Does God want us to "sin less" in this life or to "stop sinning?"

Aseyesee

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Yes. This is why works are a necessary part of the salvation process because we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. Our works? No. The Lord's works done through us (When we surrender to Him).

One's salvation is continually redefined to them by relationship.
 
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Adstar

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But how is one trusting God if they are disobeying Him?

Oh, and where are those Scripture verses I was asking for?

You are a works salvation believer so i doubt any scriptures i provide will move you..

If salvation is secured by us by ceasing to sin then Jesus died for nothing...

If salvation is by ceasing to sin then you are doomed to the eternal lake of fire.. Because one this is for sure.. You shall not be able to live a life without sin.. And no doubt you have already failed many times in the past by sinning..
 
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So, committing sin that is “not unto death” is no problem then? If this sin has no power to break fellowship with Christ, why then call it sin? This does not make sense to me at all. Sin is sin and it separates us from Christ.

I don't make the rules. God does. There are sins that lead unto death (unconfessed grevious sins such as murder, hate, adultery, theft, etc.) and there are sins that do not lead unot death (confessed grevious sins with the intention that one will forsake them). For believers can pray for a believer who struggles with sin so as to give them life (victory over their sin) (See 1 John 5:16-17). Revelation 21:8 are sins unto death because they are sins that lead to the "Second Death" (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

Psalms 19:12 mentions that there are hidden or secret faults. No mention is made of how faults or minor transgressions or imperfections are said to lead to spiritual death. When I say minor transgressions, I am talking about things like going over the speed limit a little or not cleaning one's home yesterday when they knew they felt they should have. These would also be sins that do not lead unto death. Why does God call them sins? Because whatsoever is not of faith is sin (Romans 14:23); And whosoever knows to do good and he does it not, to him it is sin (James 4:17). But I doubt that shaving like you knew you should have that one day will send you to Hell. That would be extreme and non-sensical for God to punish someone like that (Especially when nothing like that is even mentioned within His Word).

Life even teaches us that there are degrees of sin. We as humans do not treat all transgressions as the same, and neither does God. Jesus says there is greater sin (John 19:11). Jesus said that the Pharisees ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, justice, faith, and mercy (Matthew 23:23) (Luke 11:42). Jesus said that they should ignored the tithing they did and do these other things.

There are also unforgivable sins like speaking bad words against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31), committing suicide and staying dead (1 Corinthians 3:17), apostasy (i.e. denying Jesus after having the Spirit and the gifts thereof) (Hebrews 6:4-6), and worshiping the beast (because they never had their names in the book of life to begin with) (Revelation 13:8) (Revelation 17:8).

You said:
The sin unto death would appear to be sin unto physical death, much like Ananias and his wife.

No. Think like a criminal detective investigating a crime scene and do not look to see what you want to see. The evidence of the text tells us otherwise. In Acts, a great fear came upon the church and all who heard about Ananais and Sapphira's death for lying to the Holy Spirit (God). This emotion does not make any sense if the body of Christ knew they were saved. They might feel sorrow or sadness because they will miss their friends, but they would not experience the emotion of fear if they knew they were saved. For what is there to be afraid of? Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain (Philippians 1:21). Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the One (Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in "hell" (i.e. Gehenna, the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28). So they were condemned and not saved. Other believers knew they were not saved because of the seriousness of their sin.

You said:
Do you ever sin, and if so why?

I do not commit sins that lead unto death on a daily basis. No. Have I slipped up on occasion? Yes. But I am not going against Scripture by saying it is impossible to stop sinning (When the Bible clearly says that). In fact, when a person has a defeatest attitude about sin, then they are going to induldge in sin more often. As for the why? This is not Facebook; In fact, I think it is not smart to give out personal information about yourself on the internet (Hence why I do not use Facebook except for rare business related reasons). Also, God knows our hearts better than we know ourselves. But I believe one can walk perfectly in Christ Jesus. For this is what the Scriptures teach. My life has no bearing on what the Scriptures say. In other words, how I live or how anyone else lives does not change the Word of God.

I mean, stop and think a moment. If you lived during the time of Noah and you were amongst the crowd listening to Noah, you would think that he was nuts, too. Why? Because the Scriptures say that he was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5). You would say to Noah, "Who are you to preach righteousness?" "Nobody lives righteously around here!" "In fact, the whole world is wicked."

See, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen (Hebrews 11:1).
Even if the whole world around us is wicked (Including any believers you know), we would not believe what we see but we would follow what God's Word says by faith. Again, read 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 4:1-2, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14 in prayer over and over and over. Accept what these pieces of Scripture say plainly. Do not seek to change them because you do not like what they say. For God's Word should change us and we should not change God's Word.

You said:
Please bear in mind that sin is both of commission AND omission as James 4:17 indicates.

Yes, I know. I just quoted this verse to you before I had seen it in your post. Anyways, does James say that not doing good when you know you should have in every case leads to spiritual death? James is talking about making promises, vows, oaths, or covenants that you cannot keep. James is saying for these believers not to boast about what they are going to do as a matter of fact (like a vow), because it is God who can change what they will do or not. They are to instead say, "If God wills it." The only two vows we should make in this life is to serve God and in a marriage covenant relationship (if we seek to be married).

You said:
Also, if you do sin, are you condemned if you have saving faith in Christ?

Depends on the sin. If it is a grevious sin, then I am under condemnation until I repent of my sin to the Lord Jesus Christ. For if we confess our sns, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). I get it. You want security in Christ. But the type of security you describe is not in the Scriptures. There is a way to have security in Christ, but we have to do what He says in order to have that. See 1 John 2:3-4.
 
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You are a works salvation believer so i doubt any scriptures i provide will move you..

If salvation is secured by us by ceasing to sin then Jesus died for nothing...

If salvation is by ceasing to sin then you are doomed to the eternal lake of fire.. Because one this is for sure.. You shall not be able to live a life without sin.. And no doubt you have already failed many times in the past by sinning..

Don't do it for me. Do it to help your fellow believer. Or is your argument so weak that you cannot even help your fellow brother?
 
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DennisTate

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Does God want us to "sin less" or to "stop sinning?"

Please use Scripture to justify your answer;
Thank you and may God's love shine upon you.

Messiah Yeshua - Jesus set us an example that we are actually supposed to follow.......

Matthew 5:19

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

But.... even the Apostle Paul feel short of what he was capable of doing.... .all humans do. Paul could not seem to get along well even with Barnabas, the son of Consolation. Later on Paul admitted that Barnabas had been wise to put confidence in John Mark.......... Paul had anger issues that he was working on all through his ministry.

We can be greatly encouraged by Paul's humility in being willing to admit to error in the past.


O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
 
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A_Thinker

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Jesus' sacrifice made it possible for us to become the CHILDREN of God.

John 1

12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 John 3

1 Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God!

As CHILDREN of God, we experience all that that entails.

We have been adopted into the family of God, ... and so, receive His guidance, provision, sustainment, comfort, peace, chastisement, ... and FORGIVENESS for our sins. As God's spiritual CHILDREN, we will SIN (i.e. miss the mark, as CHILDREN do). But we should be growing in our Godliness (i.e. the character of God), and so, should SIN LESS as we progress on the path on which God leads us.

AS a loving Father, God commands us NOT TO SIN, as we command our children also, but He is also ready and anxious to forgive the repentant heart for sins committed.

1 John 1

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
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A_Thinker

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But I am not going against Scripture by saying it is impossible to stop sinning (When the Bible clearly says that).

John said that we should acknowledge our sin ... so as to receive God's forgiveness and renewal ...

1 John 1

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
 
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A_Thinker

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No. Think like a criminal detective investigating a crime scene and do not look to see what you want to see. The evidence of the text tells us otherwise. In Acts, a great fear came upon the church and all who heard about Ananais and Sapphira's death for lying to the Holy Spirit (God). This emotion does not make any sense if the body of Christ knew they were saved. They might feel sorrow or sadness because they will miss their friends, but they would not experience the emotion of fear if they knew they were saved. For what is there to be afraid of? Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain (Philippians 1:21).

For discussion's sake, this is well before Paul wrote anything. (in fact, he was, likely, still persecuting the church at this point).

In any case, this is the very early church, ... where the believers were just figuring out how to function within the faith. When believers saw Ananias and Sapphira fall dead before them, ... of course great fear fell upon them. If such a thing happened in our churches today, ... it would have the same effect. Very few persons are ready to die, even the physical death.

Now whether Ananias and Sapphira were saved despite their sin is in the hands of God (for scripture does not give a definitive answer to the question). Though I would tend to believe according to what Jesus taught in John 6 ...

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Does God want us to "sin less" or to "stop sinning?"

Please use Scripture to justify your answer;
Thank you and may God's love shine upon you.

Colossians Chapter 2 seems to indicate that the premise of the question is wrong. Focussing on reducing sin takes away from becoming more like him, and we only have so much energy.
 
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Soyeong

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Does God want us to "sin less" or to "stop sinning?"

Please use Scripture to justify your answer;
Thank you and may God's love shine upon you.

Is it the reality that anyone stops sinning the moment they accept Christ or that we can point to alive anyone who has stopped sinning? I don't think so. According to 1 John 1:18 anyone who says that they are without sin is lying and the truth is not within them. According to 1 John 3:4-10, sin is the transgression of the Law, anyone who continues to practice Lawlessness has neither seen nor known Christ, and whoever does not practice righteousness is not a child of God, so we do not stop sinning in this life, but we do stop practicing sin and start practicing righteousness and repentance when we do sin. According to Philippians 1:6, he who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, but if we stopped sinning and only did what was righteous the moment we accepted Christ, then there would be nothing left to complete on that day. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, so this is a life-long training, not something that happens on day one.
 
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You are a works salvation believer so i doubt any scriptures i provide will move you..

If salvation is secured by us by ceasing to sin then Jesus died for nothing...

If salvation is by ceasing to sin then you are doomed to the eternal lake of fire.. Because one this is for sure.. You shall not be able to live a life without sin.. And no doubt you have already failed many times in the past by sinning..

You are going to do works regardless. One is either saved by

Option 1. God's grace + good works or
Option 2. God's grace + evil works.

I will take option 1 because that is not only the Biblical position but it is also the moral one.
 
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John said that we should acknowledge our sin ... so as to receive God's forgiveness and renewal ...

1 John 1

8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
According to 1 John 1:18 anyone who says that they are without sin is lying and the truth is not within them.

Does not 1 John 1:8 say that if we have no sin we deceive ourselves?

Answer: Well, what is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at it's immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 moves verse 8 (which is present tense) into a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned at some point in their life (Regardless of whether they are an OSAS believer or a Conditional Salvationist). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,

"If we say we do not bear the guilt of sin,
we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
(1 John 1:8 NET).​

In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their sins are paid for: Past, present, and future by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus paid for it all by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.


Side Note:

Soyeong, It was probably a typo on your part. But for your info, the verse is 1 John 1:8 and it is not 1 John 1:18. May God bless you.
 
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Messiah Yeshua - Jesus set us an example that we are actually supposed to follow.......

Matthew 5:19

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

It makes no sense for Jesus to be our example to follow if we really cannot follow in His footsteps. That is a contradiction, my friend.

You said:
But.... even the Apostle Paul feel short of what he was capable of doing.... .all humans do. Paul could not seem to get along well even with Barnabas, the son of Consolation. Later on Paul admitted that Barnabas had been wise to put confidence in John Mark.......... Paul had anger issues that he was working on all through his ministry.

We can be greatly encouraged by Paul's humility in being willing to admit to error in the past.


O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

In Defending Romans 7:

Peter says this about Paul's writings,
"As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16).

In Romans 7:1-6, Paul is telling Messianic Christians (i.e. those brethren who know Old Testament Law - Romans 7:1) that the Old Law is dead and that they should serve in newness of Spirit (i.e. the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed) and not in oldness of the letter (i.e. the Torah, etc.). This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed. This lines up with the temple veil being torn from top to bottom when Christ died (Which started the New Covenant officially). The Old Testament Laws on animal sacrifices was no longer in effect anymore and Jesus Christ was now our passover Lamb or perfect sacrifice. Hence, why Romans 7:2 says, "if the husband [i.e. Jesus] be dead, she [i.e. the body of believers] is loosed from the law [i.e. the Old Law] of her husband."

In Romans 7:7-13, Paul is recounting Israelite history and speaking as a Jew throughout time with the coming in of the Law of Moses and what that was like.

In Romans 7:14-24, Paul is recounting his experience as a Pharisee before he became a Christian. Paul (Saul) is describing his experience of what it is like to struggle in keeping the Old Covenant Law that did not include Jesus Christ.

It is true that the use of first-person present verbs in the passage (“I am” “I practice” “I want” “I hate” “I do”) sounds like Paul is talking about his present experience. But Paul sometimes uses “I” in a rhetorical sense to describe generic experience rather than his own present experience (1 Corinthians 10:30; 1 Corinthians 13:2-3, 1 Corinthians 13:11). In at least one other place, Paul uses a first-person present verb to describe his opponents’ experience (Galatians 2:18).

Romans 7:25 is a verse that transitions back to the present day reality as Paul being a Christian. He is thankful that he now has victory in Jesus Christ His Lord who can deliver him from his body of death (Which was a problem before). Otherwise why is Paul thanking Jesus?

Paul asks the question in verse 24.

Who shall deliver me from this body of death?

I like how the Good News Translation answers this question. It says,

"Thanks be to God, who does this through our Lord Jesus Christ! This, then, is my condition: on my own I can serve God's law only with my mind, while my human nature serves the law of sin." (Romans 7:25 GNT).

The NTE says,

"...So then, left to my own self I am enslaved to God’s law with my mind, but to sin’s law with my human flesh." (Romans 7:25 NTE).

But Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."


However, if you are still in doubt, there are 8 reasons in Scripture that show us that Paul is indeed talking as a Pharisee (recounting his past experience) and he is not talking in the present tense as a Christian in Romans 7:14-24.

#1. In Romans 7:6, Paul says we should serve in newness of the spirit and not the oldness of the letter (Which is the Old Law and not the New Testament Scriptures that were still being formed). We are told to SERVE. How do we serve? Do we just do our own thing? No. We follow God's commands in the New Testament. This talk of the Old Law is the context of verses 14-24.

#2. We are dead to the Law by the body of Jesus Christ (Romans 7:4). Would this be the Old Law or ALL law? 1 John 3:23 is a commandment that says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. This is a New Covenant Law. So obviously we are not dead to this Law or Command. The Scriptures also say, "but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). Are we dead to this Law? Surely not. Jesus said "repent or perish." (Luke 13:3). Peter told Simon to repent (by way of prayer to God) of his wickedness of trying to pay for the gifts of the Holy Spirit so that he may be forgiven (Acts of the Apostles 8:22). Sin is merely transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4). All this lets us know that men of God can break God's laws and they can be separated from GOD because of it. So surely some kind of Law of God is still in effect and has dire consequences for any person's soul who commits them. For Jesus said that if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father (Matthew 6:15). If Jesus was talking to unbelievers, this would not make any sense. They would first need to accept Christ. So the only logical conclusion is that Jesus is talking to believers in Matthew 6:15. You do not forgive (i.e. you sin or break this law of God) and you will not be forgiven or saved. 1 John 3:15 says if you hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them. Again, you hate your brother (which can be a one time act) and you do not have eternal life. It's that simple. Also, Paul condemns circumcision several times. Galatians 5:2 is the biggest verse that condemns circumcision salvationism. Circumcision is an Old Covenant Law and it is not a New Covenant Law. Paul uses the word "law" when he speaks against circumcision. So we have to conclude that Paul is saying we are dead to the Old Covenant Law and not all Law. So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#3. Paul says, "For without the law sin was dead." (Romans 7:8). He also says, "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died." (Romans 7:9). This type of saying is nonsensical from a present tense reading as an adult Christian. The only way it sort of works is if Paul is referring to himself as a baby who had no knowledge of God's laws yet. But there are two problem with even that interpretation. One, this view does not seem as consistent with the phrase, "For without the law sin was dead" because even though Paul as a baby did not have any knowledge of the Law yet, the rest of the adult world would have the Law and sin would still be alive to them. Second, Paul says, "And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me." (Romans 7:10-11). Okay, so if Paul grew up and became aware of the Law one day, how could the commandment be ordained to life at this point in his life? The commandment was ordained for life back in the time of the Law of Moses. Also, Paul found that "the commandment" was death unto him and that it slew him. There are no death penalties attached to the commands given to us under the New Testament. Death penalties are only associated with the Laws given to us in the Old Covenant. This is how the Law slew him. For breaking the Old Law could be a loss of his own physical life. So this is talking about the Old Law (and not all Law). So again, this talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#4. Paul says, "But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). Okay. Let's break this down. Paul says, "But sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR SIN, works death in me." (Romans 7:13). Now, how can sin make it appear like it may not be sin? Well, if Jesus was raised and Saul (Paul) was still a Pharisee striving to obey the Old Law when the New Covenant Law was still in effect, the sin that Saul (Paul) was struggling with as a pharisee during that time would not really technically be sin in every case. For if Paul disobeyed certain Old Covenant laws while the New Covenant and it's laws were in effect, then Saul (Paul) is not really breaking any real commandments from God in every case. Hence, why Paul said, "...sin, that it MIGHT APPEAR (as) SIN." (Romans 7:13). The beginning of verse 13 is a foreshadow of what is to come in verses 14-24. Paul is stepping out for a brief moment as speaking as an Israelite living throughout history to speak of his condition as a Pharisee when he says, "...sin, that it might appear sin." In the second half of verse 13, Paul says, that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful." (Romans 7:13). This is saying that when God provided the written Law of Moses to his people, there would be a double accountability to keeping God's laws because they are written for all to see now. So an Old Testament saint would feel exceedingly sinful or guilty for breaking God's law back in the Old Testament times because he had in his possession a written down visual law clearly telling him what is right and wrong. So again, Paul is referring to the Old Law here and not all law. This talk of the Old Law plays into verses 14-24.

#5. Paul says in Romans 7:14 that he is carnal and is sold under sin; And yet in Romans 8:2, Pauls says he is free from sin. So unless Paul is contradicting himself, he is talking from two different perspectives.

#6. In Romans 7:25, Paul asks the question: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Asking this kind of question as a Christian does not seem consistent with Paul's following statement if he is already delivered thru Jesus Christ as a Christian. If a believer is delivered by Jesus, and is thankful of that fact, there would be no cry to ask any question that says, "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?"

#7. Here is the final nail in the coffin for this argument. Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."

(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).


#8. In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).


Source used for a for only a few words within this post:
Paul is not Talking about Himself: Why I take the "pre-Christian" Reading of Romans 7:14-25
(Note: The majority of the content of this post on Romans 7 through Romans 8 was written by me).
 
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One's salvation is continually redefined to them by relationship.

Well, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship (or a relationship) with God and still be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.
 
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Is it the reality that anyone stops sinning the moment they accept Christ or that we can point to alive anyone who has stopped sinning? I don't think so. According to 1 John 1:18 anyone who says that they are without sin is lying and the truth is not within them. According to 1 John 3:4-10, sin is the transgression of the Law, anyone who continues to practice Lawlessness has neither seen nor known Christ, and whoever does not practice righteousness is not a child of God, so we do not stop sinning in this life, but we do stop practicing sin and start practicing righteousness and repentance when we do sin. According to Philippians 1:6, he who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it on the day of Christ Jesus, but if we stopped sinning and only did what was righteous the moment we accepted Christ, then there would be nothing left to complete on that day. According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, so this is a life-long training, not something that happens on day one.

Also, there is no difference between between doing a little bit of evil vs. a lot of evil. One is a murderer even if they murdered once. Adam and Eve fell by just one sin. Ananais and Sapphira died and were condemned because of their one sin because a great fear fell upon the whole church. The Bible clearly teaches that you can overcome sin by God's power as long as you believe and follow His instructions within His Word. See 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Also, there is no difference between between doing a little bit of evil vs. a lot of evil. One is a murderer even if they murdered once. Adam and Eve fell by just one sin. Ananais and Sapphira died and were condemned because of their one sin because a great fear fell upon the whole church. The Bible clearly teaches that you can overcome sin by God's power as long as you believe and follow His instructions within His Word. See 2 Corinthians 7:1, 1 Peter 4:1, Galatians 5:24, Romans 6:14.

I generally agree, though the A&S real estate fiasco was a mirror of when the Mosaic Covenant was being established. When God is establishing something, there's more directly observed examples. In the case of Ananias and Saphira, it was a breach of trust ... since what would follow would be all about trust or faith, they were made an example like Korah was.
 
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For discussion's sake, this is well before Paul wrote anything. (in fact, he was, likely, still persecuting the church at this point).

In any case, this is the very early church, ... where the believers were just figuring out how to function within the faith. When believers saw Ananias and Sapphira fall dead before them, ... of course great fear fell upon them. If such a thing happened in our churches today, ... it would have the same effect. Very few persons are ready to die, even the physical death.

No. If they knew they were saved, they would not be in fear. Remember, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Jesus said to fear not them who can destroy the body but to fear the One (Jesus) who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. So a person who is a Christian is not supposed to be afraid of death. Of course you won't believe this and you will try to rationalize that it is still possible for them to fear when it makes no logical sense. You do this because of what you believe and not because of what the text says.

You said:
Jesus taught in John 6 ...

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Notice the word "should" in there. This does not suggest a guarantee.
For example: That would be like me saying, "I should be over your house tomorrow, but I have a lot of work to do." Would you take this as a promise or guarantee that I was coming over? No. Of course not. So why would you read a guarantee into the words in John 6? Because of your preconceived beliefs.
 
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I generally agree, though the A&S real estate fiasco was a mirror of when the Mosaic Covenant was being established. When God is establishing something, there's more directly observed examples. In the case of Ananias and Saphira, it was a breach of trust ... since what would follow would be all about trust or faith, they were made an example like Korah was.

No. Your not thinking like a detective. If I needed a detective to do detective work for me, I would not hire you. There is no rational explanation to a Christian being in fear if they know their brethren were saved. Sad? Yes. Fear? No. For Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain. Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (i.e. the Lake of Fire). So the reason why we are to fear God (Christ) is because He has the power to throw us into the Lake of Fire.
 
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Colossians Chapter 2 seems to indicate that the premise of the question is wrong. Focussing on reducing sin takes away from becoming more like him, and we only have so much energy.

Need specific verses please. Give me just a couple.
 
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