We weren't expected to follow the protocols precisely as preschoolers, but we were still taught them. Civilians are to stop, silence themselves, turn towards the flag, and come to a position of attention and remain there for the duration.

I do think the interview was poorly planned, but I also think the criticism is valid and fair. As for "petty crap"..... when I have more time I'll detail my thoughts on Trump's obsession with NFL players and the National Anthem in one of the plethora of threads about it.
 
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Christie insb

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That same SOS said he never called Trump a moron.
I know. That was big news on CNN. "So and so didn't call Trump a moron, he says." Reading the comment to disavow it just implants it all the more. We all get frustrated with our bosses, but our comments don't usually end up on the national news.
 
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