God's Sabbath rest is not a weekly seventh day rest

[stuart lawrence]

Yes, God will not be mocked. If they truly are God's children He will chastise them to cause them to turn around. That person who shouted out "Amen" sounds like she had a Pentecostal background. LOL

Actually there were a few ex Pentecostals in the church. I was struck by how similar the service was to the pentecostal church of my youth. I thought that if sda worshipped on a Sunday and didnt avoid the Levitical unclean foods, plus accepted the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today there wouldn't have been much difference in the actual services.
The sda church didn't give an altar call after the weekly service, that was different also!

 

[listed]

The Bible says otherwise, no matter how you try to spin it:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone...the ministry of condemnation" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

The ministry of condemnation which was engraved in letters on stone is undeniably the 10 commandments, and Paul tells us that we do not serve God according to the letter of 10 commandments, according to the ministry of condemnation which was engraved in letters on stone.
Paul is saying in those verses that he was condemned for sin through the law of commandments. The law of commandments is therefore holy, righteous and good, not because it defines our righteousness, but because it condemns our sin.

Our righteousness is not defined by the law: "Therefore no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." (Romans 3:20).

We become conscious of sin through the law because the law condemns us for sin, as it did Paul.
Bible details do matter, and there is no 10 commandments in those Bible details you provided.

The righteous requirement of the law is not the 10 commandments. Gentiles obey the righteous requirement of the law even though they do not have the law of 10 commandments:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” (Romans 2:14-15).

The requirements of the law written on our hearts is love: “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

Love fulfills the righteous requirement of the law. And Gentiles, who do not have the law of 10 commandments, do obey the love required by the law, even though they do not have the law of 10 commandments:

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law...who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

The righteous requirement of the law can still be transgressed, even by those who obey the written letter of 10 commandments.
Nothing about the 10 commandments in those Bible details either, no matter how you try to spin it.

Excellent post.

 

[Doveaman]

A relationship with Christ is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith (Romans 10:4). What Jesus taught was not any different from what the Father taught (John 14:23-24).

The Father is Spirit and the Son is Spirit, and we serve God according to the law of the Spirit, not the letter:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone" (2 Corinthians 3:6-9).

It is important to follow God's instructions for how to love so that we can love in the way that God wants us to.

Yes, but we no longer serve God based on the 10 commandments which was "engraved in letters on stone". The 10 commandments is not the fulfillment of God's law. Love is the fulfillment of God's law: “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

Love fulfills the righteous requirements of the law, even by Gentiles who do not have the law of 10 commandments:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

The requirements of the law written on our hearts is love.

Do you think that the Spirit is in disagreement with what the Father commanded?

The law of 10 commandments was commanded for sinful man: "Knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners" (1 Timothy 1:9).

We do not serve God based on a law for sinners, we serve God based on the love of the Spirit. God is Spirit and God is love, and love is all that will matter on the day of judgment:

"God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment" (1 John 4:7-21).

 

[Doveaman]

Ex 20:7 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "LOVE Me and KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:2-3 "This IS the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

There is no 10 in those Bible details. Details matter -- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

ALL the LAW and the commandments based on the TWO foundation commandments "LOVE God" Deut 6:5 and "Love your neighbor" Lev 18:18

Exactly.

Love is the foundation, and the 10 commandments is the old house that was built on that foundation.

The old house has now been removed and a new house is now built on that same foundation of love:

"For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two one...by abolishing in His flesh the law with its commandments and regulations".."The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless (for the law made nothing perfect)...Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant." (Ephesians 2:14-15, Hebrews 7:18-22).

God's WORD is LAW

Yes, God's Word is Law, indeed the living Word is Law, and the living Word is Spirit.
Adam was commanded by the living Word of the Spirit, not the letter.
And we, too, are commanded by the living Word of the Spirit, not the letter:

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant -- not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills...which was engraved in letters on stone" (2 Corinthians 3:6-8).

SIN IS transgression of the LAW - 1 John 3:4... still

Sin is the transgression of the righteous requirements of the law, not the letter:

“If those who are not circumcised keep the righteous requirements of the law...who is not circumcised physically and yet fulfills the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law.” -- (Romans 2:26-29).

The righteous requirements of the law, which is love, can be transgressed, even by those who obey the written letter of the law - the 10 commandments.

The point is that just as all the Law and the prophets based on two commandments - so the TEN Commandments extend out to all moral areas of conduct as Christ points out in Matthew 5.

Let's look at the two commandments:

"'Love the Lord your God'...This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40).

All that is commanded in the Prophets and in the Law of Moses, which includes the 10 commandments, are based on these 2 commandments to love God and neighbor. Therefore, if we obey these 2 commandments to love God and neighbor, we do not need the 10 commandments, because the 2 commandments fulfills them all: “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles, who do not have the 10 commandments, do obey the requirements of the law to love their neighbor, even though they do not have the 10 commandments.

And basically - we are still talking about a Bible detail that even our own pro-Sunday scholars affirm. I.e. the obvious.
Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Both you and the pro-Sunday scholars are in error.

Utter nonsense. You are making the case that if God sinned before He gave the law HE would be guilty because HE has no past or future. there is no text that says "if God knows it ... then you are responsible for it even if he does not act or speak " and we all know it.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here, but we know that Jesus is "the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world." (Revelation 13:8).

Scriptures speak of Christ being crucified from the foundation of the world even though He was crucified many years later. This is because what God has determined beforehand is already in effect beforehand. This is why Abraham was a man of faith beforehand even though faith came later through the sacrifice of Christ:

“The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham...So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.” (Galatians 3:8-17).

Abraham was justified beforehand by a faith that came later through Christ, just as the whole world was condemned beforehand by a law that came later through the Jews.

By contrast - in real life we have
Genesis 26:5
5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

There is no 10 in those Bible details. Details matter.

Abraham was Not "GOD Living outside of time" ... obviously.

But his justification by faith was outside of time. He was justified beforehand, before the time: “The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham” (Galatians 3:8-17).

A total misread of Galatians 3 makes it difficult for you to accept Genesis 26:5 or the statement about "the sin of Sodom" in Genesis 18 and the "sin of Cain" in Genesis 4.

Gen 18: 20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave.

"any ol excuse will do" will not work as the "substance" with which to oppose the Bible - and we both know it.

And the objective unbiased readers know it too.

I do accept the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah. Sodom and Gomorrah sinned by transgressing the righteous requirement of the law to love God. Their perverted sexual expression was a perversion of the love God required. And they were condemned beforehand by the law that was later given through the Jews:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God." (Romans 3:19-20).

Every mouth, the whole world, including Sodom and Gomorrah, is held accountable to God through the condemnation of the law.

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous. The law was added so that the trespass might increase." (Romans 5:19-20).

The trespass of the whole world, including Sodom and Gomorrah, was increased through the condemnation of the law. The true nature and extent of their sin was made evident through the condemnation of the law.

 

[Doveaman]

No friend, actually I am not telling you what you have stated above. You are separating the English word "Holyday" which is one word used in Col 2:16 into two English words Holy and day.

What?!

A holyday is a holy day and a feastday is a feast day.

It doesn't matter if they are separated or stuck together.

This maybe where you are confused as it is not referring to a day (singular) and it is something I have never said.

But I do agree it is not referring to a single day. It is referring to the seven annual feast or festivals days.

The correct English word used in Col 2:16 is one word Holyday ἑορτή heh-or-tay' it is not referring to a day (singular) it is referring to a feast or festival (not a day)

Exactly.

This is the within context of Col 2:16 as stated already to show what Paul is referring to. He is talking about the Jewish annual festivals. Continuing within the verse; and in relation to the Jewish annual festivals; it is the New Moons and Sabbath(s) within a "Jewish Festival" that were Holy convocations that no work was allowed within the annual festivals.

I think this is where we disagree.

Even though the New Moon celebration was among the Jewish festivals, it was not a holy day/Sabbath like the seven annual festivals were. This is why Paul makes the distinction in Colossians 2. The New Moon celebration was just a minor festival that occurred every month.

"The gate of the inner court facing east is to be shut on the six working days, but on the Sabbath day and on the day of the New Moon it is to be opened." (Ezekiel 46:1). "'From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,' says the LORD." (Isaiah 66:23).

Just as in the verses above, Paul is making the distinction between the annual convocations (holyday), the monthly convocations (new moon), and the weekly convocations (sabbath days):

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Colossians 2:16).

Actually if you read my post 325 the "High Sabbath" is not referring to the seven annual feast/festivals.

Actually, it is referring to the seven annual feast/festivals.

It is referring to a time when a Holy convocation day from an annual Jewish feast falls on the same day as the 7th Day weekly Sabbath of God's commandment. Once again as shown above these days are not the Holy day referred to in Col 2:16.

Actually, they are:

"Therefore, because it was the Preparation Day, that the bodies should not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away." (John 19:31).

The "high day/Sabbath" here is referring to the first of the seven annual feast/festivals called the Feast of Unleavened Bread:

"The LORD's Passover begins at twilight on the fourteenth day of the first month. And on the fifteenth day of that month the LORD's Feast of Unleavened Bread begins…On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work…And on the seventh day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work." (Leviticus 23:6-7).

Jesus was crucified on the day of the Passover ("the fourteenth day of the first month"), and on the following day ("the fifteenth day of that month") there was an annual Sabbath which is referred to in John 19:31 as a "high day". This "high day/Sabbath" (the Feast of Unleavened Bread) was the first of the seven annual holyday/Sabbaths in Leviticus 23.

 

[Doveaman]

Absolutely! Love is the fulfilling of God's Law in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit this is the New Covenant of God writing his Laws in our heart (Rom 8:1-4; Rom 13:9-19; Heb 8:10-12) But on the other hand it is not an excuse to break God's Law. If you are breaking God's Law (10 commandments) you have neither seen him or known him because Jesus only gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him.

Your statements are self-contradicting.

On the one hand you say that love is the fulfilling of God's Law, but then you say that we break God's law by violating the 10 commandments.

If love is the fulfilling of God's Law, then we can only violate God's Law by violating God's love, because love is the fulfilling of God's Law. Get it?

Love fulfills the fundamental truth of God's Law. The 10 commandments was based on that fundamental truth, but the 10 commandments themselves were not that truth, they were only a shadow/reflection of the truth.

The love of Christ written in our hearts through the Holy Spirit is the truth: "For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

The love of Christ written in our hearts through the Holy Spirit fulfills the fundamental truth of God's Law, and there is therefore no more need for the 10 commandments, because love fulfills the Law: “Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law” (Romans 13:9-10).

1 John 2:4,
He that saith, I know him, and keeps not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

There is no 10 in that scripture you quoted, or even in the context of the scripture you quoted. -- "Do not add to His words, or He will rebuke you and prove you a liar" (Proverbs 30:6).

Are you of the opinion that God's commandments are only limited to 10 commandments, or that the 10 commandments are superior to all of God’s other commandments?

All of God's commandments are equal, and to violate one is to violate all, not just 10.
Sin is the violation of all of God's commandments, not just 10.

All of God's commandments are inspired by His love and obeyed through His love, and to violate God's love is to disobey God Himself:

"God is love, and whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment" (1 John 4:7-21).

Our confidence on the day of judgement is based on our love for God and neighbor, and not based on our obedience to 10 commandments.

If anyone is knowingly and willfully breaking God's 7th Day Sabbath or any of the 10 commandments you are not obeying God.

How can you say that after I showed from scriptures that the 7th Day Sabbath was willfully and consistently broken by the Levite priests, and yet they were innocent of sin?

"Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?'' (Matthew 12:5).

I don't think you are being honest to the scriptures.

The context of Romans 2:14-15 in Romans 2 is about the Judgement and that all are accountable to God both Jews and Gentiles and there is no difference in God's eyes.

Rom 2:12-13,
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

The context of Roman 2 is to the Jewish believers who were judging Gentile believers in relation to the laws of Moses (Rom 2:1-4). The next verses are referring to all man are equal in God's sight and all will be judged by God whether they know God's Law or not. "As many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified (Rom 5-13).

The context of Romans 2:14-15 is in not judging the Gentile believers if they have God's Law written on their heart (Romans 2:14-15) even though they were never Israelite's that were given God's Law.

You keep making SDA arguments that are not consistent with the scriptures.

"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12).

Paul in Romans 2 is talking about two groups of people -- the Jews who rely on the law and the Gentiles who do not rely on the law. Those who rely on the law will be judged by the requirements of the law, and those who do not rely on the law will not be judged by the requirements of the law. It's that simple.

It is interesting to note that we can sin apart from the law, showing that sin is not the transgression of the 10 commandment law.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." (Romans 2:13).

Paul is obviously not saying that we are declared righteous by obeying the 10 commandment law, because he would then be contradicting himself here:

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law" (Romans 3:20).

We are not declared righteous by obeying the letter of the law (the 10 commandment), instead we are declared righteous by surrendering to the Spirit of the law (the love of Christ):

"And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).

This does not say that God's Law (10 commandments) have gone. Only that they are written in the heart of the believer. If anyone is knowingly and willfully breaking God's 7th Day Sabbath or any of the 10 commandments you are not obeying God. If you are not obeying God you do not know him and you do not have the Holy Spirit. (1 John 2:4; Acts 5:32)

Paul in Romans 2 is, in fact, talking about Gentiles who do not have the 10 commandment law, but who do have the love required by the law written in their hearts:

“For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts” -- (Romans 2:14-15).

Gentiles who do not have the law of 10 commandments, do obey by natural instinct the love required by the law, and they become a law for themselves since their actions are inspired by love from their hearts as required by the law, even though they do not have the 10 commandments.

There is not one bible verse that support your theory here that Christians can break God's Sabbath. On the other hand 1 John 3:4 informs us of what we should already be aware of, which is that sin is transgression of the law. The wages of known willful sin is death (Rom 6:23). Jesus is teaching that it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath not break it (Mark 3:1-5)

"Haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent?'' (Matthew 12:5).

The Levite priests in the temple willfully and consistently broke the Sabbath-day law and yet were innocent of sin.

You place far more importance on the Sabbath day than God does.

 

[.Mikha'el.]

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