What are Theological Liberalism and Theological Postmodernism?

[redleghunter]

But a lack of clarity is also a trademark of some postmodern writing. Their writing causes doubt about things that are clear in God’s Word, while intentionally being worded in such a way that allows the author to avoid an accusation of outright heresy. This is especially common when postmodern authors desire to continue to be accepted by, and to be able to have influence among, evangelical Christians.

Bulls eye hit.

 

[redleghunter]

Maybe we would disagree, but maybe not. Let's see. Here're the ones I think of just from memory -- "Love one another", "Forgive...seventy times seven", "Love your enemy", "So in everything, do to others as you would have them do to you", "love the Lord your God with all of your heart, and all of your mind, and all of your soul, and all of your might". There are more, but often they are more about how to do these in more detail, like giving extra to those who ask from us, our "cloak too". Is the last a 'soup kitchen'? Well, instead I would say it could happen during a soup kitchen, which itself is not a bad, but more an opportunity for good, the good being when we give food, to do it with love, and not as a mere accounting or showy thing ever. Illegal immigrants? -- We of course He said must "welcome the stranger" who are His brothers and sisters, no matter what, no qualifier, but any one of them, always. He made it clear this isn't a maybe or a sometimes. In the OT, we see over and over God commands plainly to welcome the sojourner in your land! No way to cancel that.

I agree with the above. However, a key piece is missing. When we help nourish stomachs and cover nakedness we should also be feeding the soul and presenting the 'covering' of Christ---The Gospel.

I think that is a great divide today. Many believe feeding and clothing the poor 'is' the Gospel. Frankly, it is not. It is what those who are already "Kingdom citizens" do filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[redleghunter]

I realized that an answer to the question I asked "Why do [liberals]" "outperform" is... at least for some, because they come to church (some not all!!) specifically in order to do good works, and this is what they do believe in (again, this only is accurate to some, not all).

Understand what you are saying here. If one believes 'good works' gains entry into the Kingdom of God, then it is important we should do as many 'good works' as possible before we die.

Probably the best explanation of this approach comes not from the Bible but the Qur'an. Perhaps Islam at some point during their failed conquest of the West, influenced some Christian doctrines of the time.

From: Weighing of deeds on Day of Judgment

Question

Someone asked me whether or not a Muslim would only have to be 51% good to enter Paradise when we were discussing the balancing of the good and bad deeds on the Day of Judgement. Please give me some more information on that because I was unable to answer that question.


Answer

"Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions."

Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {Then as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be heavy, He will live a pleasant life (in Paradise). But as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be light, He will have his home in Hawiyah (pit, i.e. Hell). And what will make you know what it is? (It is) a hot blazing Fire!} [101:6-11]. Allah also Says (interpretation of meaning): {…So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise).} [7:8]. He also Says: {And those whose scales (of good deeds) are light, they are those who lose their ownselves, in Hell will they abide. }[23:103].
Also, it is mentioned in the Qur'an: {… So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise). And as for those whose scale will be light, they are those who will lose their ownselves (by entering Hell) because they denied and rejected Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) }[7:8-9].
Ibn Abbas said: good and bad deeds will be weighed in the Scale that has a tongue and two pans. A believer will be brought forward in a good state with his deeds, and when his deeds are put in one of the pans, it becomes heavier than the other. This is mentioned in the verse: {…So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise).} [7:8]. The deeds of an unbeliever will be brought in a bad repulsive state, and when they will be put in the pan of the scale; they will have no weight, and ultimately he will be thrown in the Fire (Hell). [ al-Qurtubi ]

 

[redleghunter]

Matthew 25 is not a blanket statement covering all of mankind, as many have misunderstood it to be. Look at it again: ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these, MY BROTHERS (caps mine) you did it to me.’

Right. And I think Matthew 10 tells us 'who' 'My brothers' truly are.

So we should all be warned to not withhold our resources from those who preach/teach the Gospel to all nations.

 

[redleghunter]

There are certain things we've come to believe that *God* said.....when really it was just man's interpretation of what they *thought* God had said through the authors of the Biblical text (ordination of women clergy, for instance).

That sounds a lot like Genesis 3 talking there. IMMHO of course.

 

[Halbhh]

Understand what you are saying here. If one believes 'good works' gains entry into the Kingdom of God, then it is important we should do as many 'good works' as possible before we die.

Probably the best explanation of this approach comes not from the Bible but the Qur'an. Perhaps Islam at some point during their failed conquest of the West, influenced some Christian doctrines of the time.

From: Weighing of deeds on Day of Judgment

Question

Someone asked me whether or not a Muslim would only have to be 51% good to enter Paradise when we were discussing the balancing of the good and bad deeds on the Day of Judgement. Please give me some more information on that because I was unable to answer that question.


Answer

"Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions."

Allah Says (interpretation of meaning): {Then as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be heavy, He will live a pleasant life (in Paradise). But as for him whose balance (of good deeds) will be light, He will have his home in Hawiyah (pit, i.e. Hell). And what will make you know what it is? (It is) a hot blazing Fire!} [101:6-11]. Allah also Says (interpretation of meaning): {…So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise).} [7:8]. He also Says: {And those whose scales (of good deeds) are light, they are those who lose their ownselves, in Hell will they abide. }[23:103].
Also, it is mentioned in the Qur'an: {… So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise). And as for those whose scale will be light, they are those who will lose their ownselves (by entering Hell) because they denied and rejected Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) }[7:8-9].
Ibn Abbas said: good and bad deeds will be weighed in the Scale that has a tongue and two pans. A believer will be brought forward in a good state with his deeds, and when his deeds are put in one of the pans, it becomes heavier than the other. This is mentioned in the verse: {…So as for those whose scale (of good deeds) will be heavy, they will be the successful (by entering Paradise).} [7:8]. The deeds of an unbeliever will be brought in a bad repulsive state, and when they will be put in the pan of the scale; they will have no weight, and ultimately he will be thrown in the Fire (Hell). [ al-Qurtubi ]

Well, the labels cause confusion. Consider -- some that are 'theologically liberal' (the label here) do know the idea and some even embrace it very strongly that we are only saved by grace through faith, and others do not. A mix. The label is useless for that (and for most anything else also, heh heh). If anything we are probably more likely to meet someone that seems 'liberal' (the useless label) who knows and believes in the grace doctrine, and then....it's yet even more complex, because of the current wrong form of the doctrine (a work of the enemy) some falsely preach by specifically ignoring or omitting verse 10 from the doctrine as laid out in Ephesians 2, verses 8 through 10. It's a 3 verse doctrine, after all, not a 1 or 2 verse doctrine. So, just to add to the confusion, we also have the false version of the grace doctrine too, lately. It's all a mass of confusion. We need to leave it and just start using full and complete quotes instead of partial quotes.

 

[redleghunter]

Well, the labels cause confusion

They can.

Consider -- some that are 'theologically liberal' (the label here) do know the idea and some even embrace it very strongly that we are only saved by grace through faith, and others do not. A mix.

I would argue if they believe in saved by Grace through faith then they have at least one non-liberal theological view. Thus this would be a 'compound-complex' version of your label issue.

If anything we are probably more likely to meet someone that seems 'liberal' (the useless label) who knows and believes in the grace doctrine, and then....it's yet even more complex, because of the current wrong form of the doctrine (a work of the enemy) some falsely preach by specifically ignoring or omitting verse 10 from the doctrine as laid out in Ephesians 2, verses 8 through 10. It's a 3 verse doctrine, after all, not a 1 or 2 verse doctrine.

Indeed and good point. However, such a person as John Gill (hardly a theological liberal in any era) would agree with your assessment. In our era there is a tendency for opposing views to omit the obvious to win an argument.

Of course I would be keeping you 'hanging' if I did not use your example of Ephesians 2:4-10 (notice I expanded the passage further) and give my swing at what's going on. When someone wants to omit verses 8-10 they are most likely showing the 'doing' of salvation. That God is Sovereign in Salvation. One might point out from a liberal view that it is a combination of Grace and human good works. However, what is made quite clear in verses 4-10 is God is the 'doing' here. He is the 'horse' so to speak and in verses 8-10 we are the 'wagon' fashioned by Him to carry the load of His will and purpose.

Note well, even God makes the 'wagon' and the words "workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" make this clear.

Of course I do believe Paul as a scholar on TaNaKh knew well Ezekiel 36:25-37. I also believe Jesus Christ in His Born Again discussion with Nicodemus was referring to the same passage when He said to him “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?"

 

[redleghunter]

Well, that brings this to mind --

"....Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." Matthew ch 19

That exchange was one of the most sobering of all in the Gospel of Matthew. It truly pointed out none of us can attain perfection in this life.

 

[redleghunter]

The Pharisees were conservatives too.

Obviously not according to TaNaKh. They added to TaNaKh and ignored some TaNaKh teachings:

Matthew 15: New King James Version (NKJV)

Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, 2 “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”

3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

 

[redleghunter]

So, yes, the Pharisees were conservatives in a sense.

I think the water is muddied a bit as one poster points out using 'liberal' and 'conservative.'

Historically, the terms have been 'orthodox' and 'heterodox.'

I think this may boil down to the arguments of Biblical inerrancy and infallibility.

 

[Halbhh]

They can.


I would argue if they believe in saved by Grace through faith then they have at least one non-liberal theological view. Thus this would be a 'compound-complex' version of your label issue.



Indeed and good point. However, such a person as John Gill (hardly a theological liberal in any era) would agree with your assessment. In our era there is a tendency for opposing views to omit the obvious to win an argument.

Of course I would be keeping you 'hanging' if I did not use your example of Ephesians 2:4-10 (notice I expanded the passage further) and give my swing at what's going on. When someone wants to omit verses 8-10 they are most likely showing the 'doing' of salvation. That God is Sovereign in Salvation. One might point out from a liberal view that it is a combination of Grace and human good works. However, what is made quite clear in verses 4-10 is God is the 'doing' here. He is the 'horse' so to speak and in verses 8-10 we are the 'wagon' fashioned by Him to carry the load of His will and purpose.

Note well, even God makes the 'wagon' and the words "workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works" make this clear.

Of course I do believe Paul as a scholar on TaNaKh knew well Ezekiel 36:25-37. I also believe Jesus Christ in His Born Again discussion with Nicodemus was referring to the same passage when He said to him “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?"

Enjoyed reading again the passages you cited, and yes it's better yet with more verses, just as you referred to, verse 4 through 10. And I love so much that verse in Eze 36 "26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh." !!

And look at that wonderful continuation --

27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

How wonderful!

It's such a deep question to go past the fact that God created us and is therefore ultimately the creator of all our good works, as the creator, and then say that we do have real free will, but it really does seem we do, and we are given commands just because we do have a real ability to choose. If we choose to follow Him Who is good, then we will be aided, of course, especially as we walk in faith and as we trust Him and ask for help. The wording of the Lord's Prayer (Matt 6) is more profound than we realize at first reading. It's for deep and profound needs of ours.

 

[Halbhh]

That exchange was one of the most sobering of all in the Gospel of Matthew. It truly pointed out none of us can attain perfection in this life.

Yes, though here we can see the rich man specifically choose luxuries over the chance to follow Christ, which is so telling and disastrous for him.

And then also we have that wording "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." and of course that only is understood by having read from the first verse of that chapter, and then even from the first verse of that gospel, and then perhaps only having read at least a gospel once already, at least for me. It means I think that we are to actually put "love your enemies" into actual practice, for instance. Not to already be perfect, but to walk towards the goal He commands to us. But...we can love an enemy when we are on the path, even early on. An everyday miracle.

 

[redleghunter]

Nope. Working on the two commandments about which He said "do this, and you will live".

Right, and the first commandment has to do with loving God with everything we have: our soul, minds, and strength. If we love the Father with all we have, then we will confess His Son Jesus as the Messiah, the Son of God.

Luke 10: NKJV

25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

 

[redleghunter]

How wonderful!

It's such a deep question to go past the fact that God created us and is therefore ultimately the creator of all our good works, as the creator, and then say that we do have real free will, but it really does seem we do, and we are given commands just because we do have a real ability to choose. If we choose to follow Him Who is good, then we will be aided, of course, especially as we walk in faith and as we trust Him and ask for help. The wording of the Lord's Prayer (Matt 6) is more profound than we realize at first reading. It's for deep and profound needs of ours.

Paul refers to our 'will' as either in bondage to sin or bondage to God:

Romans 6: NKJV

20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[redleghunter]

What people may be observing....as far as those that are of a "liberal" position acting more, is that a large part of the liberal belief system is a stance of freedom, equality, and justice for all. We believe that Jesus taught to "go to those in the margins" and upend the typical social hierarchy (last are first....etc). That takes action. I was so gobsmacked when I originally saw, here, all the contempt for "social justice". That seems pretty counter to the Gospel.

The problem with the SJ movement is that it is secular and the works are glorified by man for man and not for the Glory of God. I would also offer there is nothing really Christlike about demanding other people's money be used to help the poor.

The real SJ movement are barefoot mendicants using their own resources and donations collected from cheerful hearts to help the poor. Not using government to do the work the church should be doing.

It's the difference between "Jesusanity" and Christianity:

Christianity vs. Jesusanity: The Postmodern Temptation

People may think the SJ movement is doing works for Christ, but given the bed fellows kept who are not Christians this is highly suspect.

I believe the SJ movement in fact tries to dethrone Jesus Christ.

 

[redleghunter]

Surprisingly enough, what I'm finding, and I did not expect it, is that the 'liberal' (theologically) members of our congregation are often the most hard working in contributing and including also doing good works.

No doubt your experience. Let's look at it objectively if we can do so. Some of the largest Christian relief and missionary organizations come from what is considered theologically conservative Evangelical backgrounds. Here are just a small sampling and what they do:

Help Families Fleeing the Fighting in Mosul

Emergency Field Hospital Sent as Christmas Gift to Iraq

Loving Care for an Orphan | Samaritan’s Purse Gift Catalog

A Brighter Future for Ebola Widows

Women’s Programs

Crisis & Disaster Response

Feeding Programs

Health & Medical Ministries

Water, Sanitation & Hygiene

Children’s Heart Project

Putting a Stop to Human Trafficking

Deadly Earthquake in Nepal

U.S. Disaster Relief

Getting involved in the local community:

https://cmda.org/resources/publication/crisis-pregnancy-centers
Pregnancy Centers in PA
Listing Of Crisis Pregnancy Centers In Illinois
Christian Life Resources
Special Delivery | Overlake Christian Church
Top 10 Non Profit Organizations that help Mothers
Creating a Cradle Care Ministry for Expectant & New Parents

These are a few examples of Christian ministries which span all 50 states.

Sanctuary of Hope:

https://www.jhm.org/SOHCares
The above is a grand scale example of after and future care. Others include Catholic charities and Samaritans Purse.

Becoming Adoptive Parents - FAQs
Counseling
Help Protect Vulnerable Women


This was just a simple search as the numbers are too numerous to post.

 

[redleghunter]

Sketchy. "Authority of the Bible" has just been a catchphrase for one's own particular perspective of what the Bible means, which is usually opposed to other perspectives on what the Bible means that derive their authority from the Bible too.

Isn't that what the serpent was getting at in Genesis 3?

 

[redleghunter]

That's what things like Church Creeds and Orthodoxy is for. A major problem occurs like we have in today's Evangelical culture that many conservatives try to make non-fundamentals fundamental, even to the point where they castigate the ideas that it can be shown historically that the original church held as "False Teaching". :/

As in?

 

[redleghunter]

You do realize that Jesus was seen as being liberal, right?

Incorrect. A liberal would not quote directly from Torah, Prophets and Writings (TaNaKh) to substantiate truth claims.

 

[redleghunter]

What I'm hearing is that you don't understand why we think the way we do about the Bible, so we must be like the snake in the garden, seeking the ruin of souls. That's a foolish, anti-intellectual argument.

That was not his argument, but if you want to run with that....