Scripture doesn't consider it to be in error. Review post 107.Then it was in error, wasn't it? They had to fudge it to get it to match God's year, didn't they?
Upvote
0
Scripture doesn't consider it to be in error. Review post 107.Then it was in error, wasn't it? They had to fudge it to get it to match God's year, didn't they?
Anti-Christ - Anti-King of Israel. Becoming the King of Israel instead of Jesus the rightful King of Israel.I concur with your identification of Jewish messianic expectations. However, there is nothing in Scripture that associates or makes any connection between such expectations and antichrist.
Revelation 12:1-6 ? Not hardly. Revelation 12:1-5. In Revelation 12:5, Jesus is caught up to heaven.It comes AFTER Doug. Rev. 12:1-6 is pretty much the Story of Israel birthing Jesus, Satan via Herod trying to kill the baby, who is then sacrificed and ascends to the throne, then the Woman, Israel Flees to be protected by God for 1260 Days. Then the Actual Prophecy is Given. So General STORY, then the Actual Prophecy is told from Rev. 12:7-17.
The Third woe did come quickly, for as soon as the 7th sounded, them in heaven reacting, John is immediately shown in Revelation 12 the vision which contains the third woe.Again you are dodging THE FACTS...when he verse says THE THIRD WOE COMETH QUCKLY, its speaking about the Seventh Trumpet that Sounds. You thinking Revelation is in SEQUENCE handicaps you to bad conclusions.
Not called a woe.Rev. 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
7 And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Not called a woe.Rev. 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
Rev. 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Its the exact SAME SEQUENCE....The Seventh Seal IS the Seven Trumpets....the Seventh Trumpet IS THE Seven Vials. How do you miss this?
That means the SEVENTH TRUMPET is the THIRD WOE and the SEVEN VIALS is the THIRD WOE.
Its right before your face. God is SYMMETRICAL !!
Note that it did, because the image of the beast is not the beast itself, and thus is not the papacy.Note that it didn't, because, for example, the papacy never fulfilled the "image of the beast" (Revelation 13:15), which could be an android image of the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) which the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20) could cause to be made after the Antichrist receives a terrible head wound (Revelation 13:3,14b). For this injury could leave the Antichrist's facial and bodily appearance permanently marred, and could render him unable to speak clearly, like someone after a bad stroke, so the Antichrist won't want to appear or speak in public again.
Did you ever see that movie "Dave"? It had a President who was in a coma, so his handlers found a regular guy who looked exactly like the President, and had him be a public stand-in for the President. He was able to speak just like the President did. It could be like that with the Antichrist's image. It could be the Antichrist's "Dave", his double, which appears and speaks (Revelation 13:15) before the world instead of his wounded self. But instead of letting people think the Antichrist's android image is the Antichrist himself, the False Prophet could tell people from the beginning the image isn't the Antichrist himself, but still fully represents him.
In Revelation 13:15 the original Greek word translated as "life" or "breath" (pneuma: G4151) can mean "spirit" in the sense of consciousness (1 Corinthians 2:11a, Luke 1:47), so that the android could appear to have a spirit, to have consciousness. The way this could be achieved would be through the android having wireless connections to huge banks of neural network supercomputers running highly advanced artificial intelligence software. The False Prophet could claim the Antichrist's consciousness dwells within the android by means of the neural networks having been imprinted with the Antichrist's own brain patterns. But this could be a lie, in that the android won't actually have the Antichrist's consciousness, or any true consciousness, but will only appear to have consciousness, by its being able to pass even the most stringent Turing Test. This is a test whereby one speaks with a computer and can't tell whether or not it has consciousness, because its answers are the same as if it had consciousness.
But the android's "consciousness" could appear far more advanced than any human's. For it could have access to huge databases containing every fact known to man, so that the android will appear omniscient. In this way, it could convince the world it's not just a machine, but a material incarnation, a machine avatar, of the true God, a literal "deus ex machina", a literal "God from a machine". And this machine "God" could boast not only of his mental powers, but also of his physical powers: his android body could be extremely strong. And he could boast of the "immortality" of his body, which could be made of titanium, covered with some practically everlasting flesh-like silicone. People could be completely awestruck by his (what they could call) "omniscient wisdom, his strength, his indestructibility". They could consider him more than worthy of worship by (in their words) "mere humanity, which is so mentally and physically limited, made out of mere flesh and blood, which is so weak and so mortal". The unsaved world will actually worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), just as it will actually worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4,8, Revelation 12:9).
The Antichrist's image could be placed standing in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, so that the image will become the abomination of desolation (of Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31). And to make it easy for everyone in the world to see the Antichrist's image and worship it (Revelation 13:15), it could appear on every smartphone, tablet, laptop, PC, TV, GPS navigation system and electronic billboard at set times each day. And to make it possible for everyone to interact with it personally, it could appear as a lifelike computer-generated image on each individual's smartphone, speaking in and understanding each individual's language, conversing with each individual with personalized messages and responses devised by supercomputers running artificial intelligence and language software.
And it could discuss with them even the most intimate details of their lives. For it could have access to huge databases compiled by the Antichrist's worldwide intelligence, law enforcement, economic and health agencies, databases containing all the facts about everyone: who their family and friends are, where they live and work, who their neighbors and coworkers are, how much they make, what cars and properties they own and use, where they go, where they shop, what they buy, where they eat out, what shows and videos they watch, what they read, what they say, what they post on the internet, what their health problems are, etc., so that the Antichrist's image could seem to know everything about everyone.
And the worship of the image could be connected with a daily surveillance and subjugation of everyone. For the image's supercomputers could make his image automatically appear on everyone's smartphone at set times each day to be worshipped. And smartphones contain GPS chips which can be secretly pinged remotely to determine the exact location of the smartphones. So when the image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could ping the GPS chip of everyone's smartphone and know exactly where everyone is.
Also, smartphones contain cameras and microphones which can be remotely opened secretly to see and hear what's going on around the smartphones at any time. So when the Antichrist's image appears on everyone's smartphone, the image's supercomputers could open the cameras and microphones of everyone's smartphone to determine what everyone is doing and saying, and the image could then demand the individuals worship him as God, saying some set prayer of praise and adoration. And if any individual refuses, the image's supercomputers could detect his noncompliance, and notify the nearest police officers of his exact location, and order the officers to arrest him for blasphemy and treason. He could then be given a chance to be "reformed" (in a brainwashing prison, or through physical torture, if necessary), but if he proves recalcitrant he will be executed (Revelation 13:15) by being beheaded (Revelation 20:4).
The beheading process itself could be made into a televised and webcasted spectacle, to serve not only as a dire warning to anyone thinking of refusing to worship the Antichrist's image, but also to serve as an amazingly horrific entertainment for the masses, like how the ancient Romans made it an entertainment for the masses to gather them into the Colosseum in Rome and let them watch Christians being thrown to lions and devoured alive.
Huge beheading structures could be built, by which 20 "traitors" could be beheaded at one time by one fall of one blade. The "traitors" could be bound in a row along an upright "U"-shaped device with a track for a large guillotine blade, which could start out in a resting position at the top of one side. The blade could be so massive and so sharp that when it's released it will easily slice down through 10 necks on one side of the "U" and continue by its own momentum up the other side of the "U", shearing off another 10 heads. This could happen so quickly it will appear as if all 20 heads are struck off almost in unison, followed immediately by 20 geysers of blood rushing out in unison for all the Antichrist's "faithful" to gawk at and cheer over in the comfort of their own homes before their televisions and computers.
Also, immediately after the show, at the site where it took place, teams of surgeons could rush in to "harvest" all the fresh organs and other body parts from the beheaded bodies to be used for transplants (beheading being the best way for a body to die if you want to harvest its parts). What's left of the bodies could then be stuffed in shipping containers, which, once full, could be painted black and stacked like stones into a gigantic "Black Pyramid of Death", which could eventually reach some 30 stories high and contain tens of millions of bodies. A huge plaque could be erected in front of the Pyramid which will read: "This is a monument to the shame of YHWH, who created everything to die". (Of course, the truth is He didn't, for He created Adam and Eve immortal; it wasn't until they sinned that they became mortal: Genesis 2:17. And YHWH will restore immortality to Christians through Jesus Christ: Romans 6:23. Also, any such plaque would be hypocritical, for it will be the Antichrist who will have murdered the people entombed in the Pyramid, not YHWH. And so it will actually be a monument to how those who hate YHWH and his wisdom, love death: Proverbs 8:36b.)
Regarding the worship of the Antichrist's image, to help foster a group dynamic, every neighborhood and village in the world could be helped to create a group worship center where everyone in that neighborhood or village will have to gather together at a set time each evening to bow down and prostrate himself or herself before a life-size, lifelike image of the Antichrist, which could be a computer-generated, animated, holographic or widescreen 3D HDTV image of him clothed in beautiful golden robes and standing majestically before them (or sitting on a magnificent golden throne), and speaking computer-generated customized messages to them as a group.
This worship could be accompanied by the most beautiful symphonic music (cf. Daniel 3:5), or whatever is the most beautiful music to the local people, to help them (in the words of the Antichrist's propaganda machine) "Be uplifted into the true spirit of praise and worship of our Great Lord and Master. Praised be His Majestic Name forever and ever!", etc. And what with the wonderful music, and all their fellow worshippers around them, and customized messages of encouragement spoken in a deep, soothing voice by a life-size, holographic or 3D HDTV image of the Antichrist to certain members of each "worship group", some people in each group could really get into the evening worship sessions, and even (in their words) "Truly feel the Living Presence of our loving God among us, loving us so tenderly, so personally! Oh, how I love Him! He is So Great!"
For example, as a worshipper named Mary, a housewife with 2 little children, is bowing down before the image of the Antichrist, he could speak forth to her: "Mary! Mary! My beloved handmaid! You are so precious to me, my love. You so faithfully take care of dear little Johnnie and Michelle, whom I have entrusted to you, that you might raise them up to become My servants and faithful worshippers, just as you are. How I love thee, my Mary. How I cherish thee, my precious dove!". And poor Mary could begin to cry with happiness over her dear Lord's kind words to her, not realizing they're merely the concoction of an artificial-intelligence program running in a neural network supercomputer down in the basement of some government building.
Also, the world's worship of the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15), no matter how blissful it may become for some people, and the world's worship of the Antichrist and Lucifer (Satan) the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), will last for less than 4 years (Revelation 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12) before Jesus Christ returns from heaven and completely defeats the Antichrist and Lucifer, and the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20 to 20:3), and Jesus then sets up His own, 1,000-year physical kingdom on the earth with the physically resurrected Church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).
The Reformers were well aware of the descriptions of antichrists in John's epistles. They did not believe that the papacy was the sole and exclusive antichrist, but rather that it was the predominant antichrist of that era. There have been, are, and will continue to be, many other antichrists.Anti-Christ - Anti-King of Israel. Becoming the King of Israel instead of Jesus the rightful King of Israel.
I have been giving the scriptures that associate the Antichrist will becoming the King of Israel based on numerous text of what Christ mean and the role of Christ, the messiah, in the bible itself.
The pope cannot become the King of Israel because he is not a Jew. Anti the prefix means against and instead of. Attached to Christ, it means instead of and against Christ. which Christ refers to be God's sent to be King of Israel.
Christ(os) is the greek term for messiah. It is in the text of Scripture, this verse.
John 4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
Messiah, the hebrew word for it, means anointed. All of the kings and priests of Israel were anointeds. "The" messiah is the one special person to be their King of Israel.
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
Do you think it is a coincidence that the Jews rejected Jesus as their King, and are looking for another?
Look at what Pilate wrote on the sign about Jesus's head on the cross - Jesus of Nazerth, King of the Jews.
The scibes siad in mocking Jesus as he was being crucified -
32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.
ANTI-CHRIST, KING of ISRAEL, means instead of and against Jesus the true King of Israel. The Pope cannot be anointed the King of Israel because he is not descended from King David. And the Pope's religon is not Judaism for the Jews to embrace him as the King of Israel.
John 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
The Pope cannot become the King of Israel - instead of and against Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, because the Pope is not a Jew, not descended from King David, and is the wrong religion to be anointed the King of Israel.
The Pope cannot confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 70th shmittah, because he is not Jewish and he is not in the appointed role by Moses as that being his responsibility to do so. Daniel 9:27 has nothing to do with the Pope.
Moses in Deuteronomy 31:9-13 required all future leaders of Israel
all future generations, in perpetuity, to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant for the 7 year Shmittah cycle, from the place of God's choosing - which the Jews currently take to be the temple mount.
The pope is not the Antichrist, the president of the United States whoever happens to be in the office at the time is not the Antichrist, the muslim Mahdi is not the Antichrist, Matreya is not the Antichrist, Adoph Hitler was not the Antichrist, Napolean was not the Antichrist, Putin is not the Anti-Christ, Aleister Crowley is not the Antichrist - because none of them are qualified to become the King of Israel.
Should it be within the Lord's plans, and I am still around - when the person who will become the Antichrist, I will point him out to you - when he comes to power, before he becomes the Antichrist.
The popes are false prophets, just like the Mormon living prophets are false prophets - but they are not qualified to become the Antichrist.
If so, the reformers did not understand that John was likening them who were leaving Christianity in his day to the coming Antichrist, by his characteristics, not his qualifications to become the Antichrist.The Reformers were well aware of the descriptions of antichrists in John's epistles. They did not believe that the papacy was the sole and exclusive antichrist, but rather that it was the predominant antichrist of that era. There have been, are, and will continue to be, many other antichrists.
It does not make the pope an antichrist, but a false prophet. The popes, none of them, deny the trinity. The popes, none of them, deny that Jesus is the Christ. "Anti" means both instead of and against.Any Jew is already an antichrist as a result of the denial of the Son. The papacy, while not Jewish, still qualifies as an antichrist i.e. another Christ e.g. "The Pope...is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." (Pius X)
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Musta felt good burning at the stake for being wrong.The reformers were wrong about the papacy being the Antichrist
jgr said in post #124:
The first beast is a literal beast. Nowhere does Rev. 13 claim that it is the literal Antichrist.
Figuratively, yes. But I thought you believed Scripture literally. Nowhere does Rev. 13 literally state that the beast is a man."Beasts" can refer figuratively to men (Titus 1:12).
This does not anthropomorphize the beast, but simply describes its gender.Revelation uses a Greek masculine-pronoun "him" to refer to its beast (Revelation 13:8)
The beast can have the number of a man without being a man himself.when it's referring to the individual "man" (Revelation 13:18) aspect of its beast
Commonly called, but never literally declared to be.commonly called the Antichrist
2 Tim. 3:17the individual "man of sin" (2 Thessalonians 2:3)
The temple in 2 Thess. 2:4 is a "naos" temple. In every one of the eight instances in which Paul uses it in his epistles, it is the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church.who will sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36)
None of these things has happened yet.
"He" is a literal male beast. "He" thus cannot literally be an angel or anything else.A 2nd aspect of Revelation's beast is it's a powerful fallen angel (referred to with a Greek masculine-pronoun "he" in Revelation 17:11)
What keeps him from falling out of the bottom?who's now literally in the bottomless pit
If they're symbols, they're not literal.represented by the animal symbols of Revelation 13:1-2
He's a literal beast. He can't be a literal prince.The fallen-angel aspect of the beast could be the angelic prince
Only the beast was in the bottomless pit. But he probably fell out the bottom.The release of the powerful fallen angelic prince of Babylon from the bottomless pit
The angels were bound at the Euphrates. They were not cast into it.The binding of a stone to a scroll (written down by the prophet Jeremiah) about the fall of the ancient empire of Babylon, and the casting of the scroll into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom (Jeremiah 51:63-64) could have been a symbolic act which included a representation of the binding of the 4 powerful fallen angels and their being cast into the Euphrates to sink down to the bottom.
They are described as literal horses only. It is their riders who are "strange".200 million strange horse-like beings
Countless numbers of people were persecuted and killed for objecting to, separating from, and not submitting to the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church and its corruption. But it was not because the papacy was the Antichrist.Musta felt good burning at the stake for being wrong.
I'm quite certain that God did not raise up a movement to reclaim His true Church from spiritual darkness by being wrong.
7 of those times, Paul uses the term temple in a metaphoric sense. In 2thessalonians2:4 it is a literal temple, a physcial structure, because someone goes into the temple and sits. By committing that act, he does so to claim to be God.The temple in 2 Thess. 2:4 is a "naos" temple. In every one of the eight instances in which Paul uses it in his epistles, it is the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church.
The Reformation rested on two primary foundational doctrines: 1. The just shall live by faith. 2. The papacy is (an) antichrist. Both doctrines were widely disseminated, and were responsible for ultimately bringing the papacy to its knees. They unleashed the papacy's orgies of slaughter, and compelled it to contrive the counter-reformation, with its speculations of a futurized fantasized antichrist.Countless numbers of people were persecuted and killed for objecting to, separating from, and not submitting to the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church and its corruption. But it was not because the papacy was the Antichrist.
Matthew 23:1-27 of those times, Paul uses the term temple in a metaphoric sense. In 2thessalonians2:4 it is a literal temple, a physcial structure, because someone goes into the temple and sits. By committing that act, he does so to claim to be God.
Its hopeless.Revelation 12:1-6 ? Not hardly. Revelation 12:1-5. In Revelation 12:5, Jesus is caught up to heaven.
The 70th shmittach cycle is still to go. The 1260 days of Revelation 12:6 is the first half of that 7 year shimittah cycle. Then the war in heaven and Satan cast down for the second half of the 70th shmittah cycle. Together they constitute the 7 years.
Aren't you paying attention to the crowns on the 7 heads in Revelation 12:3 ?
The heads, the seven kings prophecy in Revelation 17, are complete because King #7 will have come to power right before the 7 years in Revelation 12 begin.
The Third woe did come quickly, for as soon as the 7th sounded, them in heaven reacting, John is immediately shown in Revelation 12 the vision which contains the third woe.
The FACT is that in the text of Revelation, none of the vials are called a woe, not collectively a woe. But the FACT is that in the text of Revelation, Satan being cast down is called a woe to the inhabiters of the earth.
Not called a woe.
Not called a woe.
So? I go by what the text says. It says in the text of the Revelation 10:6-7 what the seventh trumpet sounding announces - and it does not say the vials.
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
The mystery of God is not the seven vials. The prophets did not speak about the 7 vials. The prophets spoke about the Kingdom of God becoming the ruling Kingdom here on earth. And about the coming resurrection of the dead. And the reward of the saints to rule with Jesus and inherit the Kingdom of God.
When the 7th trumpet sounds, the vials follow, but that is not what the text says is the purpose of the 7th trumpet. What you have done is over-ridden, or ignored, or are not familar with what it says in Revelation 10:6-7 - which is not about the vials, but the mystery of God being finished - "as he hath declared to his servants the prophets".
jgr said in post #130:
I thought you believed Scripture literally.
jgr said in post #130:
Bible2+ said:
commonly called the Antichrist
Commonly called, but never literally declared to be.
jgr said in post #130:
So it is also with the "man of sin", in that instance the class of men, i.e. the popes, who drove the sin of the apostasizing church.
jgr said in post #130:
The temple in 2 Thess. 2:4 is a "naos" temple.
jgr said in post #130:
The temple in 2 Thess. 2:4 is a "naos" temple. In every one of the eight instances in which Paul uses it in his epistles, it is the spiritual temple of the believer, collectively the Church.
jgr said in post #131:
Bible2+ said:
who's now literally in the bottomless pit
What keeps him from falling out of the bottom?
jgr said in post #131:
Bible2+ said:
200 million strange horse-like beings
They are described as literal horses only.
I am not disagreeing that the reformers said that the Papacy was the Antichrist, and it was the widespread thinking at the time . But they were wrong about their conclusion.The Reformation rested on two primary foundational doctrines: 1. The just shall live by faith. 2. The papacy is (an) antichrist. Both doctrines were widely disseminated, and were responsible for ultimately bringing the papacy to its knees. They unleashed the papacy's orgies of slaughter, and compelled it to contrive the counter-reformation, with its speculations of a futurized fantasized antichrist.
If you use the KJV, here is a portion of the dedicatory epistle accompanying its release:
"...by writing in defence of the Truth, (which hath given such a blow unto that man of sin, as will not be healed,)..."
From the historic Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter XXV:
"VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God."
Notice the reference to 2 Thess. 2 and the locale of Antichrist "in the Church", not in a literal temple.
The foregoing description appears essentially verbatim in the historic Baptist Confession of Faith.
Contrary to your supposition, recognition of the papacy as antichrist and the man of sin was pervasive in the historic true Church, and pivotal in the historic papacy's downfall.
No: our purpose has been simply to show that the early Christian writers uniformly held that the Antichrist would be a real person, a Jew, one who should both simulate and oppose the true Christ. Such continued to be the generally received doctrine until what is known as the Dark Ages were far advanced.
Can a system which claims to acknowledge the Father and the Son, but which simultaneously claims to be God on the earth and Christ in the flesh, not be guilty of the denial of both?The pope acknowledges both the Father and the Son
But they were wrong about their conclusion.
jgr said in post #139:
The success that God and His chosen army achieved did not involve any wrong conclusions.