Is Speaking In Tongues Biblical Today?

[swordsman1]

Now you may feel insulted (and so you probably should) but as I spend a fair amount of time with the various commentaries and journal articles on First Corinthians 12, 13 & 14 [I currently own about 80 such commentaries] then I am more than competent to make such an observation and I will continue to do so until I meet with the Lord. As I said previously, I also hear similar objections from those who promote homosexuality, that God is dead, universalism and that Jesus is not the only way to the Father, so am I perturbed that I am upsetting a few cessationists, not really.

Homosexuals and the like don't feel offended because we insult them, but because we confront them with the scriptures. But you however just throw insults...and that is simply bad manners and rude. Your repeated use of the ad-hominem fallacy is because you are unable to refute cessationism and so you attack us with mocking insults and unfounded derogatory accusations instead, no doubt hoping that enough mud will stick and might deter others.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Homosexuals and the like don't feel offended because we insult them, but because we confront them with the scriptures. But you just throw insults...and that is simply bad manners and rude. Your repeated use of the ad-hominem fallacy is because you are unable to refute cessationism and so you attack us with mocking insults and unfounded derogatory accusations instead, no doubt hoping that enough mud will stick and might deter others.

The mere fact that the latter rain has fallen with all the Gifts and signs and wonders is refute enough.

 

[swordsman1]

He doesn't have to refute the earth is not flat. Just open your eyes, but mostly your heart.

And it seems you are guilty of the same fallacy.

 

[1stcenturylady]

And it seems you are guilty of the same fallacy.

Some things are just fact. We are merely speaking the truth.

 

[swordsman1]

Some things are just fact. We are merely speaking the truth. Your heart is closed.

Ditto.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Ditto.

..

 

[swordsman1]

Are your hands clean of mud slinging? I think not.

The last time I overstepped the mark, I apologized.

 

[swordsman1]

Read Jesus letters to the seven chuches. They are church ages. Not until Philadelphia did the church begin to believe and KEEP His Word.

Where does it say that the gifts would be removed from the other six churches?

 

[swordsman1]

1 Corinthians 12, no; Mark 16, yes. Two different manifestations of speaking in tongues are described in Scripture if you have an open mind and want to see why. I asked these questions for 7 years, and God showed me the answers.

Romans 12 are Gifts from the Father to everyone. Look at Adam Lambert's voice. That is from God, but he is a homosexual and will go to hell if he doesn't change.

1 Corinthians 12 are Gifts from the Holy Spirit to Christians.

Epheshians 4 are Gifts from Jesus for the Church.

So now we have 3 types of apostle, 3 types of prophet, 3 types of teacher - the 1 Cor 12 types, the Rom 12 types, and the Eph 4 types? You seem to want to arbitrarily and without warrant divide each gift into all sorts of different types in order to suit your agenda when the bible makes no such distinction. I've already disproved your theory that there is a distinction between tongues FROM God and TO God. I am still waiting for your response on that one.

 

[swordsman1]

I think I can answer for him of what he believes.

1 Corinthians 13 (remember chapter changes didn't happen for hundreds of years) verse one, says tongues of men and of ANGELS. You've already given your opinion that angels was merely an exaggeration. Let's move on.

1 Corinthians 14:2 says "no man understands."

I'm not debating this, I just think I know what Biblicist believes. I believe it is both men and angels. He may not. Maybe his opinion is that MEN is the "exaggeration." LOL

1 Cor 14:2 is not proof that tongues is a non-human language. The context of Ch14 is unrecognized tongues spoken in the CONGREGATION. So where it says "no man understands" it doesn't mean no one on the face of the earth, but rather no one in the congregation. If someone spoke Swahili in my church no one would understand but that doesn't mean someone from Africa wouldn't understand it.

 

[Major1]

Thank you for laying out so beautifully what you believe. Of course I disagree. But I'm not going to continue to go over each number because I already have. You know my stance. I know your stance. I praise God I no longer hold to your stance that I grew up in. Never once in all those years did I see one prayer answered. Now all my prayers are answered due to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

You said...............
"Never once in all those years did I see one prayer answered."

I am sorry to hear that sister. I have had my prayers answered YES and I have had some answered NO.
We prayed for our little grandson to survive but God said NO and took him home to be with him.
We prayed for my mother in law to survive her fight with cancer, but again God said NO and took her home.

Some of my prayers have yet to be answered so I wait and continue to speak with the Lord.

 

[rrobsr]

I would agree with you except as I have said several times, the original Greek grammar will not allow that interpretation.

The grammer of "perfect one" is neuter which means that the subject must be a THING and not a person or an event to come.

I'm not sure why the neuter gender precludes it from being an event (the return).

Also, here is the verse in Aramaic (for what it's worth):

1Cor 13:12,

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.​

The questions:

1) Does now refer the time before the scriptures were finished, or does it refer to the time before the return (the present dispensation of grace)? The latter would make more sense. It says now we see through a glass darkly. That sure fits. After all, does anybody have a perfect and complete grasp of the scriptures? No. That's because, now we see through a darkened glass. That's why so many divisions in the church.

2) Does then refer to the coming of the scriptures or the return? Well, if you think you know yourself as God knows you right now, then maybe it could refer to the coming of the scriptures. But I'm quite certain no born again believer really understands the greatness of who they the really are in Christ Jesus. It's just too big. But we will! When? When we see him face to face, i. e. the return.

Obviously the scriptures themselves haven't united all Christians in the same mind and same heart or we wouldn't even be having this discussion. How many thousands of different denominations are there? A bunch. Doesn't sound like perfection to me. I don't think that was God's plan. Too many verses tell us to be of the same mind and such.

One final point: I think it's a good thing we won't be too embarrassed when we get there and find out all the things we missed in the scriptures. We'll all be to darned happy to have any negativity. That we can count on for sure! I can't wait.

 

[Major1]

Our Scriptures in the New Testament have to do with abiding in Jesus, which is more than mere knowing He is God. He gives us the Holy Spirit, and through Him, rhemas by which to know what to pray that are His will. He has also given us His Word, and we can pray according to His Word for the Holy Spirit to draw someone who is lost.

Jeremiah 11:11 uses the words will not listen to them. That is the same as not hearing them. But if we abide in Jesus, we can know that He is listening, and will do what He has told us He will do. 1 John 5:14-15

That is not the point. You asked for examples of God not answering prayers and saying NO. Then you try to explain away those very examples found in the Scriptures.

God always listens to the prayers of the saints but He does not always answer Yes to those prayers as I demonstrated for you in those verses.

May I ask you with all due respect, Are you just ignoring those Scriptures or are you rejecting them because they are not what you wanted to hear?

 

[rrobsr]

Where exactly in Chapter 14 does Paul say tongues is a non-human language? I've asked you this question numerous times before and you've never answered, so I won't hold my breath this time.

You are right. There is nowhere in 1 Cor 14 that mentions a non-human language. However, there is such a mention in the preceding chapter.

1Cor 13:1,

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels (non-human), and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.​

 

[Major1]

I'm not sure why the neuter gender precludes it from being an event (the return).

Also, here is the verse in Aramaic (for what it's worth):
View attachment 206588
1Cor 13:12,

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.​

The questions are this then:

1) Does now refer the time before the scriptures were finished, or does it refer to the time (the present dispensation of grace) before the return? The latter would make more sense. It says now we see through a glass darkly. That sure fits. After all, does anybody have a perfect and complete grasp of the scriptures? No. That's because, now we see through a darkened glass. That's why so many divisions in the church.

2) Does then refer to the coming of the scriptures or the return? Well, if you think you know yourself as God knows you, then maybe it could refer to the coming of the scriptures. But I'm quite certain no born again believer really understands the greatness of who they the really are in Christ Jesus. It's just too big. But we will! When? When we see him face to face, i. e. the return.

Obviously the scriptures themselves haven't united all Christians in the same mind and same heart or we wouldn't even be having this discussion. How many thousands of different denominations are there? A bunch. Doesn't sound like perfection to me. I don't think that was God's plan. Too many verses tell us to be of the same mind and such.

One final point: I think it's a good thing we won't be too embarrassed when we get there and find out all the things we missed in the scriptures. We'll all be to darned happy to have any negativity. That we can count on for sure! I can't wait.

Because the 2nd Coming of Christ is an event and NOT a "thing". The grammar of the Greek in which it is written does not allow for an "event" or a person. We can debate this back and forth but the grammar is not open for interpretation my dear brother.

1) Obviously the word "NOW" in the original Greek is in the present tense for Paul. IMO Paul is saying that as we are alive today speaks to everyone who is alive......"NOW", the living. Both in Paul's day as well as ours.

2) "Then" would of course mean when we die and go to heaven THEN we will have the fuller revelations in heaven.

 

[swordsman1]

1) Does now refer the time before the scriptures were finished, or does it refer to the time before the return (the present dispensation of grace)? The latter would make more sense. It says now we see through a glass darkly. That sure fits. After all, does anybody have a perfect and complete grasp of the scriptures? No. That's because, now we see through a darkened glass. That's why so many divisions in the church.

Now refers to the time of Paul's writing, around 55AD. Seeing in a mirror dimly is referring to the gift of prophecy which was present in the church at the time. Such prophecy only provided revelations of God to man 'in part'.

But we will! When? When we see him face to face, i. e. the return.

The passage doesn't actually make any mention of Christ or his return. There is no 'him' before 'face to face'. The term is referring to the analogy of a mirror (which were very poor quality in those days). Now (at the time of writing), prophecy is like looking at your reflection dimly in a poor mirror, but then (when completeness comes) it will be like looking at someone face to face. Prophecy will be replaced with a something far superior - the completed canon.

 

[Major1]

You are right. There is nowhere in 1 Cor 14 that mentions a non-human language. However, there is such a mention in the preceding chapter.

1Cor 13:1,

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels (non-human), and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.​

The apostle refers to a notion that was common among the Jews, that there was a language by which angels might be invoked, adjured, collected, and dispersed; and by the means of which many secrets might be found out, and curious arts and sciences known.

No affirmation is made here regarding the language of angels. Dr. Hodge in his commentaries paraphrased this as "all languages, human or divine."

That the speech of angels should have been brought in here could have derived from Paul's own experience in which he was caught up into heaven and heard words "unspeakable, unlawful to utter" as seen in 2 Corinthians 12:4.

There is also an assumption here that "angels are superior in all respects to men." Thus, Paul made his argument more overwhelming with the contrast between the tongues of angels and the distressing, misuse of tongues in the Corinth church.

 

[rrobsr]

Because the 2nd Coming of Christ is an event and NOT a "thing". The grammar of the Greek in which it is written does not allow for an "event" or a person. We can debate this back and forth but the grammar is not open for interpretation my dear brother.

1) Obviously the word "NOW" in the original Greek is in the present tense for Paul. IMO Paul is saying that as we are alive today speaks to everyone who is alive......"NOW", the living. Both in Paul's day as well as ours.

2) "Then" would of course mean when we die and go to heaven THEN we will have the fuller revelations in heaven.

So now (after Paul and NT written) you are not looking through a darkened glass? You have a perfect understanding of everything in the scriptures? If that's true, let me know when I can come to sit at your feet to hear the scriptures in a perfect way. Id' be thrilled beyond belief. But somehow, I don't think I'll be going anywhere. No offence. After all, you and I are in the same boat. I sure don't know them all perfectly. Like I said, it's way to big for my puny mind.

 

[swordsman1]

You are right. There is nowhere in 1 Cor 14 that mentions a non-human language. However, there is such a mention in the preceding chapter.

1Cor 13:1,

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels (non-human), and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.​

1 Cor 13:1-3 "If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing."

Paul uses five conditional IF statements in 1 Cor 13:1-3 which were both hypothetical (they were imagined scenarios, not things he actually did) AND hyperbole (the imagined scenarios were wildly exaggerated examples of each gift) - to make the point that even having spiritual gifts to the highest conceivable degree would be worthless without love:
- tongues, even to the degree of speaking the language of angels...
- the gift of prophecy even to the degree of knowing ALL mysteries and ALL knowledge (ie becoming omniscient)...
- the gift of faith even to the degree of removing mountains...
- the gift of giving even to the degree of giving up ALL your possessions...
- and even giving up your own life...

....would all be to no avail without love.

None of those exaggerated hypothetical examples represent the normal operation of those gifts. Paul is saying that even if someone had the gift of tongues to such an exalted degree that they spoke in the language of angels, but didn't have love, it would be worthless to them.

 

[rrobsr]

I do at different times in my walk operate one or more of the nine manifestations. I find it helpful to get information from God about something which is not possible to get via my 5 senses (word of knowledge). I also get information from God as to what to do with that information (word of wisdom). I've been known to detect devil spirits in certain people (discerning of spirits). I've healed people (healing). I've seen things occur that helped me or others that wouldn't normally happen (miracles). I speak in tongues in my private prayer life throughout each day (tongues) to edify myself. I've interpreted tongues (interpretation of tongues) as well as prophesied (prophecy) in the church to edify others.

Let me ask you this: am I somehow being tricked by the adversary?