Prophecies, chronology, and the timing of these events

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
The king ahead of the vile person dies neither in battle nor anger.
This does not yet fit as to past days. Antichochus IV came to power by murder of a usurper. murder is anger

Herod died of an illness, after long suffering, probably cancer. Because he thought he had no one to mourn for him, he ordered that 40 leading Jews should be put to death to make sure that at his death there would be mourning. His orders were not carried out. He had
 
Upvote 0

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
What is confusing you about this is you don't know who Daniel 11:36 is refering too. Follow the hyperlinks. there is no disputing this is Herod and Octavian.

Sorry, I thought you were referring to me in that quote.
Thanks for the articles, I have just read most of them, I basically agree with most of them but you seem to struggle with Revelation mainly chaps. 11 and 12. For the witnesses who are also Candlesticks and Olive trees. (I don't know how the literalists take them as two people rather than Candlesticks or Olive trees.) Rev 1 :20 tells us that candlesticks are Churches.
E B Elliott interprets these as churches in the dark ages of Papal persecution. Two or three being the minimum number of witnesses required under the law. The Olive trees (sons of oil) being the godly pastors feeding the churches, led by the Holy Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
Daniel 11 shows that the lands of Israel and Egypt are conquered first - then later comes tidings out of the north and the south - and he heads to attack those areas.
He has gained many ships and comes as a whirlwind. Herod was not even a king over an empire.

  • 39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
  • 40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.
  • 41 He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many countries shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, even Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon.
  • 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
The strange God was Augustus. As you probably know, Roman Emperors were considered to be gods. The Kink of The North was, by this time, the Roman Emperor as they had long overthrown the Seluecids. The King of the South at this time was Cleopatra, aided by Antony. The latter pair were overthrown by Augustus. Herod managed to switch sides and joined Augustus.
  • 42 He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape.
  • 43 But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall be at his steps.
Augustus wanted the treasures of Egypt and rushed to defeat Cleopatra as he feared she would destroy them.
  • 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.
  • 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.
  • I have already commented on these verses.
  • 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
After a brief note on the Michael, it passes to a time time of trouble such as never was, Same as Matt, Mark and Luke.
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Sorry, I thought you were referring to me in that quote.
Thanks for the articles, I have just read most of them, I basically agree with most of them but you seem to struggle with Revelation mainly chaps. 11 and 12. For the witnesses who are also Candlesticks and Olive trees. (I don't know how the literalists take them as two people rather than Candlesticks or Olive trees.) Rev 1 :20 tells us that candlesticks are Churches.
E B Elliott interprets these as churches in the dark ages of Papal persecution. Two or three being the minimum number of witnesses required under the law. The Olive trees (sons of oil) being the godly pastors feeding the churches, led by the Holy Spirit.
Yes I do struggle with those because there is no direct interpretation of them in scripture. So I offer my best guess based on the general thrust of prophecy that is interpreted. It can't disagree with what is interpreted. What EB Elliot is saying is about the same thing. The Holy Spirit and the Word coming through the pastors and the churches being murderd in an attempt to silance them.
 
Upvote 0

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
Elliott's work Horae Apocalypticae is available on Google Books/Google play. It is four volumes. The witnesses are dealt with in volume two. If you wish to check, there are several different editions. The ones with coloured covers are easiest to identify. Make sure you remember which colour you have downloaded as none have volume numbers, you just have to download one till you find the correct volume.
The first volume starts by proving that the writer is John. then the date of the writing, the last volume has quite a number of appendices including one History of apocalyptic interpretation.

I had a set which my dad bought for ten shillings in a Brighton second hand shop. Last time I looked amazon listed two, one at over $6,000 and the other at over $8,000. I lost the last volume of mine while I was working in London, it disappeared from my office.
MY grandson begged a number of my books including those and an 8 volume set of Foxe's book of martyrs, dated 1846.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
Another useful book on Revelation is Key to the Apocalyspe By H Grattan Guinness, you can get it on Amazon in Kindle format if you with to pay for it, or you can download the PDF here for free. Key to the Apocalypse • Revival Fellowship New Zealand

Guinness bases his book on seven symbols which are divinely interpreted. It is easy reading and less than 70 pages in the PDF version.
 
Upvote 0

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
2 Chronicles 15:6
“And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity.”

-------This is similar to the nation shall rise against nation - kingdom against kingdom in Matthew 24.

I am not sure why you keep posting things like this which have nothing to with what we are discussing.

Apart from that, your quote is in the past tense.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I am not sure why you keep posting things like this which have nothing to with what we are discussing.

Apart from that, your quote is in the past tense.


Since I'm the one who initially started this thread, I was somewhat hoping that what I was wanting to discuss got discussed. Apparently not, though some of it did get discussed. I was mainly kind of wanting this discussion to be a debate between Premils and Amils, since two of the things I brought up thusfar, the first few verses in Isaiah 2 and Zech 14, where Premils typically see both still future, and that Amils don't, thus wanted to try and understand why Amils insist these can't be future after Christ has returned, regardless that I have been demonstrating contradictions if these are not meaning a time post the 2nd coming..
 
Upvote 0

Daniel Martinovich

Friend
Supporter
Oct 7, 2011
1,982
591
Southwest USA
Visit site
✟487,316.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Since I'm the one who initially started this thread, I was somewhat hoping that what I was wanting to discuss got discussed. Apparently not, though some of it did get discussed. I was mainly kind of wanting this discussion to be a debate between Premils and Amils, since two of the things I brought up thusfar, the first few verses in Isaiah 2 and Zech 14, where Premils typically see both still future, and that Amils don't, thus wanted to try and understand why Amils insist these can't be future after Christ has returned, regardless that I have been demonstrating contradictions if these are not meaning a time post the 2nd coming..

 
Upvote 0

David Kent

Continuing Historicist
Aug 24, 2017
2,173
663
86
Ashford Kent
✟116,777.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Conservative
John saw Rev. 15:1 and told us first there about what?
seven angels
After he introduces them to his readers, then what does he call them?
the seven angels
What does he call them in Rev. 8:2?
the seven angels
Seven angels are also mentioned in Rev 1:20
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums