Did God create dragons?

ViaCrucis

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Oh, Modern PERIOD, not "modern times". That's a big difference.

Of course, as you say, not NEARLY big enough.

I figured we might as well be generous and include the entire modern period, not just limit it to the contemporary. It makes no difference, as it's false either way.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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majj27

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While it is possible that there are one horned horses that died out, unicorns can also simply be in reference to any one horned animal, too.

Here is a Science book on unicorns.

51_Ve_Dr_Hpz_HL_SX373_BO1_204_203_200.jpg


https://www.amazon.com/Natural-History-Unicorns-Chris-Lavers-ebook/dp/B002M41TTI/

That's... not exactly a scientific work. At least not in terms of "this is proof of unicorns being real things". It's an exploration of the development of the unicorn as a creature of myth and legend.
 
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ViaCrucis

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While it is possible that there are one horned horses that died out, unicorns can also simply be in reference to any one horned animal, too.

Here is a Science book on unicorns.

51_Ve_Dr_Hpz_HL_SX373_BO1_204_203_200.jpg


https://www.amazon.com/Natural-History-Unicorns-Chris-Lavers-ebook/dp/B002M41TTI/

No evidence exists for horns in equidae, however a relative of the equids, the rhinos, do often sport horns.

The word (re'em) which the translators of the KJV have rendered as "unicorn" (borrowed from the Vulgate's unicornis), does mean "horned", though the beast most think it is a reference to is the now extinct aurochs, the ancestor of domesticated cattle (in the same way that domesticated dogs are descended from wolves). It doesn't refer to a single-horned equid.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Unless the video contains actual evidence then the video is worthless.

-CryptoLutheran

Well, you will not know unless you watch it. Also, do you believe God was describing an actual creature to Job in Job 41?
 
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ViaCrucis

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Well, you will not know unless you watch it.

So if I watch the video and no evidence is provided, then I'll certainly have wasted that time. It would certainly go a long way if you could at least let me know that the video contains/presents evidence before I bother to watch it. But as a sign of good faith, sure I'll take a peek.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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After years of watching video "evidence" this is why I never watch videos any more.

Some people think the story of Jonah was just myth. Evidences are only as good as one's faith in the truth of God's Word. An atheist can reject evidence for the Bible because they do not believe it. There are Christians today who are skeptical in what the Bible says. They do not believe all of it.
 
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So if I watch the video and no evidence is provided, then I'll certainly have wasted that time. It would certainly go a long way if you could at least let me know that the video contains/presents evidence before I bother to watch it. But as a sign of good faith, sure I'll take a peek.

-CryptoLutheran

He makes some great points involving the different Greek Biblical manuscripts and the changing of some of them, to ancient civilizations all sharing the common story of dragons, an explanation of Job 41 (the Leviathan dragon like creature), and how even atheists have made the connection between dinosaurs and dragons (and it is not only creationists making such connections), etc. He is a Messianic Jew and he is very intelligent on the subject.
 
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It said in Revelations that a great red dragon, otherwise known as Satan will wait for the baby to come out of the woman, to devour it. So we know that God created all living things, but I'm not sure if dragons, dinasours, insects, flies are part of His creation.

I believe and understand that according to the Bible, everything that exists, is because of God’s creation.

If Satan is in another name dragon and is also fallen angel, I believe he was created by God.
 
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I believe and understand that according to the Bible, everything that exists, is because of God’s creation.

If Satan is in another name dragon and is also fallen angel, I believe he was created by God.

Yet, we have a description of a dragon in Job 41. There are also references to dragons without reference to satan in the Bible, too. Then there are the many reported encounters of dragons from many cultures, as well. People just write off dragons as myth and legend because they cannot believe it is possible for such a creature to exist and they also were fed that this was mere fantasy from watching various movies and reading books, etc.

Granted, if the Bible did not talk about dragons, I would of course be a lot more skeptical. But seeing the Bible talks about these as real creatures, I have to take it by faith that they existed based on accepting the Word of God is true as a whole. For if God created everything in six literal 24 hour days, then creating a creature that can breath fire is not all that hard for God to do by comparison.
 
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That's... not exactly a scientific work. At least not in terms of "this is proof of unicorns being real things". It's an exploration of the development of the unicorn as a creature of myth and legend.

There are many accounts of this creature by this author. That is the point he is making. Just as there are many global flood legends all over the world. What ties all these legends together is the Bible. If the BIble is all true in what it says, then we have to accept that some kind of one horned creature existed that the Bible refers to.
 
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No evidence exists for horns in equidae, however a relative of the equids, the rhinos, do often sport horns.

The word (re'em) which the translators of the KJV have rendered as "unicorn" (borrowed from the Vulgate's unicornis), does mean "horned", though the beast most think it is a reference to is the now extinct aurochs, the ancestor of domesticated cattle (in the same way that domesticated dogs are descended from wolves). It doesn't refer to a single-horned equid.

-CryptoLutheran

Words can change with the passage of time. The word "gay" used to mean happy but now it means something else. So unless we lived during the time period of when the Bible was actually written, we cannot know with 100% certainty that we know all their vocabulary with pin point accuracy like they did. There is a chance that one horned horses might have existed (as silly as that may sound to actually say that). Yes, they could be the legendary aurochs (i.e. cattles with one horns), but we honestly do not know. Currently, I am labeling the word "unicorn" in the BIble as being any one horned animal where it's appearance is a mystery. For the Bible does not really describe it physically in appearance.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If God compared the devil to a dragon, then that means God just compared our adversary to a make believe fictional creature. However, there is nothing more than the devil wants than for men to think he is fictional. Yet, God is not the author of confusion. We read in the story of Job about the Leviathan (Which is an exact description of what a dragon would be like). At the end of the book of Job: God is telling Job about his amazing creation and this dragon like creature is a part of that creation. People have a hard time with accepting things that are miraculous within God's Word so they just write it off as fiction or as a fable. But they are wrong. God's Word is true.

Check out this video here:


I'm at around the 6 minute mark, dude is talking about the Hebrew word תַּנִּין (tannin) meaning explicitly "dragon", this is problematic. The word here is used to describe sea beasts (as in Genesis 1:21, probably whales), it is also used to mean serpent, Moses' rod turned into a tannin, there is warning about the poison of tannin and asps. To bring in the LXX here is an obfuscation, the Greek of the LXX does translate tannin as drakon, from which we get the word "dragon", but drakon means "serpent"; again drakon is used to mean "serpent" in the LXX, consider Exodus 7:10,

"εἰσῆλθεν δὲ Μωυσῆς καὶ Ααρων ἐναντίον Φαραω καὶ τῶν θεραπόντων αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐποίησαν οὕτως καθάπερ ἐνετείλατο αὐτοῖς κύριος καὶ ἔρριψεν Ααρων τὴν ῥάβδον ἐναντίον Φαραω καὶ ἐναντίον τῶν θεραπόντων αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐγένετο δράκων"

Moses' rod became a drakon, a serpent.

As for the "jackal" use, tannin comes from tan, a desert creature that suckled its young (Lamentations 4:3) and which gave a mournful cry in the night (Job 30:28-29), which is recognized by ancient Jewish commentators as referring to the jackal. Serpents don't suckle their young or give off a mournful cry, jackals do. Though some commenters believe the intent is "sea beasts" aka whales.

Aaaand yeah, I'm not seeing any evidence whatsoever being presented in this video. Granted that I started to skip ahead a few seconds now and then because all I was seeing was conjecture, speculation, and baseless statements being made.

Is there a specific point in the video where there's evidence being presented and I'm missing it?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Words can change with the passage of time. The word "gay" used to mean happy but now it means something else. So unless we lived during the time period of when the Bible was actually written, we cannot know with 100% certainty that we know all their vocabulary with pin point accuracy like they did. There is a chance that one horned horses might have existed (as silly as that may sound to actually say that). Yes, they could be the legendary aurochs (i.e. cattles with one horns), but we honestly do not know. Currently, I am labeling the word "unicorn" in the BIble as being any one horned animal where it's appearance is a mystery. For the Bible does not really describe it physically in appearance.

The idea that the "unicorn" is a one-horned horse is predominantly modern. Medieval bestiaries and and classical fantastic works from antiquity often shown it as a more goat-like creature.

img4576.jpg

Or as the aurochs

indus-unicorn.jpg


What's changed is that the term "unicorn" means in the modern mind a one-horned horse. Not the other way around.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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The idea that the "unicorn" is a one-horned horse is predominantly modern. Medieval bestiaries and and classical fantastic works from antiquity often shown it as a more goat-like creature.

img4576.jpg

Or as the aurochs

indus-unicorn.jpg


What's changed is that the term "unicorn" means in the modern mind a one-horned horse. Not the other way around.

-CryptoLutheran

I believe it is possible that the word "unicorn" could be in reference to any one horned animal. But in the case of Job 39:9-12 it makes it sound like this creature may be more like some kind of bull or cattle of some kind (the auroch) because it is used for farming in these verses and it is said to have great strength.
 
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FireDragon76

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You been reading Harry Potter?

In China, dinosaur fossils are commonly called "dragon bones" (long gu). In the past they were also widely used in medicine, though now days cow bones are a common substitute.
 
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I'm at around the 6 minute mark, dude is talking about the Hebrew word תַּנִּין (tannin) meaning explicitly "dragon", this is problematic. The word here is used to describe sea beasts (as in Genesis 1:21, probably whales), it is also used to mean serpent, Moses' rod turned into a tannin, there is warning about the poison of tannin and asps. To bring in the LXX here is an obfuscation, the Greek of the LXX does translate tannin as drakon, from which we get the word "dragon", but drakon means "serpent"; again drakon is used to mean "serpent" in the LXX, consider Exodus 7:10,

"εἰσῆλθεν δὲ Μωυσῆς καὶ Ααρων ἐναντίον Φαραω καὶ τῶν θεραπόντων αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐποίησαν οὕτως καθάπερ ἐνετείλατο αὐτοῖς κύριος καὶ ἔρριψεν Ααρων τὴν ῥάβδον ἐναντίον Φαραω καὶ ἐναντίον τῶν θεραπόντων αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐγένετο δράκων"

Moses' rod became a drakon, a serpent.

As for the "jackal" use, tannin comes from tan, a desert creature that suckled its young (Lamentations 4:3) and which gave a mournful cry in the night (Job 30:28-29), which is recognized by ancient Jewish commentators as referring to the jackal. Serpents don't suckle their young or give off a mournful cry, jackals do. Though some commenters believe the intent is "sea beasts" aka whales.

Aaaand yeah, I'm not seeing any evidence whatsoever being presented in this video. Granted that I started to skip ahead a few seconds now and then because all I was seeing was conjecture, speculation, and baseless statements being made.

Is there a specific point in the video where there's evidence being presented and I'm missing it?

-CryptoLutheran

I disagree. It is not a jackal being described in Lamentations 4:3 and Job 30.
I believe the KJV and not the Modern Translations because many of the Modern Translations have placed the devil's name within them and watered down important doctrines and truths within various parts of the Bible. But that is okay. I was not really expecting you to be convinced. Job 41 describes a dragon. You either believe it or not.
 
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