Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

Erik Nelson

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I think that first Persia and then Islam largely suppressed Oriental Orthodox Churches.

And the conflict between Greeks & Italians predates even Julius Caesar. It appears to me to be a vicious cycle of Wrath fueled by Pride. Without taking sides, it remains factually true that the Greeks of Constantinople did sell 4,000 Italians as slaves to the Seljuk Turks after the "Massacre of the Latins" in 1182 AD (for which the sack of Constantinople in 1204 AD was viewed as revenge), implying some sort of vague financial ties.

Deception at work amongst humanity is more sophisticated than any few paragraphs can describe. But I do perceive that the Fall of Constantinople in 1453 AD was an event of special and particular Spiritual importance in human history. For example, the economic sanctions & embargo afterwards imposed upon Europe by the Ottoman Turks impelled the Age of Exploration, which still defines the modern world and its politics to this day.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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...I believe you live in an area with a priest shortage, and I'm sure that has an impact on his decision concerning what to do with the priest.

At some point, elevating a member of the laity to that role has got to be better than allowing a rogue priest to persist.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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LittleLambofJesus

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nonaeroterraqueous said:
At some point, elevating a member of the laity to that role has got to be better than allowing a rogue priest to persist.
Shhh...Thats Orthodoxy.

Forgive me...
Mum's the word..........
Thread split coming............
 
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Erik Nelson

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I understand, that Martin Luther was so "inspired" by the notion of "Salvation by Faith alone" that he sought to excise the Epistle of James, the brother of the Lord, from canon.

So, he had a really nice idea... which wasn't quite compatible with Scripture... so push comes to shove... and... James, the brother of the Lord, was apparently confused? If his epistle contained false doctrine, then was he a heretic (min'im) ?

And, if so, then as "birds of a feather flock together" and "judge a tree by its collective fruit", what does that say about Joseph, Mary, & Jesus ?
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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I understand, that Martin Luther was so "inspired" by the notion of "Salvation by Faith alone" that he sought to excise the Epistle of James, the brother of the Lord, from canon.

Okay. Never heard that one before. I'll have to search for more information on that notion, or do you have a source?

And, if so, then as "birds of a feather flock together" and "judge a tree by its collective fruit", what does that say about Joseph, Mary, & Jesus ?

It says nothing. We don't accept guilt by association. I thought we got over that one when they tried that accusation on Jesus.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Okay. Never heard that one before. I'll have to search for more information on that notion, or do you have a source?



It says nothing. We don't accept guilt by association. I thought we got over that one when they tried that accusation on Jesus.

Yes that analogy is useless. It's a stereotype. Someone could say that Hitler was German so all Germans are evil because birds of a feather flock together. People are responsible for their own actions and we shouldn't assume any group of people are bad people based on the actions of a single person in that group.
 
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Erik Nelson

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The Ottomans financed Luther and other Protestants from the 16th century AD on. The outright alliance between Lutheran Germany and the Ottomans in the 19th-20th centuries AD only corroborates the claim.

Instead of having to pay tithes to Rome (to defend Europe), they received rebates (effectively the sale price of southeastern Europe).

For 600 years, Serbians, Bulgarians, & Romanians have thought that Luther was a selfish, individualistic, treacherous, betraying, back-stabbing tr8r who took blood money plundered from "their" lands because he "wasn't their keeper". The words I was told once were "betrayer of the gateway to (all) Europe".

Not that anybody cares, but that's "what his next-door neighbors think of him", those who have "had to live next to him" so to speak.

But that's the kind of ill-will dividing Europe that the Sultans paid for. Divide et imperare par excellence.

EDIT: It would cost about 10 billion dollars to build St. Peter's Basilica today, enough to evoke Luther's comment about German gold flowing over the Alps to Rome to build it. However, during the same period, how much was spent defending Europe from the Ottoman empire?

In modern terms, wars cost trillions of dollars. If so, Luther was being "penny wise but pound foolish", focusing on "pennies on the dollar". And if so, prima facie, his principle opposition was to the defense of Europe, 100x more than the construction of one building in one city.

(Which construction, of building up Rome, I would interpret as a response to the Fall of Constantinople.)
 
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Erik Nelson

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Okay. Never heard that one before. I'll have to search for more information on that notion, or do you have a source?



It says nothing. We don't accept guilt by association. I thought we got over that one when they tried that accusation on Jesus.
Luther's canon - Wikipedia

Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (notably, he perceived them to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide), but this was not generally accepted among his followers. However, these books are ordered last in the German-language Luther Bible to this day.[5]

"If Luther's negative view of these books were based only upon the fact that their canonicity was disputed in early times, 2 Peter might have been included among them, because this epistle was doubted more than any other in ancient times."[1] However, the prefaces that Luther affixed to these four books makes it evident "that his low view of them was more due to his theological reservations than with any historical investigation of the canon."

Luther was so "inspired" by sola gratia, sola fide that he wanted to remove Scriptures which didn't agree with his "better ideas":

  • Epistle of James the Just, Bishop of Jerusalem, brother of the Lord
  • Epistle of Jude, brother of Jesus
  • Revelations, written by the hand of John "the beloved" Apostle (the only one to survive into the 2nd century AD and die a natural death)
  • Hebrews, written by Paul -- upon whose other Epistles, Luther based his sola gratia, sola fide... so I guess even Luther realized then that St. Paul "didn't bat 1.000" (?!)...
Perhaps someday history will be the judge?
 
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Bob Crowley

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Currently, I am attending a presbyterian church and have many bible conservative friends. I am pretty new to Christianity and when I ask about these, my friends tend to just brush it off as "because the pastor said..." or "Catholic is idolism..." kind of skewed judgement and opinions. So if you could please, just share what you think about my questions.... I have never studied or learned Catholic faith (if it is any different from Christianity I learned from my church), so please forgive my ignorance.

I'm a former Presbyterian like you, and I can tell you some of the things some Protestants say about Catholics and Catholicism is rubbish. To quote my old PROTESTANT Presbyterian pastor, "Protestants tell a lot of lies about Catholics and the Catholic Church", and "Protestants can be quite arrogant when it comes to the Catholic Church".

He also said about the current state of Protestantism, "When it comes to theology, Protestants couldn't agree how far to spit." And he was a Protestant pastor, and a very highly regarded one at that, at least in local church circles.

1. Catholics believe in Jesus as their savior and he is the son of the God. So Catholics do go to heaven as well, right? (My friend said in the Catholic faith, it said they have to do good things to be in Heaven, so they can't go to Heaven because Catholics don't believe in Jesus solely to go to heaven. Honestly, I didn't get what she meant.)

Your friend should read what the Catholic Church actually teaches. Works flow from Faith, and God expects us to carry out works. Read what Christ said about His being present in the "least of these my brothers" and how He will judge us on our practical response to their situation. What do they think the parable of Dives and Lazarus was all about?

Yes, Catholics do go to heaven, although we believe most of us will spend some time in Purgatory, since we believe that nobody gets into heaven until he or she is literally perfect. I could quote my old Protestant pastor again about his doubts on whether Protestants get to heaven, but I'll keep it friendly.

2. If i missed my church's sermon on Sunday morning, can I go to a Catholic mass? (I know going to a sermon is not 100% necessary action to take, but I like to have something in my weekend to keep my spirit up for the upcoming week.) As a non-Catholic, but Christian, can I attend the mass?

Anyone can attend a Catholic mass, provided they don't make a nuisance of themselves, and respect the proceedings, even if they don't fully understand or agree with them.

3. During the Catholic mass, when they give out the bread and wine part (I am sorry, I don't know what it is called...My church doesn't do it a lot..may be on Christmas only.). am I allowed to join because I was baptized as a Christian? Or is it solely for Catholic?

We call the entire process the Eucharist. Communion is the actual partaking of the bread and wine, which we believe becomes the body and blood of Christ, when the priest asks the Holy Spirit to come upon them. The Catholic Church celebrates the Eucharist daily, whereas Protestant Churches vary a lot in their teaching. My Presbyterian Church when I was a member only celebrated Communion every three months.

And no, you can't partake of the Catholic Communion, as you don't formally believe the bread and wine is the literal body and blood of Christ. It's also a reminder the body of Christ is divided ie. the Church is divided.

You can however find the line heading towards the priest, and on approaching him, cross your arms over your chest, and he will give you a blessing.

4. My church said I don't need to pray to my angel or saints or anyone except Jesus. Then what is the purpose of angels and saints? Even if the saints are not 'real' in protestant faith, isn't angel something the God said we all have? Should we just...ignore them?

We ask them to pray or intercede for us. What do some of these Protestants think the saints and angels are doing up there? Nothing?

The "Hail Mary" for example is made of 3 parts -

1. "Hail, Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee" - equivalent to Gabriel's greeting to Mary at the annunciation.
2. "Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of they womb, Jesus" - more or less her cousin Elizabeth's greeting when Mary visited her.
3. "Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death" - nothing more than a request for her prayer on our behalf. Ever asked your friends to pray for you?

Mary, the saints and angels are doing something up there.

5. What is the role of Mary in Catholic church? I know Catholics don't' worship her, but honor her because she was the mother of Jesus. Then why not honor Joseph, the father of Jesus, in the same respect? Why is the virgin birth so important? Isn't Nazareth's revival more amazing miracle? (Again, I am new to the faith, this question is out from my ignorance. Not trying ot compare miracles or anything like that)

Joseph is regarded as a saint, but he's hardly mentioned in the Gospels. I've got my own opinion on that. But when Christ said to His disciple as he looked down from the cross, "Behold, your mother!" and to His mother, "Behold, your son!", the disciple "whom He loved" was standing in as proxy for "all disciples whom He loved." In effect, Christ was appointing His mother as our spiritual mother. He then took her "into his home". And that's Christ expects us to do with His Mother - take her into our home, as our spiritual mother.

She's also the queen of heaven viz. Revelation 12:1 NIV
"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head."

I suggest you read up on the miracle of Fatima in 1917, when Mary appeared to 3 children, accompanied by a dancing sun visible to 70,000 witnesses, which people could stare at for 10 minutes without even hurting their eyes, and in which ground saturated by hours of rain instantly dried, which normally would have required the same energy as a 10 megaton nuclear bomb.

6. Does Catholic really teach that non-believers who do good things also go to heaven?

We teach that we don't know what their fate is, and we're not their judges. God is.

What arrangements He's made for people who have had no chance to hear about Christ, or who do so in severely restricted circumstances, is up to Him. We don't know.

Put it this way, if you or your Protestant (or for that matter Catholic) friends had been born in a Moslem country, you and they would almost certainly be Moslem. Is God just going to write them all off because they've had very little chance to hear about Christ, and what they have heard has been distorted? I fail to see how we could justify "God is love" in that case.

7. I don't see a lot of Catholic evangelism movement as much as Protestant churches do. Is there reason for it or Catholics do have those movements but it is just not well known?

Yes, evangelism is one thing we don't do very well. We've got a process here called the New Evangelism, but I don't think it's advancing very fast. Protestants do tend to evangelise more. We've left too much up to the priests and religious orders.

Having said that, I think the religious orders underpin the church, as their prayers arise continually before God.

If they ever disappear, the whole Church, Catholic and Protestant, will be in big trouble.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The Ottomans financed Luther and other Protestants from the 16th century AD on. The outright alliance between Lutheran Germany and the Ottomans in the 19th-20th centuries AD only corroborates the claim.

I'm not sure you understand what corroborates means.

If I tell you that lizard people rule the world and that Jurrasic Park corroborates this claim, you would rightly point out that's not how corroboration works and that it's entirely non-sequitur.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BNR32FAN

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Luther's canon - Wikipedia

Luther made an attempt to remove the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon (notably, he perceived them to go against certain Protestant doctrines such as sola gratia and sola fide), but this was not generally accepted among his followers. However, these books are ordered last in the German-language Luther Bible to this day.[5]

"If Luther's negative view of these books were based only upon the fact that their canonicity was disputed in early times, 2 Peter might have been included among them, because this epistle was doubted more than any other in ancient times."[1] However, the prefaces that Luther affixed to these four books makes it evident "that his low view of them was more due to his theological reservations than with any historical investigation of the canon."

Luther was so "inspired" by sola gratia, sola fide that he wanted to remove Scriptures which didn't agree with his "better ideas":

  • Epistle of James the Just, Bishop of Jerusalem, brother of the Lord
  • Epistle of Jude, brother of Jesus
  • Revelations, written by the hand of John "the beloved" Apostle (the only one to survive into the 2nd century AD and die a natural death)
  • Hebrews, written by Paul -- upon whose other Epistles, Luther based his sola gratia, sola fide... so I guess even Luther realized then that St. Paul "didn't bat 1.000" (?!)...
Perhaps someday history will be the judge?

This is exactly why not all noncatholic Christians should be referred to as Protestants. Most don't care what Martin Luther did or taught. My beliefs are based on the bible not Martin Luther but according to catholics I'm considered a Protestant. The term Protestant has become a stereotypical term used to discredit all noncatholic Christians by insinuating that they all have the same beliefs as Martin Luther. If someone asks me I say I'm a Christian. If they ask what denomination I say nondenominational because I'm only concerned with what the bible teaches. I see too many problems with most main stream denominations teachings. Some say you have to be baptized a certain way or you must speak in tongues or your not saved. I say RUBBISH!! John baptized with water but Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit. Water and a priest or pastor aren't even necessary to be baptized by Jesus. You can baptize someone with water all you want but if the person isn't baptized in spirit it's just a bath.
 
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Rick Otto

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QUOTE="HRDJ, post: 71620235, member: 400433"]HI - I am not posting this to start any kind of fight. I am just really really curious and confused.
Currently, I am attending a presbyterian church and have many bible conservative friends. I am pretty new to Christianity and when I ask aboutt these, my friends tend to just brush it 6off as "because the pastor said..." or "Catholic is idolism..." kind of skewed judgement and opinions. So if you could please, just share what you think about my questions.... I have never studied or learned Catholic faith (if it is any different from Christianity I learned from my church), so please forgive my ignorance.

1. Catholics believe in Jesus as their savior and he is the son of the God. So Catholics do go to heaven as well, right? (My friend said in the Catholic faith, it said they have to do good things to be in Heaven, so they can't go to Heaven because Catholics don't believe in Jesus solely to go to heaven. Honestly, I didn't get what she meant.)
Catholics like Protestants, typically don't conform completely to their category. Mis-belief isn't always un-belief. Salvation is mercy based, not merit based.
2. If i missed my church's sermon on Sunday morning, can I go to a Catholic mass? (I know going to a sermon is not 100% necessary action to take, but I like to have something in my weekend to keep my spirit up for the upcoming week.) As a non-Catholic, but Christian, can I attend the mass?
Whose permission do you really need?
Is your relationship with your local church more important than your relationship with God?
(Beware "Churchianity".)

3. During the Catholic mass, when they give out the bread and wine part (I am sorry, I don't know what it is called...My church doesn't do it a lot..may be on Christmas only.). am I allowed to join because I was baptized as a Christian? Or is it solely for Catholic?
If I'm not mistaken, Catholics won't even share the Eucharist (communion) with each other since 1054.
4. My church said I don't need to pray to my angel or saints or anyone except Jesus. Then what is the purpose of angels and saints? Even if the saints are not 'real' in protestant faith, isn't angel something the God said we all have? Should we just...ignore them?
Angels and saints have a multitude of purposes, but what makes you think they are going to help you if God won't? If you believe you have His ear, what business do you have with the others?
5. What is the role of Mary in Catholic church? I know Catholics don't' worship her, but honor her because she was the mother of Jesus. Then why not honor Joseph, the father of Jesus, in the same respect? Why is the virgin birth so important? Isn't Nazareth's revival more amazing miracle? (Again, I am new to the faith, this question is out from my ignorance. Not trying ot compare miracles or anything like that)
Definitely get a copy of "Papal Sin - Structures of Deceit" by Catholic author and university professor Garry Wills. He devotes a whole chapter to it. I still haven't read his book "Why I'm Still Catholic".
6. Does Catholic really teach that non-believers who do good things also go to heaven?
Arguable. They double-speak about having a works or merit based salvation (soteriology), in my opinion.
7. I don't see a lot of Catholic evangelism movement as much as Protestant churches do. Is there reason for it or Catholics do have those movements but it is just not well known? I
Evangelism is hard to control, and they are big on control. The impulse gets channeled into works... again, in my opinion. A lot of Catholics here are hostile to me. I was raised Roman Catholic and knew in 1st grade catechism I was being bamboozled. By fourth grade when they tried to indoctrinate me with transubstantiation, I figured out I would have to keep my head down until I was old enough to walk away.

I have read the bible cover to cover only seven times, so I'm no expert.
 
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Rick Otto

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They seem to think that Martin Luther was our Pope. They also seem to think that we consider our denominations each as the "One True Church." They've certainly got their paradigm.

Yes, I find Catholic stereotypes of Protestants to be amazingly simplistic and quite common. OTOH, there are some Protestants who also simplistically stereotype Catholics, but I have not found them to be nearly as ubiquitous as their Catholic counterparts. Perhaps that is because I was raised as a religious minority in a very Catholic city.
 
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Rick Otto

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They seem to think that Martin Luther was our Pope. They also seem to think that we consider our denominations each as the "One True Church." They've certainly got their paradigm.
Some of us need permission so badly, we create elites to dole it out.
 
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