Acceptance of Sin

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Lately through a Facebook conversation, I have found several Orthodox that seem to be soft on homosexuality. They admit it is a sin, but will quickly tell you how other sins are much worse. Several support same sex civil unions. Honestly, as a new convert this has deadened a part of me.

What are your thoughts?
 

jckstraw72

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They are wrong. Not everyone who is formally a member of the Church totally adheres to the teachings and life of the Church (this is not an easy task, as you will be finding out!).

According to the Fathers, homosexuality is actually one of the worst sins - St. John Chrysostom even says it's worse than murder, because while murder destroys the body, homosexuality destroys the soul.

Keep your eyes fixed on what is good and lovely and edifying. The saints show us what is possible in the Church. Us shleps who are failing to live up to that level don't take away from what the Church offers. Take heart!
 
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Hermit76

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Thanks for the reply and encouragement. I struggle and want to run away. I am tired of running and I truly believe that Orthodoxy is the true church. I need to, perhaps, stay away from Facebook when things of faith are concerned.
 
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ArmyMatt

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They are wrong. Not everyone who is formally a member of the Church totally adheres to the teachings and life of the Church (this is not an easy task, as you will be finding out!).

According to the Fathers, homosexuality is actually one of the worst sins - St. John Chrysostom even says it's worse than murder, because while murder destroys the body, homosexuality destroys the soul.

Keep your eyes fixed on what is good and lovely and edifying. The saints show us what is possible in the Church. Us shleps who are failing to live up to that level don't take away from what the Church offers. Take heart!

this. and sexual sins damage the soul of two people, whereas murder only damages the soul of the murderer.
 
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gzt

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I think we do get a little out of focus, though, whenever we start to rail about sins that we are not personally tempted by. It's one thing for a bishop or somebody else charged with stating what the Church believes about X,Y, and Z, but for us pedestrians it's probably better to keep our eyes on our own plates.

Also in this matter opinion about civil legislation is a matter of prudential judgment rather than something dictated by the faith - CS Lewis had a bit about this when England was changing their divorce laws and he was not in favor of some of the religious discussion opposing the changes. Basically, he said that most people weren't Christian and that we shouldn't impose our moral standards on others, as we wouldn't appreciate it if, say, somebody else banned alcohol.

However, this doesn't by any means imply t hat we are somehow soft on sin or that people saying these things are somehow disobedient to the Church or not being good Christians or are even necessarily in any way wrong.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I think we can be misled, perhaps, and I need to be aware not to contribute to this. I do think it's important to have compassion on those affected by this particular cross. HOWEVER ... such compassion cannot extend - ever - to saying that sin is not really sin. It is not the unforgivable sin, and I don't like to see people draw themselves up in self-righteousness, making special condemnation of those so tempted, just because they themselves are not tempted.

But no, it is and always has been sin. The Church has not and should not ever perform same-sex marriages. Individuals may develop different sympathies and opinions, but the teaching of the Church does not and should not change.

There have also been rather public voices in Orthodoxy of late that have tread close to this error, and that may be influencing public opinion. And FB is rather notorious for being one of the worst places for "internet Orthodoxy".

I don't mean to totally discredit FB, because I have a carefully developed list of friends there that are VERY edifying (with a few requests I also accepted that I have to be more careful of, but I know who they are in general at least). But FB Orthodoxy groups can be toxic (including some I'm probably a member of since I end up being added to everything). Be very careful there. And I hope you can be encouraged.

BTW, it IS important to understand that the Church is composed of people, many of whom are dealing with brokenness in varying degrees. They/we need the Church too. :) But don't let individual people who might not have progressed in cooperating with grace of God to a great degree turn you off to the Church as a whole. She is a hospital for sinners.

God be with you.
 
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Hermit76

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I am not "railing" about homosexuality. I am stating that others in the church seem to be actively supportive of homosexuality.

I do disagree with your reasoning though. I'm not sure how it is ok for someone to tell me to, in essence, mind my own business regarding the sins of others. Aren't they breaking their own rule by pointing out my supposed sins of judgement?
 
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gzt

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I didn't mean to accuse you personally of railing about it, but rather trying to exxplain where some other people might be coming from. However, I don't quite see how advising that it's best for most of us to mind our own business is somehow judgmental.

I'm also a little confused as you seem to have changed your story - your first post said: They admit it is a sin, but will quickly tell you how other sins are much worse. However, you're now saying that these people are "actively supportive" of homosexuality - this is a completely different thing, as how can they call it a sin and still "actively support" it? Perhaps we need more explanation from you about what exactly is going on.
 
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Hermit76

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I didn't mean to accuse you personally of railing about it, but rather trying to exxplain where some other people might be coming from. However, I don't quite see how advising that it's best for most of us to mind our own business is somehow judgmental.

I'm also a little confused as you seem to have changed your story - your first post said: They admit it is a sin, but will quickly tell you how other sins are much worse. However, you're now saying that these people are "actively supportive" of homosexuality - this is a completely different thing, as how can they call it a sin and still "actively support" it? Perhaps we need more explanation from you about what exactly is going on.

They support civil unions.
 
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gzt

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I disagree that this would by necessity be actively supportive, as I've encountered many arguments for them which can't be characterized that way.

EDIT: I recall seeing this article way back in the day, for instance: Civil Unions: Would a Marriage by any Other Name Be the Same? I think we're drifting into something which Orthodox Christians in good faith can disagree on.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I disagree that this would by necessity be actively supportive, as I've encountered many arguments for them which can't be characterized that way.

EDIT: I recall seeing this article way back in the day, for instance: Civil Unions: Would a Marriage by any Other Name Be the Same? I think we're drifting into something which Orthodox Christians in good faith can disagree on.

Whether or not we can in conscience disagree I think depends on the definition of marriage.

A civil union seen as no more than a social legal contract - in a sense can be seen as none of our business as it relates to those outside the Church, to any degree greater than the fact that sin in general concerns and affects the world. And indeed, need not be restricted to a sexually-involved couple but could protect two sisters, for example, or various other household arrangements.

But if we begin to call it same-sex marriage, and see it as the same as a sacramental marriage, then I think we are obligated to be oppposed.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Certainly, but the issue the OP seems concerned about is the civil unions.

Agreed. Then perhaps he might find that something else is meant and his mind might be reassured.

Or maybe the people really DO mean "marriage" just under another label - in which case I don't think we should be supporting it in the name of Orthodoxy.

However, I have my own faults, an am not looking to cast stones at people I have never met.

Just discussing the issue as it was brought to us by the OP.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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Lately through a Facebook conversation, I have found several Orthodox that seem to be soft on homosexuality. They admit it is a sin, but will quickly tell you how other sins are much worse. Several support same sex civil unions. Honestly, as a new convert this has deadened a part of me.

What are your thoughts?
Be careful what you read on the Internet from "Orthodox" posters. There are no Fathers of the Church nor bishops who are "soft" on homosexuality. There are unfortunately a number of Orthodox on the internet that are soft on homosexuality (orthodoxchristianity.net is full of them, sadly). And unfortunately there are a few priests who are soft on homosexuality (a particular one in Boston, sadly). I suspect this is more a North American problem than a problem with most other jurisdictions (Finland excluded, obviously).

Regarding civil unions, you are venturing outside the realm of Christian morality and into the realm of politics, about which sincere Orthodox Christians of good will may disagree. I personally favour a State that stays out of the lives of people as much as possible, because I think a Big Church can flourish and fill the void of a Big State. So I would like the State to get out of the marriage business. That means that I accept that people, including gays, might want to formalise whatever relationship they have. I don't want the State to formalise that and I of course don't want the Church to recognise "homosexual marriage". But if gays want to legalise their relationships, I am ok with that.

That doesn't mean I support gay marriage. I think homosexual "marriage" is a farce and leads to a world of darkness. So does fornication, by the way. And just as I wouldn't want to make fornication illegal, I also wouldn't want to make homosexual unions illegal. As far as I am concerned, people can legally do what they want as long as they don't harm others. But all that is legal is not moral. We don't take our moral lessons from the State, but from God.

So whilst I would argue there is no Christian view on homosexuality other than to say it is gravely wrong, sinful and leads to death, I think Christians can disagree on how much the State should be involved in enforcing Christian morality. I would rather have a small State that just left us alone, but I know there are other Orthodox Christians of good will (eg Father Trenham) who would disagree with me somewhat.
 
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Hermit76

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I'm sorry I haven't checked back. There was wood to split.

I think to delineate my position I should clarify. There is a difference in accepting civil unions as an event and actively promoting them as an alternative to marriage. Not everyone in the given conversation that supported civil unions crossed that line. There comes a point where a Christian leaves passive allowance and delves into aiding the sin. I believe there is sin in assisting a homosexual relationship, especially where the civil union is seen as an alternative to marriage.
 
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PittBullMom

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I struggle with this, my daughter is a lesbian and I do love her very much. She is my baby. I'm totally torn on the topic. I don't understand homosexuality at all. There is not a Christian denomination out there that has not condemned it. Despite her being raised in a religious environment, she is who she is. I just have to leave it in God's hands.
 
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Mary of Bethany

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I struggle with this, my daughter is a lesbian and I do love her very much. She is my baby. I'm totally torn on the topic. I don't understand homosexuality at all. There is not a Christian denomination out there that has not condemned it. Despite her being raised in a religious environment, she is who she is. I just have to leave it in God's hands.

I understand. Someone I care about very much, a former Orthodox Christian, left his wife and family and is now in a homosexual "marriage". I don't understand how he could seemingly slam the door on the Faith in a way that makes it almost impossible for him to come back. All I can do is pray fervently for his salvation.
 
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Jesus4Madrid

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I struggle with this, my daughter is a lesbian and I do love her very much. She is my baby. I'm totally torn on the topic. I don't understand homosexuality at all. There is not a Christian denomination out there that has not condemned it. Despite her being raised in a religious environment, she is who she is. I just have to leave it in God's hands.
That is really hard, I can imagine. I am sorry.

I do have friends who have same sex attraction and lead happy, fulfilled celibate lives as committed Christians. It is possible.

And of course amongst the most joyful people I have met are the monks on Mt. Athos. They demonstrate that celibacy is far from an onerous burden and may in fact be a blessing, as St. Paul tells us.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I struggle with this, my daughter is a lesbian and I do love her very much. She is my baby. I'm totally torn on the topic. I don't understand homosexuality at all. There is not a Christian denomination out there that has not condemned it. Despite her being raised in a religious environment, she is who she is. I just have to leave it in God's hands.

Lord have mercy! my best friend growing up came out as having same sex attraction, I can't imagine such a cross to bear.
 
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PittBullMom

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I believe it is very important to have compassion on all people, regardless of sin. Gay marriage will never happen in any church. Marriage has always been a religious rite around the world. However, protecting the church should be for the love of God and His church. Then, somehow, like a balancing act.... we shouldn't lash out and hate gay people. I just don't know what makes them the way they are. They themselves don't know why, and some wish that they weren't that way. I

I see civil unions as mock marriages. They are not 100% necessary to protect assets or estates. Any living will or notarized document can settle those disputes. Somehow, some way our legal system took on the right to perform a religious in nature ceremony. I personally don't like it.

As for my daughter, celibacy is not something you can force another person to do. It's an option for her, but the choice is hers to make. We all make choices. Everyone has confessions to make. No one shows up and tells the priest they didn't sin and have nothing to say. These days straight people have inappropriate content addictions, multiple partners, cohabitation, etc. and can be so sexually depraved it might even be worse than being gay.

Now...what if...what if my daughter wanted a civil union? I would attend. I will not abandon my child. I carried her for 9 months, I raised her, I love her. I will be at her side till I die. I'm her mother. It's a bond that can't be described. Of all the people you're close to...how many lived inside of your body and shared your blood? Or vice versa?

This isn't easy. It's easy to be on the side lines and talk about the detestable sin of homosexuality. This is a very complicated condition for gay people. They need compassion.
 
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