What does this verse mean? Was Paul a liar?

rockytopva

Love to pray! :)
Supporter
Mar 6, 2011
20,038
7,664
.
Visit site
✟1,056,135.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

When a Christian experienced Christ he should have also experienced a spiritual energy and light. This energy can dissipate away into something else if we are not careful.

I was at youth conference decades ago and I made reference to, "the devil in church people." One man in particular argued that the devil could not penetrate the blood of the lamb and actually took steps to make it bad for me at conference.

Years later, at camp meeting, he looks me up and apologizes. I have often wondered what the poor man went through to understand that yes, sometimes the devil can work through church people and give them evil spirits in the process.

If I could go back to that time I would have been more crafty and subtle in my answering. By just opening my mouth and blurting out about the "devil in church people" was not being crafty and subtle. I would have thought my thoughts out more before just blurting them out. This is the case with Paul. He was trying to deal with the craftiness of sin in church people and had to use an approach in dealing with it.
 
Upvote 0

T.S.Bland

Love God Love People
Sep 24, 2017
96
89
52
Kentucky
✟18,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
But did Paul DECEIVE (lie) in order to gain converts?
I believe this is more of a rhetorical statement. At the time Paul's plans had changed and he was not able to be in Corinth as planned. With news of this message, there were several false "apostles" calling themselves the "super-apostles" trying to deceive the church of Corinth with false doctrine and using Paul's delay in plans as an example of his supposed inability to lead them.
In the first nine chapters he is mainly speaking of his delay in plans, restoring a certain church member who had been viciously attacking his credibility, defending his own credibility, and encouraging the relief offering for the Jerusalem believers.
Between these chapters and the last three, he received message about what I had first mentioned about the false leaders trying to take over the church in Corinth.
He, in my opinion, became rightfully defensive of his authority and position within the church of Corinth.
In his defense he began to question their integrity and loyalty. Which some other posters saw as sarcasm etc..
The last verse is a stern warning of what will take place when he returns.
In conclusion Paul , I think, was returning without lenience. He urged them to examine themselves carefully to determine whether their faith was genuine.
When I try to imagine this dialogue, I think of it like a friend being away out of town, and another group of gossips try stabbing him in the back while he's not there to defend himself. That friend finds out what's going on and questions me about why I would be listening to the nonsense in the first place. While he questions my loyalty, he may ask rhetorical questions to make me think about where my heads at.
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
When I try to imagine this dialogue, I think of it like a friend being away out of town, and another group of gossips try stabbing him in the back while he's not there to defend himself. That friend finds out what's going on and questions me about why I would be listening to the nonsense in the first place. While he questions my loyalty, he may ask rhetorical questions to make me think about where my heads at.
Sure. But I wouldn't tell my friend that I had deceived him.
 
Upvote 0

disciple1

Newbie
Aug 1, 2012
2,168
546
✟61,978.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?
I think you need to read verses before and after, if you want look at many translations.
verse 15
So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Yes, you're right! I'm not Gandalf!
Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
21,124
9,946
The Void!
✟1,125,860.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?

It's a small bit of sarcasm presented in a corrective manner. How do we know this? We know this because if we do our exegesis correctly, we'll see that this statement is stated toward the end of chapter 12, and the whole line of Paul's thought in that chapter is a warning to the Corinthians not to continue to disregard his good intentions in preaching the Gospel or his authority within the church given to him in Christ.

Apparently, and according to the overall context in whole letter of 2 Corinthians, there were some Corinthian 'believers' who were scoffing at Paul and casting derision at him...while they continued to sin and flip their nose at God's spiritual discipline. I think Paul was posing sarcasm at the scoffers who were continuing to sin (and we see this in verse 20-21, and into the first several verses of chapter 13). He wasn't indicating that he lied in any way.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

T.S.Bland

Love God Love People
Sep 24, 2017
96
89
52
Kentucky
✟18,545.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It isan
Sure. But I wouldn't tell my friend that I had deceived him.
Open ended statement.
For example if the gossipers said my friend was trying to date my boyfriend.
The friend that is away may make the statement(while hurt)" now I in love with your boyfriend"...
It doesn't mean she is actually in love with him, it means she is wondering in her pain, what the heck are you thinking...NOW IM IN LOVE WITH YOUR BOYFRIEND???
Like, are you for real??

Just think about the entire picture in Paul's writing. He has so much hurt, anger and disbelief with the church's lack of faith.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Hank77
Upvote 0

Hank77

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 26, 2015
26,368
15,457
✟1,099,038.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It sure looks that way to me.
Here it is in Young's Literal Translation

2Co 12:15 and I most gladly will spend and be entirely spent for your souls, even if, more abundantly loving you, less I am loved.
2Co 12:16 And be it so , I--I did not burden you, but being crafty, with guile I did take you;
2Co 12:17 any one of those whom I have sent unto you--by him did I take advantage of you?
2Co 12:18 I entreated Titus, and did send with him the brother; did Titus take advantage of you? in the same spirit did we not walk? --did we not in the same steps?

Notice that verses 16 and 17 are all one sentence ending with a question mark.
Paul asks them these questions and then points out that he and those he sent walk in the same spirit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2PhiloVoid
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,565
New Jersey
✟1,147,348.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
NRSV translates it that he's quoting an accusation.

"16 Let it be assumed that I did not burden you. Nevertheless (you say) since I was crafty, I took you in by deceit. 17 Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you?" (2 Co 12:16–18).

Paul's letters are often responding to things he has heard or read in letters from them. Commentators generally identify some sections of his letters as quoting the other party in order to respond. It's reasonable to think that this is such a case.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GandalfTheWise

In search of lost causes and hopeless battles
May 27, 2012
357
535
Wisconsin
✟71,403.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?

I think that this needs to be taken in the context of chapters 10, 11, and 12. It appears that Paul was addressing some accusations against himself and others in ministry. Much of what is written in these chapters seems to be defending himself and others.

I Cor 11:8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you.

Did Paul actually rob them? No. This seems like a verbal device to make a point. Instead of factually saying other churches supported him in ministry, he made it sound like a foolish accusation.

I Cor 11:17 In this self-confident boasting I am not talking as the Lord would, but as a fool.

Paul is obviously using some uncomfortable descriptions and explanations to make his point.

I Cor 12:13 How were you inferior to the other churches, except that I was never a burden to you? Forgive me this wrong!

Was this really something wrong that needed to be forgiven? Probably not. It is again pointing out some foolishness in the accusations he was facing.

I Cor 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children. 15 So I will very gladly spend for you everything I have and expend myself as well. If I love you more, will you love me less? 16 Be that as it may, I have not been a burden to you. Yet, crafty fellow that I am, I caught you by trickery! 17 Did I exploit you through any of the men I sent to you? 18 I urged to go to you and I sent our brother with him. Titus did not exploit you, did he? Did we not walk in the same footsteps by the same Spirit?

I tend to take verse 16 in the same spirit as the ones in previous chapters. It's probably just a verbal twist to point out the foolishness of accusations. I take his tone and meaning to be the following. I think he's sarcastically making a false accusation against himself (possibly like real accusations being made) that all of his concern and ministry effort and being self-supporting was really just an act to eventually be able to take advantage of them in some way.
 
Upvote 0

Radagast

comes and goes
Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

The general understanding is that Paul is quoting an accusation against him. Paul is responding by saying that neither he nor Titus took advantage of the Corinthians.
 
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
The general understanding is that Paul is quoting an accusation against him. Paul is responding by saying that neither he nor Titus took advantage of the Corinthians.
Then why does he use first person instead of third person?
 
Upvote 0

The Kingdom Society

New Member
Sep 27, 2017
1
0
23
Jacksonville
✟7,701.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
39,120
20,158
US
✟1,440,440.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I don't think the verse is sarcasm.

So if you had your own point of view from the beginning, why didn't you lay out your opinion and your argument in your OP instead of pretending to be asking an open question?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: kw5kw
Upvote 0

Open Heart

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2014
18,521
4,393
62
Southern California
✟49,214.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Celibate
So if you had your own point of view from the beginning, why didn't you lay out your opinion and your argument in your OP instead of pretending to be asking an open question?
I don't have a point of view. I really don't know how to interpret this verse. It just doesn't seem like sarcasm. It doesn't strike me that way. But I'm listening and considering it.
 
Upvote 0

friend of

A private in Gods army
Supporter
Dec 28, 2016
5,556
3,914
provincial
✟753,313.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I think Paul was very eloquent in letter

but in person he was not well spoken and dismissable on his own without the Spirit

If I had to venture a guess, that may be why he's being sarcastic here. He may have appeared to the Corinthians in person and they may have heeded him at the time, but now he needs to write them another letter. He may be remarking on his own painful lack of eloquence which would be sort of an endearing joke to share.
 
Upvote 0

spiritman

Well-Known Member
Jul 4, 2008
1,393
155
✟11,991.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
2 Corinthians 12:16
But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.

I find this very distressing. Surely Paul wasn't a liar, was he?

Here's the verse in the KJV:
16 But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

The word crafty according to the Greek could also be translated as skillful.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Radagast

comes and goes
Supporter
Dec 10, 2003
23,821
9,817
✟312,047.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Then why does he use first person instead of third person?

The ESV translates "But granting that I myself did not burden you, I was crafty, you say, and got the better of you by deceit."

Since the original Greek has no quotation marks, this interpretation (which is the usual one) is driven by the rather extreme language Paul is using, plus the context. This interpretation can also be found in Ambrosiaster's 4th-century commentary.

The Message for verses 16-18 has: And why is it that I keep coming across these whiffs of gossip about how my self-support was a front behind which I worked an elaborate scam? Where’s the evidence? Did I cheat or trick you through anyone I sent? I asked Titus to visit, and sent some brothers along. Did they swindle you out of anything? And haven’t we always been just as aboveboard, just as honest?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: T.S.Bland
Upvote 0