What is the most ethical way to end child sexual abuse?

[Tolworth John]

It is not a contradiction if the aim is prevention

Even if it is prevention someone is going to have their rights stepped on.
Either everyone has to undergo compulsory lectures/reeducation, or parrental rights go out the window the moment there is a hint of child abuse.

 

[TNF_13]

Even if it is prevention someone is going to have their rights stepped on.
Either everyone has to undergo compulsory lectures/reeducation, or parrental rights go out the window the moment there is a hint of child abuse.

The second is again reaction, not prevention, and the first will not make much, if any, difference.

Take for example, adolescent relationship abuse/teen dating violence, which affects 69% of youth age 12-18. We know that mental health interventions can significantly reduce those numbers (in addition to being very low cost), yet schools are reluctant to take time out of their curriculum to spend time on it, and parents are unwilling to acknowledge the issue. You have no ethical issues, other than ignoring the parent's wishes that their child not go through the applicable curriculum if necessary.

This is a puzzle, a discussion, a brainstorming mission. I already have my ideas- I want to see some better ideas.

 

[Tolworth John]

That you want to do something about childabuse is good.
Whether you will is open to question.
Please have a read of this disturbing article from the bbc:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41499243

What is so disturbing is the acceptance of sex between children is seen as normal. Changing that attitude means changing societies attitude to sex ans society wants sex with no restrictions.

 

[TNF_13]

That you want to do something about childabuse is good.
Whether you will is open to question.
Please have a read of this disturbing article from the bbc:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41499243

What is so disturbing is the acceptance of sex between children is seen as normal. Changing that attitude means changing societies attitude to sex ans society wants sex with no restrictions.

Please remain on topic. Do you have ideas for preventing sexual abuse?

 

[mmksparbud]

Castration and jail time. Simple and effective, people learn from their mistakes and good deterrent.

Hate to tell you this--castration was tried years and years ago in Germany. What was discovered was, people still committed the crimes, but they used objects instead--sticks, weapons, even knives, brooms, whatever. They stopped it for it did not address the mind.
If Project Dunkelfeld doesn't work, nothing will and having gone through the experience myself, death sentence is the only other option for them.

 

[TNF_13]

Hate to tell you this--castration was tried years and years ago in Germany. What was discovered was, people still committed the crimes, but they used objects instead--sticks, weapons, even knives, brooms, whatever. They stopped it for it did not address the mind.
If Project Dunkelfeld doesn't work, nothing will and having gone through the experience myself, death sentence is the only other option for them.

People still committed the crimes because it is not largely adjudicated criminals that commit sexual crimes, it is people with no criminal record. Castration works well on certain people who willingly choose it to control their sex drive. It does not work well as a deterrent, nor do harsh penalties in general, because often, people's thoughts prior to and during the commission of a sex crime are not on the possible consequences.

Project Dunkelfeld will only ever address a fraction of abuse cases, namely, those willing to get therapy if they know it exists. It also seeks to mainly address those with pedophilia, which as mentioned, make up one-third of contact abusers and 61% of those with sexual exploitation material offenses. If we were trying to tackle sexually exploitative videos and pictures, it is a great solution (and again, works well because Germany lacks mandatory reporting laws).

So Project Dunkelfeld is an incomplete solution to sexual abuse as a whole. What might fill in its gaps to address people who do not have pedophilia?

 

[mmksparbud]

People still committed the crimes because it is not largely adjudicated criminals that commit sexual crimes, it is people with no criminal record. Castration works well on certain people who willingly choose it to control their sex drive. It does not work well as a deterrent, nor do harsh penalties in general, because often, people's thoughts prior to and during the commission of a sex crime are not on the possible consequences.

Project Dunkelfeld will only ever address a fraction of abuse cases, namely, those willing to get therapy if they know it exists. It also seeks to mainly address those with pedophilia, which as mentioned, make up one-third of contact abusers and 61% of those with sexual exploitation material offenses. If we were trying to tackle sexually exploitative videos and pictures, it is a great solution (and again, works well because Germany lacks mandatory reporting laws).

So Project Dunkelfeld is an incomplete solution to sexual abuse as a whole. What might fill in its gaps to address people who do not have pedophilia?

My father was not a pedophile---he God since he was a young man and God's authority meant nothing to him, and neither did man's authority. For him, I'm afraid he would have had to be put down before he did it, and since no one but God knows that, it was a battle strictly between God and the devil and him. What could have prevented it? Have not a clue. I was talking about pedophiles, repeat offenders. As far as I know, I was the only one my father did this to. He believed he was not doing anything wrong. Most pedophiles know they are doing wrong and it is an obsession with them that, for some, no amount of counseling, drugs, or anything else will work. It's either jail for life, or death. There is no answer to sin, except for God, but the person has to be willing. Until Jesus returns, there is no real, permanent answer until we can look into the heart and soul of a person unless we develop some sort of brain screening that would ferret these creatures out! Unfortunately, even God is going to have to put some people down!!

 

[TNF_13]

My father was not a pedophile---he God since he was a young man and God's authority meant nothing to him, and neither did man's authority. For him, I'm afraid he would have had to be put down before he did it, and since no one but God knows that, it was a battle strictly between God and the devil and him. What could have prevented it? Have not a clue.

I am sorry for your pain.

A pedophile is someone with a sexual attraction to children - pedophilia. Interpol (PDF, see page 86) has recommended against using the term "pedophile" to refer to sexual abusers, because it conflates pedophilia, a mental health condition, with behavior.

Those with pedophilia do not often abuse children, and those who abuse children do not usually have pedophilia (only one-third do). So, in addition to being a recommendation from Interpol, conflating "pedophile" with "sexual abuser" spreads myths about the reality of sexual abuse, and of pedophilia. This can push those with pedophilia away from help, which can enable abuse rather than prevent it.

I was talking about pedophiles, repeat offenders. As far as I know, I was the only one my father did this to. He believed he was not doing anything wrong. Most pedophiles know they are doing wrong and it is an obsession with them that, for some, no amount of counseling, drugs, or anything else will work. It's either jail for life, or death.

Most *abusers* do not go on to commit another sexual offense, they typically commit probation/parole violations, if anything at all. The statistics, DOC reports, and studies all indicate this, while they may vary slightly by location. So it is not jail for life or death. Here in Minnesota, for example, the sexual recidivism rate is 7% with a 3-year follow-up period, and the MN-DOC who did the report only looked at those released from prison where many sex offenders are given probation.

In short, recidivism is not the biggest contributor to sexual violence, first-time offenders are, and 97% of sex offenders have adverse childhood experiences in their backgrounds. One obvious answer, if most sex offenders have trauma in their childhoods, is to provide mentoring and appropriate mental health care for those who experience trauma during childhood. However, mental health interventions are not terribly popular with parents or schools. So how could these populations be shown or convinced that they are a good thing?

There is no answer to sin, except for God, but the person has to be willing. Until Jesus returns, there is no real, permanent answer until we can look into the heart and soul of a person unless we develop some sort of brain screening that would ferret these creatures out! Unfortunately, even God is going to have to put some people down!!

That is one perspective, but I doubt you will win much of the world on the idea of preaching Jesus to at-risk populations until they turn to God. Most abusers are religious, so clearly religion is not going to be an end-all solution, nor is it ethical to ignore the need of those with mental health issues to preach at them.

As far as brain screening goes, we have mental health surveys/screenings already that can identify if someone might benefit from therapy. We also have ways of using fMRI to study people's arousal patterns, even without their awareness. Are you suggesting we use these tools against people's consent?

 

[mmksparbud]

I am sorry for your pain.

A pedophile is someone with a sexual attraction to children - pedophilia. Interpol (PDF, see page 86) has recommended against using the term "pedophile" to refer to sexual abusers, because it conflates pedophilia, a mental health condition, with behavior.

Those with pedophilia do not often abuse children, and those who abuse children do not usually have pedophilia (only one-third do). So, in addition to being a recommendation from Interpol, conflating "pedophile" with "sexual abuser" spreads myths about the reality of sexual abuse, and of pedophilia. This can push those with pedophilia away from help, which can enable abuse rather than prevent it.


Most *abusers* do not go on to commit another sexual offense, they typically commit probation/parole violations, if anything at all. The statistics, DOC reports, and studies all indicate this, while they may vary slightly by location. So it is not jail for life or death. Here in Minnesota, for example, the sexual recidivism rate is 7% with a 3-year follow-up period, and the MN-DOC who did the report only looked at those released from prison where many sex offenders are given probation.

In short, recidivism is not the biggest contributor to sexual violence, first-time offenders are, and 97% of sex offenders have adverse childhood experiences in their backgrounds. One obvious answer, if most sex offenders have trauma in their childhoods, is to provide mentoring and appropriate mental health care for those who experience trauma during childhood. However, mental health interventions are not terribly popular with parents or schools. So how could these populations be shown or convinced that they are a good thing?


That is one perspective, but I doubt you will win much of the world on the idea of preaching Jesus to at-risk populations until they turn to God. Most abusers are religious, so clearly religion is not going to be an end-all solution, nor is it ethical to ignore the need of those with mental health issues to preach at them.

As far as brain screening goes, we have mental health surveys/screenings already that can identify if someone might benefit from therapy. We also have ways of using fMRI to study people's arousal patterns, even without their awareness. Are you suggesting we use these tools against people's consent?

Against consent? Why would anyone refuse a screening unless they have something to hide?? The big thing is to educate children to report these things. In my day, it was not even mentioned. I had no idea you could even talk about this. You are taught you do not discuss this with anyone. Children need to know they have a right to say no and to complain about their treatment. They must be taught to speak truth no matter what. They are programed to keep quite and feel shame and must be made to understand they are not to blame and they must speak up. It does not prevent it from happening, but it can bring it to a halt from being repeated. At the same time, they must be made to understand that to say something has happened, when it hasn't, is wrong. We must not accuse wrongfully, but we must listen to children and take their side. These people who know something is happening and look the other way are just as guilty.

 

[TNF_13]

Against consent? Why would anyone refuse a screening unless they have something to hide?? The big thing is to educate children to report these things. In my day, it was not even mentioned. I had no idea you could even talk about this. You are taught you do not discuss this with anyone. Children need to know they have a right to say no and to complain about their treatment. They must be taught to speak truth no matter what. They are programed to keep quite and feel shame and must be made to understand they are not to blame and they must speak up. It does not prevent it from happening, but it can bring it to a halt from being repeated. At the same time, they must be made to understand that to say something has happened, when it hasn't, is wrong. We must not accuse wrongfully, but we must listen to children and take their side. These people who know something is happening and look the other way are just as guilty.

The false reporting rate for sexual abuse is around 4-8%, and those false reports are usually generated by adults. Children should absolutely be taught to tell the truth, but on this particular issue, it is not children who wrongly accuse. Teaching them that in this context may drive reporting down.

I agree, children must be taught boundaries, that they have a right to their body, that they can tell people when they are uncomfortable with someone and respected when they say no to things. That is no doubt a part of mental health interventions: Ensuring children have voices, and that they are respected when they speak up.

However, most experts I have seen - as uncomfortable as this makes us - indicate that harsher penalties alongside mandatory reporting actually drive reporting rates down. Rather than encouraging people to report abuse, people refuse to because again, those that abuse are people known and trusted in the community. Yet Prevention Project Dunkelfeld, in the absence of mandatory reporting and harsh penalties, has been met with thousands of people coming forward for help. I do wonder if they are on to something with that, even if it is not a popular approach.

 

[Tolworth John]

Please remain on topic. Do you have ideas for preventing sexual abuse?

You have a limited view of what a child is and what child abuse is.


You want a practical idea. Pray for revival.

How else is a society obsessed with sexual gratication going to change and honour women, children and marriage.

 

[Nithavela]

Kill everyone!

 

[TNF_13]

You have a limited view of what a child is and what child abuse is.


You want a practical idea. Pray for revival.

How else is a society obsessed with sexual gratication going to change and honour women, children and marriage.

A child is anyone under the age of 18, and child sexual abuse is fairly straightforward: Anyone significantly older than the child (developmentally) being sexual with a child, which can be behaviors or conversations, that results in harm to the child.

I question the effectiveness of simply praying about the issue and not doing something about it like learning the facts, learning safety tips, etc.

@Nithavela that would not be ethical, although we may end up doing that to ourselves at some point.

 

[Nithavela]

@Nithavela that would not be ethical, although we may end up doing that to ourselves at some point.

I disagree, wiping out the human race would be very ethical.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I understand wanting to end child abuse, but this isn't a realistic goal. There will always be crime. However, there are methods which can reduce it significantly. For example, prisons which aim to rehabilitate rather than punish. However, there is no "teach people not to abuse" that would reduce child abuse entirely. Even if there was a way to chemically alter brains that would prevent people from enacting abusive thoughts, there would always be people with unusual brain structure for whom this would not work.

 

[TNF_13]

I understand wanting to end child abuse, but this isn't a realistic goal. There will always be crime. However, there are methods which can reduce it significantly. For example, prisons which aim to rehabilitate rather than punish. However, there is no "teach people not to abuse" that would reduce child abuse entirely. Even if there was a way to chemically alter brains that would prevent people from enacting abusive thoughts, there would always be people with unusual brain structure for whom this would not work.

Really? Then why do so many non-profits, research organizations, researchers, therapists, and others dedicate their entire lives to making sure that fewer children are abused? Yes, there will always be crime, but we can end sexual abuse as an epidemic, which was my point. Right now, it affects up to 20% of children, and that is indeed an epidemic. What if it only affected 5%?

 

[PsychoSarah]

Really? Then why do so many non-profits, research organizations, researchers, therapists, and others dedicate their entire lives to making sure that fewer children are abused?

Because reducing crime is an obtainable and noble goal. One could definitely reduce the rates of child abuse... just not entirely eliminate it. Unless you want our species to become like the Borg or something.

Yes, there will always be crime, but we can end sexual abuse as an epidemic, which was my point. Right now, it affects up to 20% of children, and that is indeed an epidemic. What if it only affected 5%?

20% of children worldwide? If so, sex trafficking would distort the numbers, as well as differences in the age of consent in different countries. That is, you have to tackle the issue region by region. The differences in child abuse rates could be a matter of different laws, culture, etc. Regardless, there wouldn't be one standard method that would reduce this problem in every country.

 

[PreviouslySeeking...]

I am for wiping out the entire planet.
I am pretty sure sexual abuse affects more than 20% of children.
And if it is an "epidemic" - it is a very, very old one.

Unless you are going to raise and educate all children in orphanages where they are cared for by asexual empaths who've passed a battery of psychological evaluations and stay in weekly (minimum) therapy to monitor for aggression, control issues and various other potential problems...

Honestly, there are too many factors that might make one person an abuser. And if you are going to focus on adult perpetrators- you will miss a lot. Including myself, I know 3 women and 1 man who were raped by a brother or stepbrother. None of these assailants was an adult, they were all teens. One brother was younger than his sister, but he was also stronger.

Humans are horribly flawed and seemingly predisposed to hurt each other. If we haven't been able to out an end to violence, greed, cruelty & the like - how could we stop child abuse? It is a symptom of other ills.

 

[PsychoSarah]

I am for wiping out the entire planet.

-_- committing genocide of biblical proportions to end crime is not the moral high ground, given that the majority of humanity are fairly neutral to mildly good people.

I am pretty sure sexual abuse affects more than 20% of children.

Statistics on that would be fairly difficult to get for the world as a whole, given that child sexual abuse isn't even a crime in many countries, and it is a fairly under-reported crime. However, using the USA as an example country, and acting as if all child abuse reported were legitimate abuse and sexual in nature, the number would be about 10% of children are sexually abused. Of course, certain aspects of my math that are fairly obvious would inflate that number.

Unless you are going to raise and educate all children in orphanages where they are cared for by asexual empaths who've passed a battery of psychological evaluations and stay in weekly (minimum) therapy to monitor for aggression, control issues and various other potential problems...

Honestly, there are too many factors that might make one person an abuser. And if you are going to focus on adult perpetrators- you will miss a lot. Including myself, I know 3 women and 1 man who were raped by a brother or stepbrother. None of these assailants was an adult, they were all teens. One brother was younger than his sister, but he was also stronger.

I think education on child-to-child sexual abuse to parents would help a lot in these situations.

Humans are horribly flawed and seemingly predisposed to hurt each other. If we haven't been able to out an end to violence, greed, cruelty & the like - how could we stop child abuse? It is a symptom of other ills.

Flawed though we may be, we are still a social species. You and I wouldn't be appalled at people hurting each other if this was a predisposition our species had.

 

[Nithavela]

-_- committing genocide of biblical proportions to end crime is not the moral high ground, given that the majority of humanity are fairly neutral to mildly good people.

I disagree, nearly all of humanity is horrible and the small amount that isn't is far too busy to deal with the horribleness of the rest to achieve anything usefull. Better give evolution a mulligan.