Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

OrthodoxyUSA

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It's tradition that Peter went to Rome. It's tradition that Paul was beheaded outside of Rome. It's Tradition that the Revelation was written by the same John as wrote the Gospel...and it's Tradition that "the Apostle Jesus loved" was John.


Umhm... don't leave St. Prochorus out of the story. St. John did not actually pen revelation. He dictated it.

Tradition

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Actually, I think Luther's act of nailing his Theses to the door said (and quite rightly so) "I believe it is absolutely despicable and abhorrent that the Church is claiming it can sell salvation to people. It cannot and is in fact doing something utterly reprehensible and abominable before God. Making merchandise of people." I agree with what Luther did and why, though I don't agree with him on everything.

If you think he was wrong to take the stand he did, I would have to wonder why. All those people who were being lied to in the very worst way imaginable, by a corrupt Church that claimed to have the ultimate authority to save souls, authority it did not have, and thereby claiming it could sell people tickets to Heaven for themselves or loved ones. Disgusting.

As for the idea that the Church was reforming so why should Luther have bothered, I dare say you wouldn't be able to give that explanation satisfactorily to all the thousands of poor souls who were sold a lie by Rome. There is no adequate explanation or justification for this and there never will be.

Complacency is one of the most dangerous weapons satan can use, causing people to stand aside and do nothing when so much evil is being perpetrated.

I drew the line at having a standing army, stealing from the Eastern Churches and torturing heretics as a means of reform.

I think he was correct to complain. I don't blame him for leaving... but when he started a new religion he threw out the baby with the bathwater.

Forgive me...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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It's tradition that Peter went to Rome. It's tradition that Paul was beheaded outside of Rome. It's Tradition that the Revelation was written by the same John as wrote the Gospel...and it's Tradition that "the Apostle Jesus loved" was John.

Question: Where does the tradition of a "Chair of Peter" first get mentioned?
It simply doesn't exist in any Eastern Church.

Forgive me...
 
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Vicomte13

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Question: Where does the tradition of a "Chair of Peter" first get mentioned?
It simply doesn't exist in any Eastern Church.

Forgive me...

Dunno. (Don't care either, to tell you the truth.)
 
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amariselle

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I drew the line at having a standing army, stealing from the Eastern Churches and torturing heretics as a means of reform.

I think he was correct to complain. I don't blame him for leaving... but when he started a new religion he threw out the baby with the bathwater.

Forgive me...

I don't believe it was actually ever his intention to start a "new religion." However, I specifically said I do not agree with everything he said or did, nor do I fail to acknowledge the evil done on both "sides" of the issue.

Through everything, however, God has always had His faithful remnant, and His promise still stands true, the "gates of Hell" have not and will not prevail.
 
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Phil 1:21

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No, you were right. Luke never signed anything he wrote as "Luke". It's Tradition that assigns the third Gospel to Luke. And then tradition that assigns the role of "doctor" to Luke.

There's nothing in the Gospel of Luke that says that its author was a doctor.

In fact, it's Tradition - just tradition - that tells us that Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, respectively, wrote the various Gospels. Paul only named himself as the author in a couple of the letters. The other letters are ascribed to their authors by Tradition.

Tradition tells us that Peter was crucified head down.

Tradition tells us THAT the Apostles were killed, and how. Acts tells us of the death of James, but the deaths of the others are not in Scripture.

Virtually everything that we "know" about the early Church comes from Tradition.

Good stuff. Thanks.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Through everything, however, God has always had His faithful remnant, and His promise still stands true, the "gates of Hell" have not and will not prevail.

Does that include these guys?

Act 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

They stand as exclusive.

Forgive me...
 
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amariselle

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Does that include these guys?

Act 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

They stand as exclusive.

Forgive me...

Yes, why wouldn't it? I'm not sure I actually understand what you're asking or why...
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Yes, why wouldn't it? I'm not sure I actually understand what you're asking or why...

Because they do not include others as you would.
See what I'm getting at? Antiochians are an exclusive communion. They would (do) deny outsiders.
How do we just claim membership with something that sees itself as exclusive?

Forgive me...
 
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amariselle

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Because they do not include others as you would.
See what I'm getting at? Antiochians are an exclusive communion. They would (do) deny outsiders.
How do we just claim membership with something that sees itself as exclusive?

Forgive me...

Who didn't include others? Saul (Paul) and Barnabas?
 
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Root of Jesse

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Actually, I think Luther's act of nailing his Theses to the door said (and quite rightly so) "I believe it is absolutely despicable and abhorrent that the Church is claiming it can sell salvation to people. It cannot and is in fact doing something utterly reprehensible and abominable before God. Making merchandise of people." I agree with what Luther did and why, though I don't agree with him on everything.
Technically, ALL churches "sell salvation to people". But that's not what Luther was opposing. Tetzel was playing fast and loose with the practice of indulgences, and clouded the practice. The practice is this: prayer, fasting and almsgiving for the remission of sins of those in purgatory. Tetzel was teaching that you could give a donation to the church and get out of purgatory for doing so. Tetzel was wrong, Luther tried to get something done about it. But it was never the teaching of the Church that you can buy your way into heaven.
If you think he was wrong to take the stand he did, I would have to wonder why. All those people who were being lied to in the very worst way imaginable, by a corrupt Church that claimed to have the ultimate authority to save souls, authority it did not have, and thereby claiming it could sell people tickets to Heaven for themselves or loved ones. Disgusting.
You know that if the shepherd leads the sheep down the wrong path, it's the shepherd that pays the price, not the sheep. The fact is that if you pray, fast, and give charity, God will allow for some remission of your sins on earth.
As for the idea that the Church was reforming so why should Luther have bothered, I dare say you wouldn't be able to give that explanation satisfactorily to all the thousands of poor souls who were sold a lie by Rome. There is no adequate explanation or justification for this and there never will be.
Well, it wasn't a 'lie sold by Rome'. Rome asked for donations to build St. Peter's. It was a struggle. Tetzel tried to get more money by offering incentives he had no authority to offer.
Complacency is one of the most dangerous weapons satan can use, causing people to stand aside and do nothing when so much evil is being perpetrated.
I agree with you, which is why I like to see more reform. The Church needs to reform every day, and never lose sight of that fact.
 
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JacksBratt

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The fact is that if you pray, fast, and give charity, God will allow for some remission of your sins on earth.

Fact is that if I ask for forgiveness..... in Christ's eyes I have no sins. Even without the fasting, and giving.

My works are only good for one thing.... glorifying Him.
 
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W2L

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The fact is that if you pray, fast, and give charity, God will allow for some remission of your sins on earth.
That sounds like legalism. Is that what the RC teaches about the Gospel?
 
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Root of Jesse

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Fact is that if I ask for forgiveness..... in Christ's eyes I have no sins. Even without the fasting, and giving.

My works are only good for one thing.... glorifying Him.
So if you're a Christian, and you struggle with a daily inappropriate contentography habit, In Christ's eyes, you gave no sins?
 
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amariselle

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Technically, ALL churches "sell salvation to people".

I'm not sure what "technicality" you are referring to here, however, I don't really care who or what it is that claims they can "sell salvation." If they do, I reject them because no one has that right, nor do they have that ability. So, I stand by what I said in regard to Luther being justified in taking a stand against such a practice.

But that's not what Luther was opposing. Tetzel was playing fast and loose with the practice of indulgences, and clouded the practice. The practice is this: prayer, fasting and almsgiving for the remission of sins of those in purgatory.

Nothing remotely Biblical about any of that either. So, I would still agree with opposing it.

Tetzel was teaching that you could give a donation to the church and get out of purgatory for doing so. Tetzel was wrong, Luther tried to get something done about it.

Indeed, Tetzel was wrong. However, Luther's problem with the Catholic Church went far beyond just Tetzel.

But it was never the teaching of the Church that you can buy your way into heaven.

That's debatable. In any case, Tetzel aside (and he does, quite conveniently, get all the blame), the Church was very much teaching that you can earn your way into heaven. No surprise therefore that perhaps certain people took such teaching just a step further.

You know that if the shepherd leads the sheep down the wrong path, it's the shepherd that pays the price, not the sheep.

Actually, I would say both the shepherd and the sheep pay the price for going down the "wrong path."

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." - Matthew 15:14

The fact is that if you pray, fast, and give charity, God will allow for some remission of your sins on earth.

Sounds like works based salvation to me. I'll stick with what the Bible teaches, which is that Christ's blood, poured out on the cross of Calvary, is completely sufficient to purge my sins entirely. Those things you listed are, for the Christian, already saved, our "good and reasonable service." (Romans 12:1)

Well, it wasn't a 'lie sold by Rome'. Rome asked for donations to build St. Peter's.

I'm sure that is exactly how Rome likes to spin the story now, washing their hands like Pilate. However, the very fact that the lie, which at the very least, was sold in their name, did not offend them or disgust them enough to prevent them from using the money collected in such a diabolical way to build St. Peter's, tells us their consciences weren't too badly troubled after all.

I wish every single person, Christian or not, who goes to see that "beautiful" structure, could really and truly understand one of the main reasons it is even there to begin with. That Basilica, for all its earthly charm and magnificence, is built on the souls of untold thousands who were in fact lied to in the worst way anyone could ever imagine. Rome did not care enough about that to actually do anything to seek some kind of restitution. They used that money without any apparent qualms or guilt regarding all those people sold a lie about their salvation.

It was a struggle. Tetzel tried to get more money by offering incentives he had no authority to offer.

Yes, what Tetzel did was wicked, but it does not excuse the Church that he represented from their own wickedness.

I agree with you, which is why I like to see more reform. The Church needs to reform every day, and never lose sight of that fact.

The Church needs to cling to the truth of the Gospel and God's word. We are in a spiritual battle and we cannot afford to be naive or complacent.
 
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OrthodoxyUSA

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Who didn't include others? Saul (Paul) and Barnabas?
They are all closed communion Churches. Every one of them.

Members only.

Forgive me...
 
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Phil 1:21

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The practice is this: prayer, fasting and almsgiving for the remission of sins of those in purgatory.

Yeah, selling indulgences. Does the RCC still practice this "almsgiving for the remission of sins of those in purgatory?" I don't recall ever seeing the practice when I was an RC, but I knew a number of people who believed in those injection molded plastic "pardon crucifixes."
 
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BNR32FAN

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So if you're a Christian, and you struggle with a daily inappropriate contentography habit, In Christ's eyes, you gave no sins?

A Christian that struggles with a daily inappropriate contentography habit. Hmmm I wouldn't call that the behavior or someone who is a new creation. If it were speratic ok but daily I would say that's someone struggling to be a Christian.
 
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amariselle

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They are all closed communion Churches. Every one of them.

Members only.

Forgive me...

What I read in those passages, is that they were in fact sharing the Gospel with the Gentiles. In any case, I'm not sure what exactly you are saying, or how it relates to what I wrote earlier.
 
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