Matthew 23:9 is it a Blow / Bashing Against Catholics...?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

1 Corinthians 4:15
For though you might have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers. Indeed, in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Hmmm. Are you suggesting we should call our church leaders "Guardians"?

 

[Philip_B]

Hmmm. Are you suggesting we should call our church leaders "Guardians"?

That was used in the Benedictine tradition in middle England I believe. However no, that was not the suggestion I was making, simply highlighting the passage where Paul describes himself as Father.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

That was used in the Benedictine tradition in middle England I believe. However no, that was not the suggestion I was making, simply highlighting the passage where Paul describes himself as Father.

<grin> I knew that. Just teasing you.

 

[concretecamper]

Yes, I was aware of that, LoL.

Since both kepha31 and Jerome take the some position on the issue, how about if you answer my question for me. Kepha stated the following:


And then you added that Jerome's response was similar:


My reply was as follows:


That reply was to Kepha, but I also asked you directly:


So I'm still wanting to know what the Catholic reply is to this point.

If you can read this entire chapter of Matthew and not see that the Pharisees and Scribes have put themselves in the place of Him, then I can't help you.

 

[Monk Brendan]

You can honor someone without calling them "Father". You can can call them by their real name (William, Stanley, Eugene, George, Harry etc.).

Pop quiz time. Can you, without looking at your Bible, tell me what the next verse says?

 

[Monk Brendan]

I'm not in the habit of bashing anyone, but I do have to say that this post comes of as antagonistic. Are you sure your heart is in the right place regarding your brothers and sisters in Christ, or do you regard all Protestants as on their way to Hell?

The above is the slickest way of doubting someone's salvation I have ever heard. But Hidden, the same goes back to you? Do you regard all Catholics as going to hell?

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

Pop quiz time. Can you, without looking at your Bible, tell me what the next verse says?

Oh please, no one is being persecuted for doing the right thing here...the OP brought up the issue of father and was corrected.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Oh please, no one is being persecuted for doing the right thing here...the OP brought up the issue of father and was corrected.

I think the BIBLE (JESUS specifically) says anyone who follows HIM, anyone who chooses to do what is right (to take a stand for what is righ) will suffer persecution....
so, yes, it is happening, everywhere on earth, just as Jesus said it would (as it has since , well, always)

 

[YHWH_will_uplift]

I think the BIBLE (JESUS specifically) says anyone who follows HIM, anyone who chooses to do what is right (to take a stand for what is righ) will suffer persecution....
so, yes, it is happening, everywhere on earth, just as Jesus said it would (as it has since , well, always)

Except being corrected for being in error does not qualify as being persecuted. There are some cult groups who when fleeing the law inform their members that they are undergoing "persecution".

 

[Monk Brendan]

Now you could argue that Catholic priests are not doing this so much as positioning themselves as representatives of the Heavenly Father, such as for doing things like receiving confessions and the like

A Catholic, or Orthodox priest is called "Father." They do not take this title upon themselves, they are given it. And when operating AS priests, they stand IN PERSONA CHRISTI, which means that they represent the Son, and not the Father. If you are going to dump on Catholics, at least know the correct doctrine first.

And before you go any farther, the Catholic Church, in union with ALL Christianity, does NOT worship Mary or the saints. It is expressly taught AGAINST!

"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship." The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs. . . . This very special devotion . . . differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.

Note: it says devotion to, not worship of. Being a good Christian, I would guess that you were devoted to your mother, and if she is still alive, you remain devoted to her, doing the little things she can't do any more. My mother died about fifteen years ago. All her life she treated me as a disposable work unit, and nothing more. But I still love her, and miss her.

Just so, Catholics are devoted to Mary. We do not worship her. It goes against the Catholic faith to worship Mary or any of the saints, and if you think I'm mistaken, wrong, "missing God's will for my life," or anything else, then you are totally off point, and maybe you're not listening to the Holy Spirit as close as you THINK you are.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Except being corrected for being in error does not qualify as being persecuted. There are some cult groups who when fleeing the law inform their members that they are undergoing "persecution".

That's correct.

I wasn't referring to any so-called "emotional" whatever's here, nor of the sort....

It is not at all feasible, most likely, to bring out and expose what is being done to ekklesia everywhere, "off line" in person, for real, every day.... even in the usa....

nor is it permitted, most likely, to bring out and expose who is doing it.....

 

[Monk Brendan]

Protestants have slight differences in PRACTICE, ... but tend to avoid unhealthy attachments to "personalities". Certainly we avoid the authoritarian addition to "what has been laid down by the Apostles" ... to bring in new and innovative beliefs, such as "The Assumption of Mary".

Forgive me, but that is baloney. Some Protestant Christian churches believe that honor belongs to Mary and all the saints. Some do not. Some denominations believe that you MUST be baptized in the Holy Spirit, and some do not. The differences run from A to Z. Sometimes, you will find two or three non-denominational churches (which simply means that each community is a denomination of one, led by a man who may or may not be a honest preacher, but also may be a drug dealer) in a row, along the same road, and you won't be able to tell a dime's worth of difference in their doctrine.

but tend to avoid unhealthy attachments to "personalities"

OH? Like Jimmy Swaggart, or Oral Roberts, or Billy Graham? As a matter of fact, most of the big problems Protestant churches have is the GROWTH of personalities. How far should I go back? Amy Semple McPherson? Charles Finney? George Witherspoon? There are many more examples.

 

[Monk Brendan]

It is not at all feasible, most likely, to bring out and expose what is being done to ekklesia everywhere, "off line" in person, for real, every day.... even in the usa....

Do you have someone you're trying to out?

 

[Monk Brendan]

It's talking about spiritual figures. Also, "Honour your father and mother" is the fifth commandment, not the fourth. The fourth is actually, "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour and do all thy work but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God." Which Catholics also don't follow.

Please remember that Catholics number the commandments differently. We have all of them.

 

[Monk Brendan]

Pop quiz time. Can you, without looking at your Bible, tell me what the next verse says?

Matthew 23:10 “Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.”

That also means you can't call anyone "mister" because that is the same as calling them master. Master was used in England for men of some rank, especially "free masters" of a trade guild and by any manual worker or servant employee addressing his employer (his master), but also generally by those lower in status to gentlemen, priests, or scholars.

After its replacement in common speech by Mister, Master was retained as a form of address only for boys who have not yet entered society. By the late 19th century, etiquette dictated that men be addressed as Mister, and boys as Master.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread had a clean up. As a reminder, the Statement of Purpose for this forum includes:
​

• Do not identify a group of members or a theological viewpoint with a derogatory or inflammatory label.

and

• Examples of inflammatory words/phrases (including but not limited to): idolaters, false/different/other gospel, false prophet, false doctrine, heretics, blasphemers, evil, sheep in wolves clothing, different God, antichrists, Antichrist, cannibalism/cannibal (concerning Eucharist), Judaizer.

Add "anti-___" to that.
​

Keep it civil and on the OP. ​

 

[Hidden In Him]

The above is the slickest way of doubting someone's salvation I have ever heard. But Hidden, the same goes back to you? Do you regard all Catholics as going to hell?

Of course not!

If you can read this entire chapter of Matthew and not see that the Pharisees and Scribes have put themselves in the place of Him, then I can't help you.

I don't follow you. I can understand that as an interpretation of what is going on, but I think that is reading into the text. In Matthew 23:28 Jesus tells them that they "outwardly appear righteous unto men." How could they both appear outwardly righteous unto men and yet be elevating themselves to the level of God at the same time? They regarded this to be a grave sin on the part of Jesus (John 5:28, John 10:33). Are you saying their position was that it was ok for them to elevate themselves to the level of God but not for Jesus to?

 

[Hidden In Him]

And when operating AS priests, they stand IN PERSONA CHRISTI, which means that they represent the Son, and not the Father. If you are going to dump on Catholics, at least know the correct doctrine first.

Brendan, I was not dumping on Catholics. Why all these accusations? I've had four different people now in this thread alone level false accusations against me. In all kindness, you guys need to cut this business out. I was trying to find out what the actual Catholic position is.

At this point I'm getting worn out, so looks like I'll have to figure it out next time.

 

[AvaLynn]

Some denominations consider it the fourth because they conveniently remove the second (the one about bowing down to graven images), slide 3-9 up a slot, add split the tenth into two parts.

[/
QUOTE]


Yes, I am aware that the Catholic Church has done this. We should never change the Word of God.

 

[AvaLynn]

Please remember that Catholics number the commandments differently. We have all of them.

Actually, the Roman Catholic Church has taken out the original second commandment that tells us that we should not bow down to any carved image on earth, as that is idolatry. They then split up the tenth commandment, to look like they have them all. So no, God's Words have been changed and excluded.