((Not sure how you got this from what I said? Judas was given the very best opportunity he could have to accept Jesus/God's charity.))
((So in essence are you saying that Judus was not 'God taught' even tho he was chosen by Jesus?))
I'll see if I can show what I mean by going thru your original post...
John 6:22-71 is not meant to be an easy passage and it drove most of Christ’s followers away and even drives people today away. It would take lots of explaining and the rest of Christ’s life and death to help these people to become followers.
A good start that Judas could be the topic when Christ taught him everything but still he did not learn. Not having been actually reborn (like Nicodemus was not) would mean for Judas that it was impossible for him to understand heavenly things.
First and foremost you have to realize this was said specifically to the group of people being addressed at that time and place. We need to understand the truths Jesus was trying to communicate to that specific group and not just take it like it is a sermon to us today without need of explaining.
Secondly we need to keep in mind how Christ responds to questions and comments, because Jesus does not “address” the verbalized comments or questions unless that is truly what is on their heart, but Jesus knows what is on their heart and address that specifically to help them move to the next spiritual level we might say. The response of Jesus may not be understandable by those being addressed at the time, but they will understand later even after the Kingdom comes to them on the day of Pentecost and even after that.
As was Jesus' way
The masses are a very fickle group, so Jesus is not trying to amass a large following of them at this time, but the emphasis will always be on the small group (12 and 120).
In the end we have this:
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
Are we saying these disciples who turned back at this time are lost forever? Was Nicodemus lost forever after going to Christ at night?
Do you think Jesus looked at the hearts of all those and found only 11 elect, so He drives off the rest?
The encounter in John 6 comes fairly early in Christ’s ministry, so how much knowledge of Christ can the person have to build his/her faith on and what did they “believe” about Christ at this time?
His disciples were made up of many besides the twelve, some followed sometimes (as did the twelve at first also) till the end of His ministry when there was a band of followers who went everywhere with Him. The ones mentioned here were focused on the flesh only and it's needs. I think Jesus addresses the need for that to be put to death under no uncertain terms.
26 Jesus answered them, “Very truly, I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves.
27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal.”
Work in renewing the mind and aligning the spirit not on the flesh. Judas was very committed to the money bag and the flesh needs it fulfilled.
Christ needs to get his group of followers down to those truly committed, since there is a long road ahead and He does not need lots “fans” needing lots of babying (He has enough of that with the 12).
Christ is not going to lie to the group or order them away, but, like God does, will allow them to leave of their own free will (it will be by there choice and they will not be able to later blame Jesus).
He had the prime example of 'their kind' in Judas
We talk about “works” and “faith only” but Jesus explains it with: 28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Believe is the verb of the noun “Faith” so it means the same thing.
Judas's faith was not as Peter's "where else can we go"`because Judas did eventually go elsewhere outside of the group to enact his own plans.
“Believe or faith” is not really a “work” you do (doing something to earn a wage) and the people would not recognize it as a “work” the same as we do not recognize faith as a work. In the Kingdom that comes with Pentecost (and has always really been the case), faith will be the only thing the person does bring to relationship which is not a “work” as defined by man.
Faith is also God-given so would be the beginning of God-taught it would seem.
They ask a strait forward honest question which Jesus answers directly, but they asked “What must we do…” and Jesus did not answer “you can do nothing”, which seems to be the correct Calvin answer?
I would think so.
The “ye believe” is referring to those who asked Him and they will also walk away, so could they have believe or is Jesus misleading them by telling them to do something they cannot do?
Let’s look at your specific verses:
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
And
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
They asked Him
30 So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing?
He answered
35 Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Placing that crowd outside of those who saw Him and believed. They only saw the physical and not the spiritual bread.
If someone leaves it will not be Christ’s fault since He did not cast them out or lose them, so the question is who is the Father “giving to Jesus”?
32…. it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
40. For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life
45. …They will all be taught by God. Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
All those that hear, see, learn and believe come (are given) to Jesus and it is the Father’s doing, since it is God who “taught” them.
God opened spiritual eyes.
This is not saying those God implanted with faith and knowledge or a soft heart, but who were taught and believed.
This is perhaps where I have misunderstood, because in this sense Judas would have been God-taught by the fact that he was Jesus-taught but the implication I had first gotten from it was that it was not spiritually discerned. Thinking about it further I would have to say at this early point in the ministry non of them had spiritual discernment. Yet I believe that the 11 did think they were following God`s appointed way even at this time.
The question is thus: “How did this faith come about?”
All mature adults have a God given faith in something or someone, but not everyone directs that faith/trust toward the creator (again faith is not work).
Next verses;
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
“draw” is the same word “invite” and we know everyone at the banquet has been invited (drawn there by the Master), but some refused the draw (invitation) of their own free will.
^True
Next verse:
64. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jesus knows like God knows who will be saved and who will be lost, but again it will not be God’s or Christ’s fault since they do their part perfectly and really treat everyone equally, giving the same opportunities for the willing individual to fulfill his/her earthly objective.
Again the person must be taught by God and believe.
Individual choice
Next verse:
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
So did Jesus make Judas hell bound or did Jesus do all He could to help Judas not to be lost, but it was still up to Judas? Jesus knew Judas would never repent, but that did not relieve Jesus of His actions toward Judas to help him.
I don`t think that the mind of Judas was able to bring the flesh under control because of not being spiritually connected in love to Jesus. IE: he betrayed him with a kiss as the ultimate enactment.
These verses in John 6 do not take man’s free will ability away, but tell us more about what God and Christ are doing, their part in the process with “faith” being man’s part.
Agree
Not sure how you got this from what I said? Judas was given the very best opportunity he could have to accept Jesus/God's charity.
