hum...I can think of two times right off the top of my head, one in the OT and one in the NT where people who "received" or were told they had great faith questioned whether or not God would grant their request. So...if faith is believing it is done, then why did they accept that it might not happen as they desired...you were already given the example of Christ in the garden but we also have the firey furnace in the OT and the centurion in the NT and even Christ spoke about how great his faith was. How do these examples fit into your theology?
We have been talking about faith related praying with authority and having it answered because of that faith.
"Faith" can also be believing that it
can be done. The examples you point to are
not of people "speaking with authority in faith" that a certain thing be done for them by God. In fact they are obviously not that at all.
The example of Christ in the garden is an example of a man simply saying that if there be any other way to accomplish what God wanted accomplished other than what He saw in the scriptures happening He wished it to happen in that alternative manner. After expressing His desire, He bowed His head and left it in the hands of God. This is not a case of a man naming and claiming something in faith at all. It is simply a man of faith communicating His heart's desire to His God. We have been talking about the former.
Had Jesus prayed with "authority" as in the case of the moving mountain - He would have been praying amiss since He would have already received God's will on the subject. Although I wouldn't presume to a judge of this - it may even have been sin to do so.
However He did not do that - so it's immaterial. He simply expressed a prayer to God that if there was any other way than the way He saw in scripture and heard from the Holy Spirit He wished for that way to be done.
Likewise, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not claiming any particular thing in faith. They were simply affirming God's ability to deliver them and expressing their belief that He would do so.
We can express what we
believe God will do in a certain case and so doing is not the same a "saying to the mountain" (speaking with authority for something to be done).
Descriptive passages concerning events are not to be taken as anything more than that - descriptions of events. Prescriptive passages are to be taken for what they are - prescriptions of how to do things.
If we have a descriptive passage which serves as an example of a prescription for action - we certainly can refer to it for help in seeing clearly how a prescription can be brought to bear on life's issues at times.
The passage having to do with the uprooting of a mountain is neither. It is simply a statement of fact - a fact we should believe because it is told to us by our Lord.
Since we have other prescriptive passages concerning how to pray - we can perhaps bring the fact stated in the mountain passage to bear on that prescription as appropriate.
I guess I don't see where the centurion doubted that it would be done for him as he requested and believed. Nor do I see where he "named and claimed" anything either. In fact he didn't even pray for anything.
He simply stated that he had a sick servant and stated the facts concerning His personal trust in the ability of Jesus to heal. Jesus then commented on his faith in the Messiah's ability.
Like the fiery furnace passage before it - there is simply no prayer mentioned. Nor is there a request made. There is a simple affirmation by the involved people as to their faith that God was able to do mighty things.
Whether God looked at the general faith in Him held by the children of Israel in the furnace passage and rewarded that faith in Him as a good and powerful God with delivery from the furnace or if He would have done it in any case isn't information supplied for us.
These are descriptive passages. But if we can glean learning from them, then we should. But we should not try to glean more than is there lest we go beyond what is written.
now you are going down another rabbit trail with me that I have no interest in going down with you.
another rabbit trail? Why?
not sure why you bring up this rabbit trail but okay..
another rabbit trail I have no current interest in discussing since it takes us off topic.
But you are changing the question...
I am getting worn out by your long posts that go down all kinds of rabbit trails that I have no interest in and still avoid answering the question.
not a clue what you are going on about here.
I'm not really interested in your personal reasoning I am interesting in where in scripture you get the idea that God gives faith and takes it as well? As per the above clarifications of the question that I am not getting about your assertions to the issue at hand.
Ok - so my trying to help explain my theology in detail as you asked me to do amounts to rabbit trails and your examples (which aren't even prayer of the kind we are discussing) are not rabbit trails - according to you.
If you want ultra simple quips about my belief I can provide them easily with statements from scripture like the following.
"Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart." Ps.37:4
"You do not have because you do not ask."
James 4:2
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
Mark 6:5-6
And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.
James 5:16-18
Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much. Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.
Ephesians 3:12
in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in Him.
Hebrews 10:22
Verse Concepts
let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Matthew 21:21-22
And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
Mark 11:22-24
And Jesus answered saying to them, "Have faith in God. "Truly I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says is going to happen, it will be granted him. "Therefore I say to you, all things for which you pray and ask, believe that you have received them, and they will be granted you.
James 1:5-8
But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,
read more.
James 5:14-15
Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Matthew 9:27-30
As Jesus went on from there, two blind men followed Him, crying out, "Have mercy on us, Son of David!" When He entered the house, the blind men came up to Him, and Jesus said to them, "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" They said to Him, "Yes, Lord." Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
read more.
Matthew 8:5-13
And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, and saying, "Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented." Jesus said to him, "I will come and heal him."
read more.
Luke 7:1-10
When He had completed all His discourse in the hearing of the people, He went to Capernaum. And a centurion's slave, who was highly regarded by him, was sick and about to die. When he heard about Jesus, he sent some Jewish elders asking Him to come and save the life of his slave.
read more.
Matthew 9:20-22
And a woman who had been suffering from a hemorrhage for twelve years, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak; for she was saying to herself, "If I only touch His garment, I will get well." But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Mark 5:25-34
A woman who had had a hemorrhage for twelve years, and had endured much at the hands of many physicians, and had spent all that she had and was not helped at all, but rather had grown worse-- after hearing about Jesus, she came up in the crowd behind Him and touched His cloak.
read more.
Luke 8:43-48
And a woman who had a hemorrhage for twelve years, and could not be healed by anyone, came up behind Him and touched the fringe of His cloak, and immediately her hemorrhage stopped. And Jesus said, "Who is the one who touched Me?" And while they were all denying it, Peter said, "Master, the people are crowding and pressing in on You."
read more.
Matthew 15:21-28
Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed." But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
read more.
Mark 7:24-30
Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter.
read more.
1 Kings 18:36-37
At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word. "Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that You, O LORD, are God, and that You have turned their heart back again."
James 5:17-18
Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months. Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.
1 Kings 17:19-22
He said to her, "Give me your son." Then he took him from her bosom and carried him up to the upper room where he was living, and laid him on his own bed. He called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, have You also brought calamity to the widow with whom I am staying, by causing her son to die?" Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray You, let this child's life return to him."
read more.
2 Kings 4:32-35 When Elisha came into the house, behold the lad was dead and laid on his bed. So he entered and shut the door behind them both and prayed to the LORD. And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth and his eyes on his eyes and his hands on his hands, and he stretched himself on him; and the flesh of the child became warm.
There are many other of course but I don't want to burden you and I certainly wouldn't want to drag you down any rabbit trails with my explanations about how they work into my theology.
I'm not really interested in your personal reasoning I am interesting in where in scripture you get the idea that God gives faith and takes it as well?
"So then faith [comes] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Romans 10:17
Heb 12:2 says "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith". Heb. 12:2
" ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith.” Rom 12:3T
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Eph. 2:8
I don't recall saying that God takes faith away.
There you go. You can now post away without anyone giving you explanations which burden you to try and follow.
I have apologized to you for lumping your posts in with someone else and for any rudeness on my part. I have done my best to get us on a good track in spite of any misunderstandings I may have had.
I have endeavored to tell you what I believe, given you the scriptures I use to back it up, explained how those scriptures do not violate other scriptures when I take them so literally and on and on it goes.
But I don't believe you are really interested in what I believe and why I believe it.
You ask me what I believe and when I tell you what I believe you follow up with asking me to explain how that works in my theology. When I try to explain it you don't like the rabbit trails I take you down.
I study scripture up to 30 hours a week. I used to study over 40 hours a week but am taking a break to pursue another matter God has led me to. In that study I can easily consider in prayer an easy 500 - 1000 passages. If I quoted all the passages that I study on any given topic it would be way overload for this format. In fact, when I put the studies together each individual study makes for a long book.
Maybe something I have said or quoted will give you more information to add to your 1000 passages of scripture and you can put it into one of your long spiritual books.
I will end now because I don't want to take you beyond your oh so spiritual 40 hours of study a week.
Have fun talking with yourself and patting yourself on your spiritual back. I'll leave you to it now.