Afterlife Alternatives

Peter1000

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It depends on your belief system, everyone has their own opinion, as does religion in general.
Regardless of your belief system, something does happen.

Either you go into oblivion and are no more, or you continue to live. If you continue to live what happens? It does not depend on your belief system. If the LDS are right, then that scenerio will take place. If X is right, that scenerio will take place. Everyone cannot be right.

If you believe that you sleep until the resurrection that is one thing. If you believe your spirit leaves the flesh and bone body and is transformed into a spirit world and continues to live and learn, awaiting the day that the spirit is reunited with the flesh and bone body and is resurrected new and perfect, that is another. There are many other scenerios.

Who is right, they all cannot be right, depending on your belief system. The fact is, somebodies belieif system is wrong. Will that take them down a path that will restrict their progression in the life hereafter?
 
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Peter1000

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There is a very monotheistic conventional view of death and after life associated with modern monotheism, versus Old Testamentary views.

A close resemblance of after life concerning Etana who is equated with Nimrod in 3 of the monotheistic themed religions.

In the Sumer Kings list Etana is known as "the shepherd, who ascended to heaven and consolidated all the foreign countries".

In Biblical literature we see a consolidation of countrie as Nimrod becomes proverbial as a mighty hunter. His "kingdom" is comprised of Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Sinar, otherwise known as the land of Nimrod (Gen. x. 8-10; I Chron. i. 10; Micah v. 5 [A. V. 6]).

We also see him in Rabbinic literature as a prototype of a rebellious people, his name being interpreted as "he who made all the people rebellious against God" (Pes. 94b; comp. Targ. of pseudo-Jonathan and Targ. Yer. to Gen. x. 9).

In Islamic literature see the Koran (xxi. 68-69). When Nimrod saw Abraham come unharmed from the furnace, he said to him: "Thou hast a powerful God; I wish to offer Him hospitality." Abraham told him that his God needed nobody's hospitality. Nevertheless Nimrod ordered thousands of horned and small cattle brought, and fowl and fish, and sacrificed them all to God; but God did not accept them. Humiliated, Nimrod shut himself in his palace and allowed no one to approach him.

While in another legene Nimrod assembled his ministers and informed them of his intention to ascend into the heavens and strike down Abraham's God. His ministers having told him that it would be difficult to accomplish such a journey, the heavens being very high, Nimrod conceived the idea of building a high tower, by means of which he might accomplish his purpose (comp. Sanh. 109a).

So we have differing views of Etana in later myths whether it reflect Judaic, Christian, Islamic or other views we see an adoption of the Etana character as Nimrod into differing cultures.

The concept of death for Nimrod is that he will ascend into the Heavens and strike down Abraham's God, yet we only see in Sumer Etana as the good shepherd (one of them as there are varying saviors) yet he does ascend into Heaven, we see a much later adaptation of hell in the New Testament, no longer is anyone allowed to ascend into heaven, there is requirement for entering heaven, some requirements are faith based, while other faith and works based. I think throughout the ages, the concept of "Heaven" changes, but I understand heaven as a firmament.

Even the etymology of the firmament is from Old French firmament or directly from Latin firmamentum "firmament," literally "a support, a strengthening," from firmus "strong, steadfast, enduring". Used in Late Latin in the Vulgate to translate Greek stereoma "firm or solid structure," which translated Hebrew raqia, a word used of both the vault of the sky and the floor of the earth in the Old Testament, probably literally "expanse," from raqa "to spread out," but in Syriac meaning "to make firm or solid," hence the erroneous translation. Related: Firmamental.
Moses did not read the story of Etana and incorporate him into the OT. If anything, after the downfall of Babel and the confounding of the languages, different groups having the same language gave different names for Nimrod, he was a real and powerful person.

Moses was shown Nimrod by vision as he had been shown the creation and Adam and the prophets that followed Adam. These were shown in vision to Moses directly from God.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Moses did not read the story of Etana and incorporate him into the OT. If anything, after the downfall of Babel and the confounding of the languages, different groups having the same language gave different names for Nimrod, he was a real and powerful person.

Moses was shown Nimrod by vision as he had been shown the creation and Adam and the prophets that followed Adam. These were shown in vision to Moses directly from God.

That is where an issue occurs at, whether anyone one religious group is right or whether any one religious group is wrong. My statement of what happens after death is based on your belief and is very relevant to your belief. To clarify if you believe in reincarnation this is your belief, if you believe in heaven or hell this is your belief, either way someone will be wrong and someone will be right. No one knows what happens after death at all; hence it is based on your belief system.


As far as restricting what happens in the afterlife, and the progression in the afterlife, once again goes back to either your belief is right or someone else's belief is right, hence making your belief wrong. So it really doesn't matter what you believe versus what someone else believes, because there is no sure way to tell who is right and who is wrong. That was my point the entire time, regardless of what tradition you follow or book you read, the best possible guess is going to be based on your religious or ideological beliefs. No one can prove there is an ultimate heaven, hell, purgatory, reincarnation and so on, because differing ideas do not equal the same outcome per the belief, hence why humans to this day are still trying to figure out what happens after death.


St. Moses pens the Deuteronical texts about 1700 BC, most scholars would agree. The issue is whether or not Nimrod is shown as Etana, Moses would have written those stories which are reflected in earlier cultures. Such as when Abraham came from Ur, and left to Canaan. But, per what I posted earlier we see Nimrod from differing aspects from each religion such as Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, yet we see Nimrod with characteristics of Etana. Etana is a Sumerian name, while Nimrod is a Common Stock West Semitic name, St Moses is a Common Stock West Semitic name as well and not a Sumerian name, hence the writing of Etana shown as Nimrod.


Also, St Moses would only have to understand the language that is Semitic based and not Sumer based, so I wouldn't expect that Moses "knew of Etana" in that fashion, but he would know of characteristics, the same as Etana.


Concerning the tower of Babel and its languages being split, there is in Sumer a much older Cuneiform of languages being divided by Enki in Sumer literature. Also, the Babel tower is falsely identified with Ziggurats, so in Southern Mesopotamia there are about 30 of these temples (Ziggurats) from Mari to Tell-Brak and from Ur to Eridu in the south, and so on.


The Hebrew's would have used the term migdal in a military setting and less of a term for a Ziggurat. So it is most likely that the Israelite's would have not known what these Ziggurats’s were to begin with. The description of the tower of Babel occurs in Babylon, which is in Southern Mesopotamia and where Ziggurat's would lay. So it is less likely that the Israelite's were familiar with any story of a tower of Babel and its fall. But, not foreign to Moses who could easily compare a Ziggurat to a Pyramid, though the Egyptian culture is not inspired by Sumerian culture at all, yet by the time Moses is in Egypt there is Southern Mesopotamian oratory legends, stories and so on that abound.


The claim of divine inspiration to Moses makes sense, since Moses appears in the NT as Israel's lawgiver (Matt 8:4: 19:7.8; 23:2; Mark 7: 10: 10:3.4; 2:9: Luke 2:22; John 7: 19.22.23; 8:5; Acts 6: 1J. 4; 13:39) he would have to claim divine inspiration. Hence he would be truly considered an Yahwehistic and dabbled in Yahwehistic occultism.
 
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Peter1000

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ShamashUruk said:
The claim of divine inspiration to Moses makes sense, since Moses appears in the NT as Israel's lawgiver (Matt 8:4: 19:7.8; 23:2; Mark 7: 10: 10:3.4; 2:9: Luke 2:22; John 7: 19.22.23; 8:5; Acts 6: 1J. 4; 13:39) he would have to claim divine inspiration. Hence he would be truly considered an Yahwehistic and dabbled in Yahwehistic occultism.

Moses received the information in the 5 books of Moses not by inspiriation, but by divine intervention. Face to face contact and discussion and instructions about the creation and the law. God wanted to be known, and face to face contact with Moses and the display of Godly power to the Israelites showed that He really existed and He was their God and they were His people.

No reading ancient anything. Simple face to face instructions directly from God. Read it in Genesis and Exodus, it is fascinating.[/QUOTE]
 
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ShamashUruk

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ShamashUruk said:


Moses received the information in the 5 books of Moses not by inspiriation, but by divine intervention. Face to face contact and discussion and instructions about the creation and the law. God wanted to be known, and face to face contact with Moses and the display of Godly power to the Israelites showed that He really existed and He was their God and they were His people.

No reading ancient anything. Simple face to face instructions directly from God. Read it in Genesis and Exodus, it is fascinating.
[/QUOTE]

There is some hot debate as to whether St. Moses actually penned Genesis, but an exegesis of Eridu Genesis provides that even the name Genesis in the Old Testament is derived therefrom. So it is not likely that St Moses was divinely inspired directly, but through legends and epics. As the books of Genesis tells of beginning that has already occurred in early polytheistic cultures and that the laws found in Exodus were already enforced by Hammurabi and even older law codes such as the code of Ur-Nammu.

A quick look at law in Exodus, we find similarly with the much older version through Hammurabi, and dating to Ur-Nammu, hence St Moses would be capable of reconstructing such writs.
 
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Peter1000

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There is some hot debate as to whether St. Moses actually penned Genesis, but an exegesis of Eridu Genesis provides that even the name Genesis in the Old Testament is derived therefrom. So it is not likely that St Moses was divinely inspired directly, but through legends and epics. As the books of Genesis tells of beginning that has already occurred in early polytheistic cultures and that the laws found in Exodus were already enforced by Hammurabi and even older law codes such as the code of Ur-Nammu.

A quick look at law in Exodus, we find similarly with the much older version through Hammurabi, and dating to Ur-Nammu, hence St Moses would be capable of reconstructing such writs.
[/QUOTE]
So what if they are older, nobody could be older than Noah, and especially not older than Adam.
So God being God, these other cultures got their laws from Adam and Noah. They altered them down through the years to fit their culture. That is why they are similar to Moses, but surely not the same, but in ways similar. Good laws are good laws. Even men can have some good laws.

But don't give up on the fact that Moses had face to face contact with God Himself. Could he have learned something from the creator, up and above what the epic legends could teach him? The answer is obvious.
 
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ShamashUruk

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So what if they are older, nobody could be older than Noah, and especially not older than Adam.
So God being God, these other cultures got their laws from Adam and Noah. They altered them down through the years to fit their culture. That is why they are similar to Moses, but surely not the same, but in ways similar. Good laws are good laws. Even men can have some good laws.

But don't give up on the fact that Moses had face to face contact with God Himself. Could he have learned something from the creator, up and above what the epic legends could teach him? The answer is obvious.[/QUOTE]

That statement is conflicting, saying it doesn't matter if the stories and epics are older. Older only indicates the stories are previous to the much later versions. Noah is a Semitic name, not Sumer, Sumer language is much older than Semitic language. The laws are reconstructs, the standards of Biblical law is diminished in some ways and changed in other ways.
 
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Peter1000

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ShanashUruk,
Adamic language is older that Sumer. Sumer is older than Semitic. The dinasaurs are older than Adam and Sumer. It doesn't matter because Moses didn't research the Sumer and Babylonian cultural documents, or the dinasaur footprints to come up with the creation story. So it doesn't matter who is older.

Moses received his creation story from the source, God, face to face. You don't believe this, and that doesn't matter, it is what I believe and it has as much verasity as your story as to how Moses came up with the creation story. So I think we have had enough of our beliefs on this subject. If you wish to repond, do so, but this is my last response to you on this thread. Thanks for the discussion, it was interesting for a while.
 
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ShamashUruk

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ShanashUruk,
Adamic language is older that Sumer. Sumer is older than Semitic. The dinasaurs are older than Adam and Sumer. It doesn't matter because Moses didn't research the Sumer and Babylonian cultural documents, or the dinasaur footprints to come up with the creation story. So it doesn't matter who is older.

Moses received his creation story from the source, God, face to face. You don't believe this, and that doesn't matter, it is what I believe and it has as much verasity as your story as to how Moses came up with the creation story. So I think we have had enough of our beliefs on this subject. If you wish to repond, do so, but this is my last response to you on this thread. Thanks for the discussion, it was interesting for a while.

You have a few issues with stating "Adamic" language, first off the Bible is transliterated from Hebraic that is based in Semitic tongue. So that is the very first issue, the second issue is that it is solely a Mormon doctrine and is not recognized in any formal linguistics setting. Also, you have the fact that culturally in the Hebrew language if you look into the Kabbalah you will see that the language they use is made to define a divine language (trees and branches), however since Hebrew is not Pre Sumer we have an issue. Also, there is no evidence of such an "Adamic" language spoken.

St. Moses is raised in Egypt, hence we would have had been educated in order to write books, and would have learned of shared epics, legends, and so on throughout his life in being raised. If you know anything about the Egyptians they were as mystical as their enemies the Babylonian's, but those were neighboring cultures and between them hence they shared customary and societal similarities, which would have had impact on the Ugaritic as well the ancient Israelite's.
 
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Peter1000

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You have a few issues with stating "Adamic" language, first off the Bible is transliterated from Hebraic that is based in Semitic tongue. So that is the very first issue, the second issue is that it is solely a Mormon doctrine and is not recognized in any formal linguistics setting. Also, you have the fact that culturally in the Hebrew language if you look into the Kabbalah you will see that the language they use is made to define a divine language (trees and branches), however since Hebrew is not Pre Sumer we have an issue. Also, there is no evidence of such an "Adamic" language spoken.

St. Moses is raised in Egypt, hence we would have had been educated in order to write books, and would have learned of shared epics, legends, and so on throughout his life in being raised. If you know anything about the Egyptians they were as mystical as their enemies the Babylonian's, but those were neighboring cultures and between them hence they shared customary and societal similarities, which would have had impact on the Ugaritic as well the ancient Israelite's.
Moses was educated, that is for sure. Face to face discussions with the Creator trumps Ph.D in epic legends.

The epic legends may have similar features to Moses's creation story, but not the depth of detail that Moses received from his education with the God that actually did the creating.

Which would you choose, a lifetime of study in the epic legends, or 1 hour with the God that created everything. Let me know.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Moses was educated, that is for sure. Face to face discussions with the Creator trumps Ph.D in epic legends.

The epic legends may have similar features to Moses's creation story, but not the depth of detail that Moses received from his education with the God that actually did the creating.

Which would you choose, a lifetime of study in the epic legends, or 1 hour with the God that created everything. Let me know.

Yes I am aware of the claim of sectarian monotheist about St. Moses, thought there is a lot more obscurity surrounding the figure of St. Moses than there is clarity.

So it's not likely that St. Moses had any conversation with any "God" figure, but that he was influenced by polytheistic Egypt and legends, epics, from older cultures where Egypt had engaged with.

We can look in the Bible Moses and see he is the human mediator of revelation par excellence. His name occurs 765 times in the OT (especially in Exodus and 80 times in the NT (more frequently than the name of any other OT person, especially in reference to Moses as lawgiver and author of the Pentateuch) and is borne by no other biblical figure. The name moseh is explained in Exod 2: 10 by means of a wordplay with the root msh, 'to draw': "I drew him out of the water". The name also contains an allusion to the destiny of its bearer: 'one that draws out, viz. his people from the waters of the sea and the bondage of Egypt' (Exod 12-15). Josephus (Am. 2:228; Contra Apionem 1:286) and Philo of Alexandria (Vita Mosis 1 17) explained the name with the aid of Egyptian/Coptic: 'the (one) rescued from the water'. This explanation forms the basis for the
Greek version of the name Mwvonc mo/moll "water" + eses "saved".

The conception which is currently universally accepted is that the name should be explained with the aid of the Egyptian word "msj" "produce", "bring forth", and that it is an abbreviated form of a theophoric name (e.g. Ptah-mose, "Ptah has been born/has engendered", cf. GRIFFITHS 1953:225-23). Side note: anytime you see the word engendered it generally has to do with Sumerian creation epics. However, as appears from Matt 17: 13 par. and Rev 11:3-12 Moses was considered to have been transferred like -.Elijah to heavenly existence, at least according to some Jewish and Christian circles. According]y his return could be expected in divinatory folklore.

In Rabbinic literature various views are found with regard to the agent of Moses' burial. According to a current interpretation Moses was buried by the LORD. This view is also attested in for instance. Pseudo-Philo and in Memar Marqah V § 4. According to another interpretation Moses has to be considered the agent of his own burial. In the rabbinic elucidation of Moses' burial, angels often
play a role as supernumeraries (e.g. Tg. Ps. J.: MidrR. Deut. 11:10).

Outside rabbinic literature the view is attested that Moses was buried by an angel (Michael) or a number of angels (cf. the usc of the plural "they buried him" in the LXX-version of Deut 34:6 and in Tg. Neof and in some MSS of the Samaritan Pentateuch).

Sometimes this depiction of the event is connected with a report of the dispute between Michael and the Angel of Death/the -'Devil about Moses' body (cf. Jude 9). The concept of (an) angel(s) as the agent(s) of Moses' burial is found in Christian literature (Houtman 1978:76-77).

In short the epics of Moses are told from extrabiblical sources and are conflicting, even by Egyptian standards as St. Moses is raised in Egypt. So it is most likely that the Biblical tale is fashioned by monotheistic cult influence and is not a true representation of the figure St. Moses.

Also, it is most likely that St. Moses engaged in witchcraft, as the concepts of parting the red sea relate to his name as "water". Therefore there is no conclusive evidence that St. Moses actually spoke with a Godly deity.
 
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Peter1000

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Yes I am aware of the claim of sectarian monotheist about St. Moses, thought there is a lot more obscurity surrounding the figure of St. Moses than there is clarity.

So it's not likely that St. Moses had any conversation with any "God" figure, but that he was influenced by polytheistic Egypt and legends, epics, from older cultures where Egypt had engaged with.

We can look in the Bible Moses and see he is the human mediator of revelation par excellence. His name occurs 765 times in the OT (especially in Exodus and 80 times in the NT (more frequently than the name of any other OT person, especially in reference to Moses as lawgiver and author of the Pentateuch) and is borne by no other biblical figure. The name moseh is explained in Exod 2: 10 by means of a wordplay with the root msh, 'to draw': "I drew him out of the water". The name also contains an allusion to the destiny of its bearer: 'one that draws out, viz. his people from the waters of the sea and the bondage of Egypt' (Exod 12-15). Josephus (Am. 2:228; Contra Apionem 1:286) and Philo of Alexandria (Vita Mosis 1 17) explained the name with the aid of Egyptian/Coptic: 'the (one) rescued from the water'. This explanation forms the basis for the
Greek version of the name Mwvonc mo/moll "water" + eses "saved".

The conception which is currently universally accepted is that the name should be explained with the aid of the Egyptian word "msj" "produce", "bring forth", and that it is an abbreviated form of a theophoric name (e.g. Ptah-mose, "Ptah has been born/has engendered", cf. GRIFFITHS 1953:225-23). Side note: anytime you see the word engendered it generally has to do with Sumerian creation epics. However, as appears from Matt 17: 13 par. and Rev 11:3-12 Moses was considered to have been transferred like -.Elijah to heavenly existence, at least according to some Jewish and Christian circles. According]y his return could be expected in divinatory folklore.

In Rabbinic literature various views are found with regard to the agent of Moses' burial. According to a current interpretation Moses was buried by the LORD. This view is also attested in for instance. Pseudo-Philo and in Memar Marqah V § 4. According to another interpretation Moses has to be considered the agent of his own burial. In the rabbinic elucidation of Moses' burial, angels often
play a role as supernumeraries (e.g. Tg. Ps. J.: MidrR. Deut. 11:10).

Outside rabbinic literature the view is attested that Moses was buried by an angel (Michael) or a number of angels (cf. the usc of the plural "they buried him" in the LXX-version of Deut 34:6 and in Tg. Neof and in some MSS of the Samaritan Pentateuch).

Sometimes this depiction of the event is connected with a report of the dispute between Michael and the Angel of Death/the -'Devil about Moses' body (cf. Jude 9). The concept of (an) angel(s) as the agent(s) of Moses' burial is found in Christian literature (Houtman 1978:76-77).

In short the epics of Moses are told from extrabiblical sources and are conflicting, even by Egyptian standards as St. Moses is raised in Egypt. So it is most likely that the Biblical tale is fashioned by monotheistic cult influence and is not a true representation of the figure St. Moses.

Also, it is most likely that St. Moses engaged in witchcraft, as the concepts of parting the red sea relate to his name as "water". Therefore there is no conclusive evidence that St. Moses actually spoke with a Godly deity.

Also, it is most likely that St. Moses engaged in witchcraft, as the concepts of parting the red sea relate to his name as "water". Therefore there is no conclusive evidence that St. Moses actually spoke with a Godly deity.

I am sure that Moses used 'witchcraft' to part the Red Sea and 2,000,000 people passed from Egypt to the other side, and then drown 15,000 men in chariots???

There is no conclusive evidence except that the bible uses the very words,
'face to face'. I believe Moses, I don't believe your research. Your research is done for 1 reason and that is to discredit Moses and his 'face to face' education from God Himself.

Like I say, 1 hour with the original Creator is worth all the scholarly work that has been done for 4,000 years. Good luck with your research.[/QUOTE]
 
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ShamashUruk

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I am sure that Moses used 'witchcraft' to part the Red Sea and 2,000,000 people passed from Egypt to the other side, and then drown 15,000 men in chariots???

There is no conclusive evidence except that the bible uses the very words,
'face to face'. I believe Moses, I don't believe your research. Your research is done for 1 reason and that is to discredit Moses and his 'face to face' education from God Himself.

Like I say, 1 hour with the original Creator is worth all the scholarly work that has been done for 4,000 years. Good luck with your research.
[/QUOTE]

Regardless of what St Moses used to part the Sea or if that was even the real name, the point is that you believe whatever part of the Moses story that fits you best.

I also looked up the term "face to face" and it's not in the Bible, however there is reference to Moses and his personal God, but this indicative of how those polytheistic cultures worked.

Back to my other daunting point, the conception which is currently universally accepted is that the name should be explained with the aid of the Egyptian word "msj" "produce", "bring forth", and that it is an abbreviated form of a theophoric name (e.g. Ptah-mose, "Ptah has been born/has engendered", cf. GRIFFITHS 1953:225-23). Side note: anytime you see the word engendered it generally has to do with Sumerian creation epics. However, as appears from Matt 17: 13 par. and Rev 11:3-12 Moses was considered to have been transferred like -.Elijah to heavenly existence, at least according to some Jewish and Christian circles. According]y his return could be expected in divinatory folklore.

In Rabbinic literature various views are found with regard to the agent of Moses' burial. According to a current interpretation Moses was buried by the LORD. This view is also attested in for instance. Pseudo-Philo and in Memar Marqah V § 4. According to another interpretation Moses has to be considered the agent of his own burial. In the rabbinic elucidation of Moses' burial, angels often
play a role as supernumeraries (e.g. Tg. Ps. J.: MidrR. Deut. 11:10).

This simply indicates inconsistencies within Mosaic literature, and as to what Moses is eluded to in each cultural setting.

How can I discredit a person that is ambiguously shown in ancient literature itself? In other words Moses isn't shown historically and clearly and so Sectarian Monotheist's have to adopt Moses to fit their target audience, your statement makes very little sense.
 
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Peter1000

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ShamashUruk says:
I also looked up the term "face to face" and it's not in the Bible, however there is reference to Moses and his personal God, but this indicative of how those polytheistic cultures worked.

This is a good scripture that says that God spake with Moses 'face to face' and it even goes further to make the point that God is talking to Moses 'face to face' as a man talketh to his friend. That usually sums up the conversation, it is detailed quite well. Read this scripture:
Exodus 33:11King James Version (KJV)
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

I have 6 other 'face to face' scriptures found in the OT, and not just about Moses speaking face to face, but also Jacob.

I really am not interested in your research into how Moses got his name. But Thank you.

your statement makes very little sense.

How much more clear can I make it. I will say it again:
1 hour with God in a face to face conversation about how God created the universe trumps, nay, smashes all the scholarly words that have been written about the creation from the beginning of the world until today.

If this is not clear enough let me say this:

God told Moses how He created the world. Moses wrote down the words given him by God, and named it Genesis. Moses did not use his Ph.D in Epic Cultural Studies and the millions of reems of scholarly books to write his book of Genesis.

If you think he got his info from the Babylonians, and Egyptians and Sumarians, then fine, I don't. I like revelation vs scholasticism.
 
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ShamashUruk

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ShamashUruk says:


This is a good scripture that says that God spake with Moses 'face to face' and it even goes further to make the point that God is talking to Moses 'face to face' as a man talketh to his friend. That usually sums up the conversation, it is detailed quite well. Read this scripture:
Exodus 33:11King James Version (KJV)
11 And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

I have 6 other 'face to face' scriptures found in the OT, and not just about Moses speaking face to face, but also Jacob.

I really am not interested in your research into how Moses got his name. But Thank you.



How much more clear can I make it. I will say it again:
1 hour with God in a face to face conversation about how God created the universe trumps, nay, smashes all the scholarly words that have been written about the creation from the beginning of the world until today.

If this is not clear enough let me say this:

God told Moses how He created the world. Moses wrote down the words given him by God, and named it Genesis. Moses did not use his Ph.D in Epic Cultural Studies and the millions of reems of scholarly books to write his book of Genesis.

If you think he got his info from the Babylonians, and Egyptians and Sumarians, then fine, I don't. I like revelation vs scholasticism.

Per your 'face to face' Moses has a relationship with his personal God as I stated before. But a clear "face to face" is only defined in that context. Jehovah in the Tankh is translated as such, and the verses are posted below. One verse is Exodus 33:11 and then again in the Tankh and can be seen as:

Shemot 33:11) Then the Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man would speak to his companion, and he would return to the camp, but his attendant, Joshua, the son of Nun, a lad, would not depart from the tent.

Exodus 33:11) And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

The use of the word most likely describes a symbol for a holy place or a dwelling house of the lord in biblical myths.

The Lord is in this context is either Yahweh or YHWH and in some context it could be El, most likely it is Yahweh (I'd have to check my sources but there is already a revealing of Yahweh at this point, unless it is earlier and then it would be Yahweh). YHWH the adaptation of Ba'al the storm God of Canaan, so yes Moses would have a connection, even Moses the name relates to water, and Ba'al (YHWH) is the storm God.

Education has very little to do with where St. Moses (if he did exist) got his ability to write such epics. It has more to do with what St. Moses is told by the Egyptians and ancient Israelite's.

The "research" you provide is at best circular and only alludes to biblical context.
 
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Anto9us

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So it's not likely that St. Moses had any conversation with any "God" figure, but that he was influenced by polytheistic Egypt and legends, epics, from older cultures where Egypt had engaged with.

Crock.

And as to Moses "engaging in witchcraft"

BWAHAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAHHAH HAH!
 
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ShamashUruk

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Crock.

And as to Moses "engaging in witchcraft"

BWAHAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH HAHHAH HAH!

Your statement of "crock" doesn't really refute anything at all. Also, one other issue there are extra Biblical references to St. Moses and witchcraft as an example the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th Books of Moses which are attributed to St. Moses working with dark spirits. But, for all intents and purposes, what you call witchcraft is not the same as it was during the time of the Israelite's.
 
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Peter1000

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Per your 'face to face' Moses has a relationship with his personal God as I stated before. But a clear "face to face" is only defined in that context. Jehovah in the Tankh is translated as such, and the verses are posted below. One verse is Exodus 33:11 and then again in the Tankh and can be seen as:

Shemot 33:11) Then the Lord would speak to Moses face to face, as a man would speak to his companion, and he would return to the camp, but his attendant, Joshua, the son of Nun, a lad, would not depart from the tent.

Exodus 33:11) And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.

The use of the word most likely describes a symbol for a holy place or a dwelling house of the lord in biblical myths.

The Lord is in this context is either Yahweh or YHWH and in some context it could be El, most likely it is Yahweh (I'd have to check my sources but there is already a revealing of Yahweh at this point, unless it is earlier and then it would be Yahweh). YHWH the adaptation of Ba'al the storm God of Canaan, so yes Moses would have a connection, even Moses the name relates to water, and Ba'al (YHWH) is the storm God.

Education has very little to do with where St. Moses (if he did exist) got his ability to write such epics. It has more to do with what St. Moses is told by the Egyptians and ancient Israelite's.

The "research" you provide is at best circular and only alludes to biblical context.

Education has very little to do with where St. Moses (if he did exist) got his ability to write such epics. It has more to do with what St. Moses is told by the Egyptians and ancient Israelite's.

Again, you keep trying to educate Moses by the Egyptians and the ancient Israelites. Moses's education came directly from 'face to face' contact with God, not 'face to face' contact with an Egytian or Israelite schoolmarm.

My research was only answering one question. You said, "I also looked up the term "face to face" and it's not in the Bible".

The idea of God speaking 'face to face' is also found 4 other places in the bible, so it is not a lost concept. I am surprised with all your scholarship that you could not find the phrase 'face to face' in the bible.
 
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ShamashUruk

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Again, you keep trying to educate Moses by the Egyptians and the ancient Israelites. Moses's education came directly from 'face to face' contact with God, not 'face to face' contact with an Egytian or Israelite schoolmarm.

My research was only answering one question. You said, "I also looked up the term "face to face" and it's not in the Bible".

The idea of God speaking 'face to face' is also found 4 other places in the bible, so it is not a lost concept. I am surprised with all your scholarship that you could not find the phrase 'face to face' in the bible.

The term "face to face" was not what you were answering, you brought that up much later. I am only explaining that even if the term "face to face" is used to describe St. Moses speaking with "God" this isn't a foreign concept in those cultures, each person worshiped a Personal God, as in each city-state they would have worshiped a God figure (this includes Egypt) hence, there is no issue I have with St. Moses speaking to a personal God. The writing in the book(s) of Genesis and throughout the Old Testament are a reflection of those times. So yes I agree that St. Moses was speaking with his personal God, which is not named even in the Bible. "God" is a broad term and therefore should be viewed as such, hence we can only know that it is most likely that St. Moses was "face to face" with YHWH and is earlier called Ba'al the storm God.
 
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Peter1000

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The term "face to face" was not what you were answering, you brought that up much later. I am only explaining that even if the term "face to face" is used to describe St. Moses speaking with "God" this isn't a foreign concept in those cultures, each person worshiped a Personal God, as in each city-state they would have worshiped a God figure (this includes Egypt) hence, there is no issue I have with St. Moses speaking to a personal God. The writing in the book(s) of Genesis and throughout the Old Testament are a reflection of those times. So yes I agree that St. Moses was speaking with his personal God, which is not named even in the Bible. "God" is a broad term and therefore should be viewed as such, hence we can only know that it is most likely that St. Moses was "face to face" with YHWH and is earlier called Ba'al the storm God.
So do you think that Moses was speaking to his personal idol (God figure)
face to face?

It may be that the Egyptians or Sumerians or Babylonians equated Ba'al and YHWH on the same level, but certainly not the Israelites.

YHWH in many scriptures castigated the Israelites for worshiping idols such as Ba'al.

As far as I know, YHWH hated Ba'al, and warned Israel not to worship him. Ba'al was an idol made of hands. YHWH was a living God, who spoke to Moses 'face to face', and Moses was preserved.
 
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