Did God create dragons?

[pat34lee]

The entirety of Job in the NRSV:

Job 39

No mention of unicorns there so therefore I don't see what you're trying to get at with your lack of actual scientific evidence and this bible waving to prove it and then trying to jump to conclusions, like all heterodoxers, that cause those of us that don't stand on shoddy reasoning have a lack of faith. Sorry but come up with a new tactic, this one doesn't work.

Now try a real translation like the KJV.

 

[Targaryen]

Sooo...
Did you read what I was responding to?

The terms dragon and dinosaur were used interchangeably
for many years. The only difference is that dragons are recent
history. Dinosaurs were made into myth by evolution and long
periods of time.

No, dragons refer to a mythological animal that in the West is usually attributed to evil or bad luck, possibly due to the Biblical quotation of Revelations. In the eat it's a mythological creature of wisdom. This word is not interchangeable with dinosaurs. The first scientific discovery of Dinosaurs was in 1824, though a prior case was recorded in 1676 but the thigh bone found was attributed to a "giant"

First Dinosaur Fossil Discoveries - Paleontology and Geology Glossary

 

[pat34lee]

No, dragons refer to a mythological animal that in the West is usually attributed to evil or bad luck, possibly due to the Biblical quotation of Revelations. In the eat it's a mythological creature of wisdom. This word is not interchangeable with dinosaurs. The first scientific discovery of Dinosaurs was in 1824, though a prior case was recorded in 1676 but the thigh bone found was attributed to a "giant"

First Dinosaur Fossil Discoveries - Paleontology and Geology Glossary

Dragons were never mythological until they became rare, in the middle ages.
The gorilla and orangutans were myths too, at least to the 'experts'.
The people who lived around them knew better.

 

[Targaryen]

Dragons were never mythological until they became rare, in the middle ages.
The gorilla and orangutans were myths too, at least to the 'experts'.
The people who lived around them knew better.

You need to quit while you're behind. Dragons, a mythological creature, not a real one, became "rare" in the middle ages? The gorilla and and orangutan were "myths" based on what exact evidence?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some scientist (Christians) believe Noah put dino on the ark!

Yes. Dinosaurs were on the ark. They were no doubt the baby versions. Also, the Scriptures say that God was the One who called the animals to come to Noah onto the ark. So if they were cooperating in this way by God, then they no doubt were not acting violent or aggressive onboard the ark, either.

As for the Leviathan (which is a dragon), that puppy is aquatic.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, I don't have any problem with believing God when He speaks to Job, who obviously knew what creature God was talking about, about a fire breathing creature.

But when expecting others to believe what you believe the Bible clearly says, you might take note about when the Bible says the last days were or at least began. To me this is more important than if fire breathing dragons ever existed.

This is Peter speaking on the first Pentecost about the giving of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:16 `But this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;......

God did not put fire breathing dragons in His Word for no reason. All Scripture is profitable. Dragons (which are real) is compared with our adversary who is also real. We as believers have to always be on the look out spiritually.

 

[Hal A Peno]

zxdfh

 

[majj27]

Dragons were never mythological until they became rare, in the middle ages.

Big, flying, flamethrower-faced dragons actually existed in the Middle Ages? This kind of dragon?

Because seriously, I'm a fantasy fan, and even for ME that's really stretching things.

 

[Hank77]

The entirety of Job in the NRSV:

Job 39


1 Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you observe the calving of the deer?
2 Can you number the months that they fulfil,
and do you know the time when they give birth,
3 when they crouch to give birth to their offspring,
and are delivered of their young?
4 Their young ones become strong, they grow up in the open;
they go forth, and do not return to them.


5 ‘Who has let the wild ass go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift ass,
6 to which I have given the steppe for its home,
the salt land for its dwelling-place?
7 It scorns the tumult of the city;
it does not hear the shouts of the driver.
8 It ranges the mountains as its pasture,
and it searches after every green thing.


9 ‘Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will it spend the night at your crib?
10 Can you tie it in the furrow with ropes,
or will it harrow the valleys after you?
11 Will you depend on it because its strength is great,
and will you hand over your labour to it?
12 Do you have faith in it that it will return,
and bring your grain to your threshing-floor?*


13 ‘The ostrich’s wings flap wildly,
though its pinions lack plumage.*
14 For it leaves its eggs to the earth,
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
15 forgetting that a foot may crush them,
and that a wild animal may trample them.
16 It deals cruelly with its young, as if they were not its own;
though its labour should be in vain, yet it has no fear;
17 because God has made it forget wisdom,
and given it no share in understanding.
18 When it spreads its plumes aloft,*
it laughs at the horse and its rider.


19 ‘Do you give the horse its might?
Do you clothe its neck with mane?
20 Do you make it leap like the locust?
Its majestic snorting is terrible.
21 It paws* violently, exults mightily;
it goes out to meet the weapons.
22 It laughs at fear, and is not dismayed;
it does not turn back from the sword.
23 Upon it rattle the quiver,
the flashing spear, and the javelin.
24 With fierceness and rage it swallows the ground;
it cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
25 When the trumpet sounds, it says “Aha!”
From a distance it smells the battle,
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.


26 ‘Is it by your wisdom that the hawk soars,
and spreads its wings towards the south?
27 Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
and makes its nest on high?
28 It lives on the rock and makes its home
in the fastness of the rocky crag.
29 From there it spies the prey;
its eyes see it from far away.
30 Its young ones suck up blood;
and where the slain are, there it is.’

No mention of unicorns there so therefore I don't see what you're trying to get at with your lack of actual scientific evidence and this bible waving to prove it and then trying to jump to conclusions, like all heterodoxers, that cause those of us that don't stand on shoddy reasoning have a lack of faith. Sorry but come up with a new tactic, this one doesn't work.

An English translation is not necessarily correct when it comes to a translation of a Hebrew word that didn't exist in the Greek or Latin.
I like the YLT translation. Nobody is really sure what the animal was that the Hebrews called re'em, so Young didn't assume anything and just used the Hebrew word.

Job 39:9 Is a Reem willing to serve thee? Doth he lodge by thy crib?
Job 39:10 Dost thou bind a Reem in a furrow with his thick band? Doth he harrow valleys after thee?

I found this rather interesting though, NOT that it is the re'em.
Robinson goes on to say that a “somewhat more definite account of a similar animal is contained in the Transactions of the Zealand Academy of Sciences at Flushing (published 1792). The account was transmitted to the society in 1791, from the Cape of Good Hope, by Mr. Henry Cloete.


“This animal resembled a horse, and was of a light-gray color, with white stripes under the lower jaw. It had a single horn, directly in front, as long as one’s arm and at the base about as thick. Towards the middle the horn was somewhat flattened, but had a sharp point; it was not attached to the bone of the forehead, but fixed only in the skin.


“The head was like that of the horse, and the size also about the same. The hoofs were round, like those of a horse, but divided below, like those of oxen. This remarkable animal was shot between Table Mountain and Hippopotamus River, about sixteen days’ journey on horseback from Cambedo, which would be about a month’s journey in ox-wagons from Capetown.

Read more at Are there really unicorns in the King James Bible? - On the Front Lines of the Culture Wars

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The entirety of Job in the NRSV:

Job 39


1 Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you observe the calving of the deer?
2 Can you number the months that they fulfil,
and do you know the time when they give birth,
3 when they crouch to give birth to their offspring,
and are delivered of their young?
4 Their young ones become strong, they grow up in the open;
they go forth, and do not return to them.


5 ‘Who has let the wild ass go free?
Who has loosed the bonds of the swift ass,
6 to which I have given the steppe for its home,
the salt land for its dwelling-place?
7 It scorns the tumult of the city;
it does not hear the shouts of the driver.
8 It ranges the mountains as its pasture,
and it searches after every green thing.


9 ‘Is the wild ox willing to serve you?
Will it spend the night at your crib?
10 Can you tie it in the furrow with ropes,
or will it harrow the valleys after you?
11 Will you depend on it because its strength is great,
and will you hand over your labour to it?
12 Do you have faith in it that it will return,
and bring your grain to your threshing-floor?*


13 ‘The ostrich’s wings flap wildly,
though its pinions lack plumage.*
14 For it leaves its eggs to the earth,
and lets them be warmed on the ground,
15 forgetting that a foot may crush them,
and that a wild animal may trample them.
16 It deals cruelly with its young, as if they were not its own;
though its labour should be in vain, yet it has no fear;
17 because God has made it forget wisdom,
and given it no share in understanding.
18 When it spreads its plumes aloft,*
it laughs at the horse and its rider.


19 ‘Do you give the horse its might?
Do you clothe its neck with mane?
20 Do you make it leap like the locust?
Its majestic snorting is terrible.
21 It paws* violently, exults mightily;
it goes out to meet the weapons.
22 It laughs at fear, and is not dismayed;
it does not turn back from the sword.
23 Upon it rattle the quiver,
the flashing spear, and the javelin.
24 With fierceness and rage it swallows the ground;
it cannot stand still at the sound of the trumpet.
25 When the trumpet sounds, it says “Aha!”
From a distance it smells the battle,
the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.


26 ‘Is it by your wisdom that the hawk soars,
and spreads its wings towards the south?
27 Is it at your command that the eagle mounts up
and makes its nest on high?
28 It lives on the rock and makes its home
in the fastness of the rocky crag.
29 From there it spies the prey;
its eyes see it from far away.
30 Its young ones suck up blood;
and where the slain are, there it is.’

No mention of unicorns there so therefore I don't see what you're trying to get at with your lack of actual scientific evidence and this bible waving to prove it and then trying to jump to conclusions, like all heterodoxers, that cause those of us that don't stand on shoddy reasoning have a lack of faith. Sorry but come up with a new tactic, this one doesn't work.

The King James Bible says "unicorn" instead of "oxen" in Job 39. I trust the KJV over the NRSV. Why? Because most Modern Translations have got the stink of the devil within them. How can we know? Check Daniel 3, Isaiah 14, and Revelation 13 for starters.

For example: The NRSV says that fourth figure in the fire with Daniels three friends had, "the appearance of a god." (little "g") (Daniel 3:25). Other translations say that he was the son of the gods. The KJV got it right. It says that this was, "the Son of God." For Jesus was in the fire with them.

The NSRV says in Isaiah 14:12,
"How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn!." (Isaiah 14:12) (NSRV)

"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts." (2 Peter 1:19) (KJV).

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV) is talking about the fall of Lucifer, or the devil. Yet, the NRSV has the audacity to say that Jesus (Who is the Day Star who arises in our hearts according to 2 Peter 1:19) falls from heaven. It's sick.

Here is what Isaiah 14:12 says in the KJV.

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" (Isaiah 14:12) (KJV).

We know that the word "Lucifer" means light bearer. How fitting. Lucifer is described as wearing jewels in Ezekiel 28:13. Jewels or gemstones reflect or reflect light. In short, jewels hold light. They are like little light bearers. The New Testament says, "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." (2 Corinthians 11:14).

Then there is Revelation 13. Well, many Bible versions say that it is the dragon who is standing on the sea shore in Revelation. This is just evil and wrong.

See Parallel Version for Revelation 13:1 here.
NSRV just completely leaves out John standing on the sand by the sea.

But in many Modern Translations: Revelation 13:1 says The dragon stood on the shore of the sea. And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on its horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.

See, if you know anything about Bible language, standing on something means that you "own it"; And the devil wants to own you. In the King James, John is standing on the seashore. Yet in many Bible versions the dragon (i.e. the devil) is standing on the seashore.

Why is this a problem?

Let's look at...

Genesis 22:17

"That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the seashore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;"

Did you catch that? God says to Abraham that He will multiply his seed as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is upon the seashore where he will then possess the gate of his enemies (i.e. the devil and his kingdom). The apostle John who wrote Revelation was Jewish and he was the promised seed of Genesis 22 standing on the seashore in Revelation 13. It was not the dragon or the devil standing on the seashore.

For certain Modern Versions eliminate the part of the passage in Revelation 13:1 that says that John is standing on the seashore (When he refers to himself as "I").

Also, the devil tries to take out key points in important discussions within the Bible (Which can affect doctrine). For example: In Romans 7 Paul talks from the Jew's perspective in keeping the Old Testament Law (Which leads to problems), and he gives us the climax or heart of his message as a solution in Romans 8:1. Now, certain modern translations have eliminated "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Eliminating this passage destroys the whole thrust of Paul's argument. Walking in the Spirit is the key to being in Christ Jesus. You eliminate that and you destroy Paul's argument. Also, 1 John 5:7 is the only verse in the Bible that is the clearest and most concise teaching on the Godhead (i.e. the Trinity).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Big, flying, flamethrower-faced dragons actually existed in the Middle Ages? This kind of dragon?

Because seriously, I'm a fantasy fan, and even for ME that's really stretching things.

There is a description of a dragon as a part of God's creation in Job 41.

 

[majj27]

There is a description of a dragon as a part of God's creation in Job 41.

Yes, but Job didn't live in the Middle Ages.

 

[Winken]

It said in Revelations that a great red dragon, otherwise known as Satan will wait for the baby to come out of the woman, to devour it. So we know that God created all living things, but I'm not sure if dragons, dinasours, insects, flies are part of His creation.

Yeah. She lives next door........

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You fell for it...

You do know that the reason why these educated deceivers say Noah put dino on the ark is because they're not good enough at combatting the atheist powerhouse, it's a cop out to the argument of 'EVOLUTION.' Let me say this...
The baby version!? You actually believe that?

The Bible is not a book about Science.
It is a book about God and His miracles, and His love for you and me.

Now, as for the animals: The Bible says God called all the animals (See Genesis 6:19). The only way the really big ones would fit is if they were baby ones. It is the only way.

Dinosaurs were here before Adam and Eve and lived during what's called the pre-Adamite world.

There is no such thing. God created the Earth in six (24 hour) days. Before the six day creation: The Bible says waters existed over the face of the deep. The Bible mentions nothing of a pre-Adamic world. The geneology of Jesus Christ goes back to Adam and not some kind of pre-Adamic world. You are buying into the lie of Evolution still and trying to cram that into the Bible (when it does not fit).

They were not in the garden of Eden, and Noah didn't put any on the ark because there were no dinosaurs around, and no record of them being around. If they were around after Adam and Eve, and around during and after the flood, you would think that their enormous size, and the fear they would have instilled in people as they roamed the earth, would have been clearly documented in history by the many historians and the bible itself. Neither the historical or biblical record, document any creatures of such immensity have ever roamed the earth while man was upon it. Well the Creation Scientist have fabricated an answer for everything. They say dinosaurs are mentioned in the bible! They tell us that the "behemouth and the leviathan" were dinosaurs. The behemouth is likely a water ox, Hippo, or some other large creature. It's a pipe dream to even suggest they are dinosaurs.

If Noah would have put 'full size' dinosaurs on the ark, he would have needed 12 to 15 arks to accommodate them, the food, and the amount of manure he would have had to deal with. These scientist tell us that one ark would have been of sufficient size to accommodate all the animals of the planet to include dinosaurs. The flood of Noah wasn't a 'global' event. If the flood was worldwide like they say, how did Noah, or God, get these creature to the Ark if they had to come from thousands of miles away, or to cross oceans? How would Noah and his family fit so many creatures on ONE ark and still have the room to store the food and the dung? It's actually IMPOSSIBLE for that to have occurred!

The flood wasn't worldwide but limited to the area of the Middle East. The animals God brought to Noah were in the region of the Middle-East and NOT from the entire planet. The flood was regional. There's record of civilizations in China that were not disturbed from around that same time period indicating it wasn't worldwide.

There are global flood legends all over the world. The evidence for the global flood can be seen all over the globe. Ancient cities underneath the ocean. Seashells on the tops of the highest mountains, etc. But I am not really interested in debating something that is so basic. Please take no offense; But if you are not getting something basic in the Bible, it is something you should consider talking to God about, my friend. I say this not to wound you, but I say this in love. For your views here radically goes against what the Bible plainly says.

My trying to convince you of what the Bible plainly says is not going to work if it is something this basic. So it is best we agree to disagree and move on and just love each other in Christ, my friend.

Peace be unto you;
And may you please be well.

 

[Hank77]

As for the Leviathan (which is a dragon), that puppy is aquatic.

Have you seen this Lod mosaic that was found several years ago in Israel; a photo of it was my avatar for awhile. It is a very large floor mosaic.

These surround a larger octagonal space populated by ferocious wild animals – a lion and lioness, an elephant, a giraffe, a rhinoceros, a tiger, and a wild bull – with a mountainous landscape flanking a ketos, a mythical sea creature.

Likewise, the Jewish word for the sea monster in the Book of Jonah (1:17) is translated in the Septuagint as the Greek ketos. On the Arch of Titus in Rome, the creature appears on the base of the seven-branch menorah that was taken as part of the spoils from the temple after the sack of Jerusalem in AD70. It is also interesting to note that during the Jewish revol, Lod was again besieged and sacked by the Romans, commanded by the general Lusius Quietus, whose name, corrupted to Kitos, later gave the conflict the title the Kitos war. The appearance of a mythological ketos in the central panel of the Lod mosaic, flanked by a lion and lioness, and in the incongruous company of other real-life creatures, may therefore have had some significance and hidden meaning for Jews living in Lod during the third century. [emphasis mine]

The Lod mosaics – a carnival of animals

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes, but Job didn't live in the Middle Ages.

If a dragon existed during the time of Job according to Job 41, then why is it so hard to believe they continued to survive at a later time? You do realize that bears and other animals do hybernate, right?

 

[Targaryen]

Yeah. She lives next door........

the most believable post in the last little bit in this thread.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Have you seen this Lod mosaic that was found several years ago in Israel; a photo of it was my avatar for awhile. It is a very large floor mosaic.

These surround a larger octagonal space populated by ferocious wild animals – a lion and lioness, an elephant, a giraffe, a rhinoceros, a tiger, and a wild bull – with a mountainous landscape flanking a ketos, a mythical sea creature.

Likewise, the Jewish word for the sea monster in the Book of Jonah (1:17) is translated in the Septuagint as the Greek ketos. On the Arch of Titus in Rome, the creature appears on the base of the seven-branch menorah that was taken as part of the spoils from the temple after the sack of Jerusalem in AD70. It is also interesting to note that during the Jewish revol, Lod was again besieged and sacked by the Romans, commanded by the general Lusius Quietus, whose name, corrupted to Kitos, later gave the conflict the title the Kitos war. The appearance of a mythological ketos in the central panel of the Lod mosaic, flanked by a lion and lioness, and in the incongruous company of other real-life creatures, may therefore have had some significance and hidden meaning for Jews living in Lod during the third century. [emphasis mine]

The Lod mosaics – a carnival of animals

Lots of interesting stuff out there. Glory be to God for it all.

 

[1213]

Yet, we have a description of a dragon in Job 41. There are also references to dragons without reference to satan in the Bible, too. Then there are the many reported encounters of dragons from many cultures, as well. People just write off dragons as myth and legend because they cannot believe it is possible for such a creature to exist and they also were fed that this was mere fantasy from watching various movies and reading books, etc.

I read that and it seems to be speaking of Leviathan, which by description could be as well called dinosaur. I believe God created those and I agree that they are wrongly explained to be just myths.

 

[SBC]

I could not think of an animal (leviathan) with two heads. An octopus has eight arms. A millipede has many legs. I could not find evidence for fire breathing dragons. Stories were told that were not entirely true.

Actually animals did not "breath" fire.
However they do expel methane which is flammable.
And they do expel their breath, that depending on the air temperature, can look like smoke.
Stories told are by their observation revealed by their choice of descriptive words.

Job 41
[19] Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
[20] Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
[21] His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.

God Bless,
SBC